Feelings about outfitters

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Are you suggesting that the outfitters that own the allocations would abuse the system, and use the tags for their personal use? You could stipulate that no outfitter could use a non resident allocation to deal with that possibility.

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was actually thinking more of people that weren't presently outfitters taking advantage of such a system but I suspect that some current outfitters might too. People are people.

You're right, you could stipulate a lot of things.

[Snap Shot]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

We get our sheep tags the same way....except the kid at Canadian Tire does call you Sir.

It's not so bad down here. There are a few draw areas for sheep that offer exceptional opportunity but still loads of great general areas.

The kid does call you Sir...But you get a Anterless Mule Deer Tag instead of the right one you asked for..!!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Lefty Canuck, you are exactly right. It's that kind of greed that does absolutely nothing to help our sport.

Apparently you and I must hunt in the same area! Cause we deal with the same people and problems....frustrating when I call the guy to see if I can go after a mule-buck I have a draw for and I have been watching and he tells me "HHmmmm let me check my shedule.....um nope someone is in there that day"....yah ok.

Then miraculously he finds so many sheds in the winter.....and I know where alot of Elk winter around there. The people who own that land have hardly found any sheds in the past few years, and have had memory cards removed from the trail cams....I wonder who that could be?

Lefty

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Hi there. Couldnt find that info on their website. Could you link it for me? Thanks.

there is no link for that info on the APOS website. Each species and WMU is different, SRD would have it I suppose, but it would be a long list.

The ratio of permits alloted to outfitters runs between 5-10% of the available harvest as was explained above, (not counting Landowner permits, which in most cases far exceed the outfitters permits, and guess what, they can get one every year, so it isn't just greedy outfitters who get yearly tags).

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by hihi962

I am strongly against guides, I have had numerous bad experiences with them... period. when you involve money (especially unclaimed cash income) things go illeagal real fast. Look at the guide Bill Mancura from Andrew, Alta... took police and taxpayers huge resources and 10 years of illegal activity then another 3 years of undercover work to produce 57 charges, everything from exporting horns to shooting at night. and why..?
all because someone figured it was a good idea to make money off wild animals.
we are forgetting the principal here, we are hunting them for their meat. Guides should not make money from the animals.. they do not belong to them.
and what's the deal with their tags...? they get them every year, while citizens have to go on a draw system. boo to that! they sure have a good deal going for them (the guides) a land owner isn't allowed to charge money for access, yet a guide can charge for the hunt. complete b.s.
No matter how nice a guide can lie, most of them have and will bend the rules to get the game for their client.. why? because money is involved, and we all know too well how money corrupts!
I am a farmer, and trust me guys, these so-called honest guides are always offering bribes, for exclusive goose shoots on pea fields, and booze or cash for the big buck living in the back 40... and that's just from what I've seen.
If there is ever a movement to end guiding, I'll support it! heck, I bet they pay less taxes then Hookers do!! (no wonder they love their lifestyle).

I have the perfect solution that would solve all of the problems brought up on this thread; Let's get together and ask SRD to create a law where you can only hunt in your home county, that would really cut back on the competition where I live and besides, I just don't think any of us should have to share our area, or wildlife. Period. An Albertan from the north an American from the south, really what's the difference? Competition is competition! Right? You sound like one of those, "what's mine is mine, and what's your is mine too," type of Land Owner's. Let me guess you travel around to hunt, but don't allow hunting on your land? LOL

I just hope that no other provinces or States decide to do the same, cause someday I really want to shoot a Caribou and a Dall Sheep! I might even like to try for a Coues deer or a Rio Turkey for my collection, and I really hope those Alaskans don't get too protective of those salmon, cause I loved that fishing trip last year and it would suck if I couldn't go back and show my kids that wild and beautiful part of the world.

(I hope you know I'm joking of course, but this is the kind of hypocritical #$%# being spewed out on this thread.)

By the way hihi962, you are obviously a landowner, haven't you been told about the great loop-hole to draws where you can get buck and bull tags every year for yourself (only landowners can get this). The more LO's who use this loop hole, the less draws are made available to every day residents, and the great news is, there is no cap on LO permits, unlike outfitter permits.

One last suggestion, if you're so worried about getting paid for hunting on your land, go buy some outfitter permits. I'm sure there is some money grabbing outfitter that will sell you some permits and you can charge what you want. Like you said, it's all about the money! Don't be surprised when you realize that there isn't as much money in Outfitting as you might think, and you should probably be sitting down when you ask how much the permits are worth!

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Regardless of what the Alberta resident is prepared to pay, he can't purchase a non resident license, and use an outfitters allocation.

I think that should change. We should be able to purchase these hunts if we choose to and the Outfitter has surplus and is willing to take Residents. It would benefit the Outfitter as he has a choice to sell hunts he may not be able to fill. With the economy in the States tanked, I would guess there are going to be some tags going unused....maybe quite a few.

[elkhunter11]

An Albertan from the north an American from the south, really what's the difference?

An Albertan pays taxes in Alberta which supports the Alberta infrastructure, including your roads, hospitals, etc.Most Americans do not pay their taxes to Alberta. How well off would Alberta be without the oil rmoney?

[hihi962]

Originally Posted by triple s

I never have a problem filling my tags nor have access problems so are you go to say im doing things wrong .Don't worry you have just made it loud and clear you would like to be paid for access your upset that someone spends more time in field and can't figure out why the success rates are low!!

nothing further from the truth, I would never expect to be paid for access, if I did, wouldn't I shut my mouth and just accept their cash..? Just because you or I have good success rate, there are many that don't. I personally know groups that have been hunting elk for over 10 years and have yet to pull the trigger.

Originally Posted by H380

Don't sugar coat it , tell us how you really feel ,LOL.. As a farmer , and landholder , have you ever been offered a " bribe" or gift from a hunter for allowing him access to your place ?I'm not saying "guide" I'm talking hunter ..

Never been offered a bribe by a hunter yet. they have offered meat, or some sort of simple thanks only after they've had a successful hunt, but just as a small thanks.

Originally Posted by 3rivers

I have the perfect solution that would solve all of the problems brought up on this thread; Let's get together and ask SRD to create a law where you can only hunt in your home county, that would really cut back on the competition where I live and besides, I just don't think any of us should have to share our area, or wildlife. Period. An Albertan from the north an American from the south, really what's the difference? Competition is competition! Right? You sound like one of those, "what's mine is mine, and what's your is mine too," type of Land Owner's. Let me guess you travel around to hunt, but don't allow hunting on your land? LOL
...By the way hihi962, you are obviously a landowner, haven't you been told about the great loop-hole to draws where you can get buck and bull tags every year for yourself (only landowners can get this). The more LO's who use this loop hole, the less draws are made available to every day residents, and the great news is, there is no cap on LO permits, unlike outfitter permits.

One last suggestion, if you're so worried about getting paid for hunting on your land, go buy some outfitter permits. I'm sure there is some money grabbing outfitter that will sell you some permits and you can charge what you want. Like you said, it's all about the money! Don't be surprised when you realize that there isn't as much money in Outfitting as you might think, and you should probably be sitting down when you ask how much the permits are worth!

I do use the odd land owner tag, I won't deny it. but it doesn't work for any animal, you talk as if it's "a get out of jail free card" mind you I don't really agree with those LO tags either, but they are out there.. I wouldn't miss them if they went away. actually chief 3 rivers, you will never see a "no hunting" or "no tresspassing" sign on any of our lands. we are a decent size family farm that hunts, also on our friends and neighbours lands, I would be a complete arse if I ever denyed some access to other people.

ishootbambi has it right, we should all be on the same playing field (at the very least) a guide or outfitter should have to wait for 7-8 years for a draw just like everyone else, if he want's to guide someone on "his" tag, there should be some paperwork for him to allow a companion hunter to shoot his animal.
doesn't that sound fair??
as it stands all outfitters have a priorty of "99" since they will always get their tags allotted to them, even before some old fellow with a priority of 7, that fought in wwII, and lost his shooting eye protecting the freedoms you enjoy. (haha, i know it's a stretch, but could be possible)

what happens when the animals get reall scarce?? when elk or moose draws need a priority of 15 in order for a resident to get drawn.. are the outfitters gonna just give up their tags?.. I think not! they'll cry it's their income and livelyhood (as a result they will just triple their prices).

[iceman99]

Hunting permits and numbers of permits have evolved over time in Alberta.

It used to be that anyone could advertise they were an outfitter and take as many hunters as they wanted in any area. During that time many outfitters hunted in areas where there was no competition with locals.

When quotas on tags arrived there were general percentages that were followed by species. Outfitting in some areas of the province increased to occupy all the allocations/tags that were created in populated areas of the province. As wildlife numbers fluctuated (I'm most familiar with moose...) SRD would pull permits away from outfitters and try to compensate them with other tags. This usually ends up in quite an battle... for example if I only outfit for moose in an area and SRD tries to replace my moose tags with whitetail tags in the same area it wouldn't fit my business model. Or they may have to create moose tags in an area not adjacent to where I've been hunting. So they tend to not start the compensation process if they can avoid it.

Now that there are more Albertans than ever and more land is being used in commercial activities like oil/gas, & land owners getting disgusted by a lack of respect from hunters, access is a bigger issue than ever.

I see three issues that would come from terminating all outfitting/non-resident hunting in Alberta:

1) how would the lost license fee revenue be addressed in Alberta? I estimate this to be somewhere over $2,000,000 per year.

2) as hunting is really game management how would SRD reliably manage the # of game animals harvested? Game management costs would sky rocket if SRD tried to keep game numbers harvested at the level they are today. Non-resident success rates are much higher than residents. They would need more officers and a lot more equipment.
That would be in the first year or two, then other changes would appear.
Outfitters harvest more predators like cats, bears and wolves than residents and if these numbers went higher then there would be a major shift in game populations. In some areas ungulate populations would drop. Then Albertans might need to pay for predator control.

3) It would cost over $45,000,000 to buy back outfitter allocations at a fraction of what outfitters would claim the fair market value of the allocations to be. No matter what went on there would be lawsuits, lawyers would be getting rich and the costs would go higher.

In the end, if this is all about game management the existing system gets the job done with the costs for Albertans being relatively low. Any big changes to the system would cost $$ and have less stability for game populations.

[yamaha 1]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Thats not the case, unless you're speaking of travelling to another Province or State to do your hunting...

That is exactly what I meant. I know that an Alberta resident can't go though an outfitter. There are lots of opportunities every were if you can afford it. ( I sure can't )

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by huntfishtrap

I think that should change. We should be able to purchase these hunts if we choose to and the Outfitter has surplus and is willing to take Residents. It would benefit the Outfitter as he has a choice to sell hunts he may not be able to fill. With the economy in the States tanked, I would guess there are going to be some tags going unused....maybe quite a few.

Everyone seems to agree on this except for SRD ,and I think sheep hunter brought up one of the main reasons; some wealthy individuals may just buy permits to have an annual tag for themselves. Of course this could be regulated as needed, but it is a concern.

[walking buffalo]

This 2008 report is a good read to understand the true economic value of Hunting in Alberta. Those who want to quote Outfitter or Resident expenditures can find the numbers here.

"Copy and Paste"

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/csi12823/$FILE/Volume-II-Hunting-May-15.pdf

[hihi962]

clearly you're right about tags as game management, but when we have areas with priorities of 7-9 for moose or sheep/goat zones set up as a once in a lifetime hunt (if you're lucky).. I hardly think it's game management anymore.. so why are these guys getting tags in those zones every year? it makes no sense.
We have a nickname for outfitters.. we call 'em "wildlife scabs" looking at it in simple terms, allowing wealthy forigners more rights then it's own citizens... I dunno about you, but that sounds like the characteristics of a 3rd world country.
SRD is about as smart as a sack of hammers, look what happened to alberta fishing.

I am far too busy to start lobbying the government or start a petition.. but if anyone is willing, I'd definitely support the cause to limit outfitters.

[triple s]

hihi962
I don't honestly see what you are on going on about You want everyone here to be mad at the guides who successful at the jobs and feel sorry for those who have problems havesting animals.I'm sorry but hunting is a fun relaxing sport involves getting outdoors and you sir have lost it!

I have more deer hit crossing the hiway at my place every year then the oufitter in the area has tags.
Would it make you happy if i was upset with the Trucks on road because they are successful and feel bad for those trucks who missed one !

As for the 10 year Elk hunting group you know i would say there are in the wrong spot or just dont care.

[hihi962]

this topic was about "feelings about outfitters" . I've expressed mine, so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

[conner]

Originally Posted by 3rivers

I have the perfect solution that would solve all of the problems brought up on this thread; Let's get together and ask SRD to create a law where you can only hunt in your home county, that would really cut back on the competition where I live and besides, I just don't think any of us should have to share our area, or wildlife. Period. An Albertan from the north an American from the south, really what's the difference? Competition is competition! Right? You sound like one of those, "what's mine is mine, and what's your is mine too," type of Land Owner's. Let me guess you travel around to hunt, but don't allow hunting on your land? LOL

I just hope that no other provinces or States decide to do the same, cause someday I really want to shoot a Caribou and a Dall Sheep! I might even like to try for a Coues deer or a Rio Turkey for my collection, and I really hope those Alaskans don't get too protective of those salmon, cause I loved that fishing trip last year and it would suck if I couldn't go back and show my kids that wild and beautiful part of the world.

(I hope you know I'm joking of course, but this is the kind of hypocritical #$%# being spewed out on this thread.)

By the way hihi962, you are obviously a landowner, haven't you been told about the great loop-hole to draws where you can get buck and bull tags every year for yourself (only landowners can get this). The more LO's who use this loop hole, the less draws are made available to every day residents, and the great news is, there is no cap on LO permits, unlike outfitter permits.

One last suggestion, if you're so worried about getting paid for hunting on your land, go buy some outfitter permits. I'm sure there is some money grabbing outfitter that will sell you some permits and you can charge what you want. Like you said, it's all about the money! Don't be surprised when you realize that there isn't as much money in Outfitting as you might think, and you should probably be sitting down when you ask how much the permits are worth!

X2

[elkmakemecrazy]

3rivers I have a few questions for you about apos.

First, Who controls the outfitters is it SRD or APOS? By this I mean who do I apply too to become an outfitter. Who issues me my allocations APOS or SRD. I am probably wrong but I believe this is apos. If it is apos why does apos not keep a record of what tags are allocated to which outfitters and which wmu's are they hunting. Shouldn't apos keep a record of this? Are they obligated to make this public record or is this kept under wraps.

Second, Is Lloyd McMahon still a member in good standing? If so why? This question has been asked before without ever getting a good answer from APOS so please answer honestly. If he is maybe a little house cleaning would be in order to improve your image.

Thirdly, How is Cormack?

I look forward to your responses.

[elkhunter11]

Second, Is Lloyd McMahon still a member in good standing?

http://www.apos.ab.ca/directory/by-name

Look up McMahon,then click on the outfitters site that has a Greatwhiteholdings e-mail address. Your question will be answered.

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by elkmakemecrazy

3rivers I have a few questions for you about apos.

First, Who controls the outfitters is it SRD or APOS? By this I mean who do I apply too to become an outfitter. Who issues me my allocations APOS or SRD. I am probably wrong but I believe this is apos. If it is apos why does apos not keep a record of what tags are allocated to which outfitters and which wmu's are they hunting. Shouldn't apos keep a record of this? Are they obligated to make this public record or is this kept under wraps.

Second, Is Lloyd McMahon still a member in good standing? If so why? This question has been asked before without ever getting a good answer from APOS so please answer honestly. If he is maybe a little house cleaning would be in order to improve your image.

Thirdly, How is Cormack?

I look forward to your responses.

Thanks for the questions, I don't speak for APOS, but I can maybe point you in the right direction of someone who can, you can call the office and speak to the managing director.

APOS is delegated by SRD to issue the allocations and keep track of it all, as you remember in some earlier post, there was no limits or assigned permits on NRA hunters back in the 80's and early 90's. Now there is a set number of permits for each species and WMU some WMU's obviously don't have any outfitter permits for certain species. For example, there are no GOAT permits at all, despite the misinformation implied by hihi962.

Through this system APOS DOES keep track of every single permit, who holds them and in which WMU's. Every year each outfitter must make a full report of the use of each permit they have used. Of course the RELM system (the license vendor system) tracks which permits are used. Outfitters are the only "user group" that has mandatory reports for harvest data, so you can see exactly what the harvest success was etc. It would be nice if all the other user groups did the same, then there would actually be some useful usable data to help manage our wildlife. As for the APOS allocations, I believe anyone can access them and they are not private.

To answer your final question, one that is a continual hot button topic, you can get this information from the office. As I'm sure you understand, laws exist that dictate what can and can't be said about certain cases and individuals, especially on a public forum like this, and to respond to elkhunter11, I wish I could say that the APOS website is always accurate, but it's run by volunteers and is not updated daily. I can however say that APOS has issued suspensions and removed permits from a number of Outfitters and that system will obviously continue.

What I would hope everyone on this forum would understand is that this under the judicial system we all enjoy in this country, everyone has a right to a fair trial and an appeals process etc. and APOS has to follow the same rules. Surely you understand that the process can be complex and timelines lengthy. APOS does have a discipline committee that deals with every case of convictions by SRD and you should call the chair of that committee to get more details if you have questions.

Cormack Who?

[DAVE]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

http://www.apos.ab.ca/directory/by-name

Look up McMahon,then click on the outfitters site that has a Greatwhiteholdings e-mail address. Your question will be answered.

I Think lloyd is running everything under his sons name now our his grilfreinds.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by elkmakemecrazy

First, Who controls the outfitters is it SRD or APOS?

Apos is legislated to manage outfitters in Alberta.

See the Wildlife Act for the complete document. Specifically to Apos is section 3. APOS gets to set the rules and make the decisions for suspending or cancelling Outfitters allocation. Fox.... Henhouse....

http://faolex.fao.org/docs/pdf/al24757.pdf

Schedule 3
(Section 10(2) of this Regulation)

The Alberta Professional Outfitters Society

Interpretation of Schedule

1(1) In this Schedule,
(a) “by-laws” means the by-laws made by the Society under
section 10;
(b) “fiscal year” means the fiscal year of the Society, as specified in the by-laws;
(c) “Society” means the Alberta Professional Outfitters Society referred to in section 2(1).


Continuation of delegated authority, and delegated functions

2(1) The Alberta Professional Outfitters Society is continued as a
delegated authority referred to in section 104(1)(b) of the Act.

(2) The Society is delegated the following powers, duties and
functions, to be carried out in accordance with the Act, this
Regulation and the objects and by-laws of the Society:

(a) the issue of outfitter-guide permits and guides’ designations;

(b) the distribution, including transfers, of allocations;

(c) the issue of non-resident alien licences authorizing the hunting of big game animals;

(d) the collection of fees for licences, permits and guides’ designations;

(e) the designation of, and the setting of the qualifications for, guides;

(f) the cancellation and suspension of licences, permits and guides’ designations, issued by the Society;

(g) establishment of the kinds of protection of deposits required by section 57(2) of this Regulation.



By-laws

10 The Society may make by-laws

(a) setting the charges for services provided by it,

(b) establishing the form of any licence, permit or guide’s designation to be issued by it,

(c) respecting the provision of guiding services, including qualifications, restrictions and rights to enter into agreements to provide such services,

(d) respecting the manner in which allocations are to be distributed and transferred,

(e) respecting the manner in which licences, permits and guides’ designations issued by it may be suspended or cancelled,

(f) respecting the protection for deposits to be provided under section 57(2) of this Regulation, and

(g) specifying the Society’s fiscal year. Notice of objects or by-law changes


11 When the Society proposes to change its objects or by-laws
under the Societies Act, it shall give reasonable prior

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Apos is legislated to manage outfitters in Alberta.

Specifically to Apos is section 3. APOS gets to set the rules and make the decisions for suspending or cancelling Outfitters allocation. Fox.... Henhouse....

Super scary right there.

[j m]

Originally Posted by Huevos

I just got off hunt BC website. I have read posts on it a few times and it seems that many resident hunters despise Guide Outfitters and any non resident hunter. I even read some posts including Albertans in the group. I have read our Alberta outdoosman forum many times and don't get the same vibe. My question is... How do Albertans feel about Guide outfitters and non resident hunters, including other canadian citizens that don't reside in our province?

I have nothing against the hunters that want to come to Alberta to hunt. If I didn't live here I would probably want the opportunity to hunt here too. I don't like the fact that they can do it year after year while residents wait so long for tags.

As for guide outfitters, they are businesses and will always push for a bigger piece of the pie. The large $ investments for allocations can push them to aggressive tactics and questionable practices. I don't doubt outfitters bring in alot of revenue but do question how much of that $ actually benefits us. The small centers where guide operations are based see very little ecomomic benefit.

I would like to see tag allocations phazed out. Outfitters should only be a service industry with no say in who gets the tags. I think anyone coming from outside the province should be hunting only in general tag areas & only on crown land. Non res hunters should also have to enter a draw system in those general areas. If a hunter gets drawn, then they can book an outfitter/guide. Access to private land is becoming harder all the time for residents. Removing private land from guiding operations would largely rid us of the paid access issues.

Well that's my opinion on it. My only stake in this issue is to keep hunting opportunities of Alberta residents from becoming any less.

[ganderblaster]

I have no problems with outfitting being done ethically.

[Tatonka]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

An Albertan pays taxes in Alberta which supports the Alberta infrastructure, including your roads, hospitals, etc.Most Americans do not pay their taxes to Alberta. How well off would Alberta be without the oil rmoney?

It works both ways.... Canadians use the roads and other infratructures in the U.S.and don't pay taxes here. I have no problem with that... Many, many Canadians are coming to Montana to shop. In Havre on the weekends Alberta and Sask. plates are nearly as common as Montana plates. It's great for Montana and great for the Canadians saving a few bucks on their purchases. How many "Snowbirds" are from Canada and use U.S. highways all the way to Arizona, New Mexico, etc. every winter? Tons...believe me. I have no problem with that either.

[elkhunter11]

Canadians use the roads and other infratructures in the U.S.and don't pay taxes here.

And we aren't treated the same as US citizens either, which is the way that it should be. Residents of a province or state that pay their taxes in that province or state, should always come before people from other provinces or states.

[trigger7mm]

Let outfitters do all the guiding they want in Alberta, but only from Zama Lake and north!

[Tatonka]

When outfitted first started it was people with a string of horses packing hunters back in to where they could not get on their own... They worked hard and set up wall tents, packed in supplies, etc, and provided a valuable service That's true outfitting. Outfitting is not driving people around in a pick-up truck after they've relaxed in a nice lodge or cabin the night before sipping wine and pigging out on prime rib.

In Montana, outfitting is a very sore subject. I hate to even use the word "Outfitter" because that's not an accurate word for what we have around here. What we have is a bunch of bozo's who lease up the prime hunting land from ranchers and farmers and then have hunters come skim off the cream of the crop...... Hunters who pay to hunt do not do so to shoot some does and help balance the herd. They come for the trophies. The end result is that the deer congregate on land people do not have access to and after hunting season they end up in the neighbors' haystacks by the hundreds.... We've had more than one occassion where "Outfitters" around here have paid fines, lost their licenses, etc.... I don't know if we just have the losers around here or what....I'm sure they are not all bad, but I rate the "Outfitters" around here somewhere down there below whale sh*t.......bottom dwelling scum suckers.

[ganderblaster]

I'm not so sure its any different here.

[North of Owlseye]

How do i feel about outfitters? Not to warm, thats for sure.
I keep reading reports of good ones and ethical ones etc. I think they our like saskwatch - you here about em but never see em.
Let me count the ways: 1. locking up land thru paying landowners some way somehow.2. trying to runn people out of the forestry 3. leaving stuff in the forestry - its illegel to maintain a cash on public lands 4. planting lure crops 5. baiting 6. using planes and copters to spot game 7. running about with the main guys trying to put payed hunting into place in Alberta 8. |APos policing there own members 9. known, convicted felons keeping there status as members of \apos in good standing.10. pillageing an area of the forstry and then selling the allocation for big cash and moving on to anouther area ripe for the pillageing.
Somebody posted above some good wisdom - the corruption that comes from money being at stake.
I don;t buy this point that it brings good economy to the province either.
SOmeone else said its only 10% of quota but when the quota goes down the outfitter allocation stays the same so the 10% rule goes out the window.

Yeah not much use for the outfitting industry in this province. TO the Montana guy - its the same lowlifes here as it is there only difference is you can't lease land legally so they just do it under the table. Makes em more detestible to me.