Alberta muzzleloader seasons

[ganderblaster]

Muzzleloader hunting encourages a certain style of hunting which would be a one shot kill at a standing animal within 200 yrds with no immediate second shot available while reloading down the barrel. The rifle hunters already hunting this way should be delighted as they are guaranteed a season in which everyone hunts like them.All running shots are deemed unethical with a muzzleloader so this guarantees that all hunters will be either still hunting,spot and stalk hunting or stand hunting.That is why I would prefer it too a general season as it would put less pressure on the animals as the majority of rifle hunters push bush here.Again I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST PUSHING BUSH AND I DO IT MYSELF AT TIMES but it does put a lot of stress on the animals where I hunt. Muzzleloading season theoritically would give a longer season with reduced ungulate stress.

[ganderblaster]

Sheephunter to be fair wouldn't a 309 yard shot with a muzzleloader be equal to about a 600 yard plus shot with a centrefire?How high was the hold above that mulies back?

[spot and stock]

All this talk about muzzleloadeing guys wanting more for themselves sounds like the rifle guys want to keep more for themselves. I hope it moves to a system where there are no more tags issued but at the same time openning a season for M/L a couple weeks prior to the rifle season I see no problem with. With the number of tags issued or purchased not changing you have the same number of hunters in the field. Like it has been said with the M/L season prior to the centerfire would some of the old mature seasond animals not head for safer ground? Giving them the chance to be educated before someone blasts them at 400 yards, or more tags being filled before the giants come out to chase girls, this could be part of why saskatchewan has such great trophy quality? Anyone who has hunted Sask knows those deer are a different kind of smart, all due to being educated by hunters.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by addicted

Well alot of you guys on here are responding as if you only have "1" means of hunting. Be it rifle, or bow and are opposed to trying something new instead of limiting yourselves. If you just let go a little pick up a bow start climbing trees and waiting, or grab a powder blaster get in nice and close and whack one.

No one is taking away oppertunities to hunting just giving more choices to do the hunting with!!!!

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

what muzzleloader enthusiasts are looking for is more opportunity to enjoy hunting time. NOONE would be excluded. anyone with a PAL can obtain a muzzloader and join the fun

Neither of you guys are making sense. Both of you are trying to say that an exclusive muzzleloader season gives everyone more choice. Are you on drugs? You tell me which gives everyone more choice: an exclusive December muzzleloader season where you would have to want to use this weapon and then go out and spend a thousand extra dollars (gun,scope, ammo, etc.) to be able to hunt then, or the general season extended to December where muzzleloaders can hunt, and rifle users can hunt, and shotgun users can hunt, and.... you hopefully get the picture. Maximum choice is created when everyone can hunt using the weapon of their choice. An argument to the contrary is really just dishonest. I'd rather you just say "Yeah, we want a season to ourselves with less people in the field." At least that's an honest position.

I'll reframe the argument in a way that some can relate to here.... Suppose we have an extended season only for those who speak French. That doesn't take anything away from you.... and hey, you can always learn French and then join the fun! Why should I have to?

ARRRRGGGHHHHHH and the day was starting out so well.

[fishinmatt]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just so we have "truth" in reporting, here's a little research I did regarding muzzleloader seasons in the U.S.

49 out of 50 (98%)states have at least one dedicated muzzleloader season
36 out of 49 (78%) states permit the use of magnifying optics (scopes)
49 out of 49 (100%) states have at least one muzzleloader season that permits the use of in-line muzzleloaders and sabots.

At least that's the most recent results I could find. The trend seems to be a move away from restrictive regulations toward the use of in-lines with scopes. Hopefully Alberta follows suit.

And of those states that do have muzzleloader seasons what percentage of them have abreviated rifle season? While I havn't done the research to back it up yet I am fairly certain that there are more than a couple of states that have rifle seasons last a week or so (ie) Wisconsin whitetail rifle hunt nov 20 - nov 28. Should we shorten rifle season to a week in alberta we so that we can "catch up" with what some of the states are doing? Just because another jurisdiction has one law doesn't mean that it makes any sense or that it would work for our province.

[Vindalbakken]

Hey fishinmatt, I just checked Kentucky and they get 2 weeks for modern firearms there. But muzzleloaders, crossbows and archery all have their own time slot. 4 1/2 months for Archery, 2 months for Crossbow and 2 weeks for Muzzleloaders. Of course you can use your archery equipment in crossbow season, archery and crossbow equipment in muzzleloader season, and archery, crossbow and muzzleloaders in the Modern firearms season. Heaven forbid that the Modern Rifle folks should enjoy exclusive rights to the hunt for a short period of time.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by fishinmatt

And of those states that do have muzzleloader seasons what percentage of them have abreviated rifle season? While I havn't done the research to back it up yet I am fairly certain that there are more than a couple of states that have rifle seasons last a week or so (ie) Wisconsin whitetail rifle hunt nov 20 - nov 28. Should we shorten rifle season to a week in alberta we so that we can "catch up" with what some of the states are doing? Just because another jurisdiction has one law doesn't mean that it makes any sense or that it would work for our province.

there are a few things more to consider. check out the numbers of hunters in some states vs deer population. remember that hunting in the eyes of most governments is nothing more than a game management tool. there are many places where the number of hunters exceeds the game animals, therefore shorter seasons exist. look also at success rates for each weapon/ in the example you provide, combined with vins post, you can see that the least successful hunters...the archery guys get the the most time, muzzloader guys get a little more, and the most successful weapon, the centerfire gets the least time. it has also been said before that some states have weapon restrictions due to safety concerns of the longer range weapons. fortunately here in alberta, we have plenty of open space to safely shoot our guns at game populations that are for the most part doing very well. some exceptions are the bow zones around calgary and edmonton where human population density makes centerfire rifle hunting a little too dangerous.
and oko....that just makes no sense to use the example of a french speaking season. if you wish to use an example of exclusive seasons, why not use someof what alberta already has. there are arechery only seasons nearly everywhere in this province. if you want to hunt in one...get a bow. noone is excluded by anything other than personal choice. another would be the ability to use horses in some areas. the wilmore and k-country are examples. quads are more convenient, but only horses or foot travel are allowed. if you want to use transportation....get a horse. again, noone is excluded except those who choose not to get a horse.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Muzzleloader hunting encourages a certain style of hunting which would be a one shot kill at a standing animal within 200 yrds with no immediate second shot available while reloading down the barrel. The rifle hunters already hunting this way should be delighted as they are guaranteed a season in which everyone hunts like them.All running shots are deemed unethical with a muzzleloader so this guarantees that all hunters will be either still hunting,spot and stalk hunting or stand hunting.That is why I would prefer it too a general season as it would put less pressure on the animals as the majority of rifle hunters push bush here.Again I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST PUSHING BUSH AND I DO IT MYSELF AT TIMES but it does put a lot of stress on the animals where I hunt. Muzzleloading season theoritically would give a longer season with reduced ungulate stress.

I was watching a Canadian hunting show last year where they spotted a critter (antelope I think) as they were driving down the road. The passenger jumped out with his muzzle loader, installed a cap, and drilled the animal from the edge of the field (or the edge of the road, depending on your perspective).

To borrow a quote from "Chuck", I hunt with a primitive weapon for more opportunity, not less. The only reason I bow hunt is for the extended season and less competition; I would rather have a rifle in my hands. If a muzzle loader season is introduced, I will buy a muzzle loader to take advantage of the extra season and then revert back to a center fire rifle as soon as I'm allowed. I would guess there are many who, like me, have little interest in muzzle loaders but would buy one just to have additional opportunities. Muzzle loader only seasons make sense near heavily populated areas but I don't think we need province wide seasons. If hunters choose to hunt with a muzzle loader for the "experience" of it, they shouldn't mind competing with the rifle hunters.

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Sheephunter to be fair wouldn't a 309 yard shot with a muzzleloader be equal to about a 600 yard plus shot with a centrefire?How high was the hold above that mulies back?

No holdover required with a ballistic reticle but zeroes at 200 yards, there is about 15" drop at 300.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No holdover required with a ballistic reticle but zeroes at 200 yards, there is about 15" drop at 300.

with what bullet and load???

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

No, Sheephunter has already admitted his problem in this - he is selfishly concerned with his own hunting opportunities.

.

Ya, that's what I admitted

Holy crap Vin....I used to enjoy a good debate with you as you brought solid arguements based on fact and research. Not like you to stoop to these school yard tactics...pre school that is. Sometimes people have differing opinions Vin.....that's just life. No need to stoop to lies and inuendo. It's okay for grown ups to different opinions....

Originally Posted by hal53

with what bullet and load???

No need to Three Pyro pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave will drop 15 inches between 200 and 300 yards.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No need to Three Pyro pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave will drop 15 inches between 200 and 300 yards.

so...correct me if I'm wrong. with your BDC you're zero at 200 and it drops 15 inches at 300???

[Vindalbakken]

Sorry Sheephunter.

But to paraphrase your schoolyard argument thus far - "But Mommy, everyone else has one." Which is never true in the case of the crying child and certainly is not true in this case.

There is no way that a subset of hunters should be given preferential treatment over all other hunters because "I want it." or "Everyone else has it." It is still philosophically wrong. If there is a safety concern in a particular zone, then restrict the weapons in that zone appropriately. If there is a concern with underharvest and the length of season is determined to be the cause, lengthen it for everyone. All hunters get increased opportunity and use what you brought for your personal satisfaction.

The archers are already in there and they won't be taking it away. The crossbow enthusiasts cried enough to get their stake in the pie. The muzzy folks are calling foul - we need our "special time". The precedence is being set. Single Shot users unite - we need our "week". Restricted range cartridges get it together. Compile your list and pick your week. The standard argument will carry you through - Increased opportunity for everyone. How can that be bad?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just so we have "truth" in reporting, here's a little research I did regarding muzzleloader seasons in the U.S.

49 out of 50 (98%)states have at least one dedicated muzzleloader season
36 out of 49 (78%) states permit the use of magnifying optics (scopes)
49 out of 49 (100%) states have at least one muzzleloader season that permits the use of in-line muzzleloaders and sabots.

At least that's the most recent results I could find. The trend seems to be a move away from restrictive regulations toward the use of in-lines with scopes. Hopefully Alberta follows suit.

I would also say that a large percentage of those states serious big game hunters would give their left nut to be able to hunt in Alberta as we do under our current system. Why we insist on taking one of the best provinces/states to hunt in and constantly try and screw it up is beyond me. It's like reinventing the wheel. If these idiot groups keep this up this province will be like every one of those 49 states. I want no part of it. Use your friggin front stuffer in a current firearms season. If you like their system so much don't let the door hit you on the way out.

MY research tells me that Barack Obama is the president of 100% of the 49 states. Maybe we could ask him to be the president of Albert to.

[Vindalbakken]

I do find it rather ironic that folks who are adamantly opposed to a subset of hunters having special priveledge because of their race are so willing to argue for special priveledge for their chosen subset.

[338Bluff]

Crossbows in archery season is the stupidist thing they have ever come up with. All the guys pushing for it are going to gain ZERO!!! Mule deer and Moose will be put onto the draw. This reduces opportunity for a group of hunters that fought long and hard for this season. I think the main push has come from the gear pimps and the guys that support them in this are dupes.

Don't spout the drivel to me about all standing together. Holding hands and cum-bye-yah. If the AFGA is pushing this I'm officially done! Will be calling tomorrow to find out their position

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

Crossbows in archery season is the stupidist thing they have ever come up with. All the guys pushing for it are going to gain ZERO!!! Mule deer and Moose will be put onto the draw. This reduces opportunity for a group of hunters that fought long and hard for this season. I think the main push has come from the gear pimps and the guys that support them in this are dupes.

Don't spout the drivel to me about all standing together. Holding hands and cum-bye-yah. If the AFGA is pushing this I'm officially done! Will be calling tomorrow to find out their position

Whoops wrong thread...someone said the CB word and I went a little nuts

Muzzleloaders. Not happy about impinging on the archery season. Wish it was a December deal.

[qballs]

When do I get to have a stabbing - err - spear season??

[SLH]

It’s also interesting to note that of the Western States, which would be a little more equivalent to Alberta, Oregon, Colorado and Idaho require loose black powder only; very few allow smokeless or pelletized powder. The above three no sabots, open sight or peep sights only and my personal favourite 209primers prohibited.

But even greater than that I think Montana has it the best “No General Muzzle Loader Season”. Well done Montana.

There is plenty of existing opportunity to hunt with the ML and as yet other than “they load from the front” and “Other jurisdictions do it” no real argument has been put forward for it. So Vin I think as the school yard argument goes you are way above kindergarten as you have an argument against. Speculation aside no real argument has come forward for it.

As for my speculation of financial benefits derived by some stems from the obvious endorsement of products specifically used in muzzleloader outfits not to mention the increased ability of some to show off this new season to the masses in media format. I don’t think that anyone that can benefit financially from this being implemented should have much input on these discussions.

[SLH]

[QUOTE=chuck;525395]I would also say that a large percentage of those states serious big game hunters would give their left nut to be able to hunt in Alberta as we do under our current system. Why we insist on taking one of the best provinces/states to hunt in and constantly try and screw it up is beyond me. It's like reinventing the wheel. If these idiot groups keep this up this province will be like every one of those 49 states. I want no part of it. Use your friggin front stuffer in a current firearms season. If you like their system so much don't let the door hit you on the way out.

QUOTE]

Very well put we just can't leave well enough alone. Where do these ideas come from??

[qballs]

Originally Posted by SLH

As for my speculation of financial benefits derived by some stems from the obvious endorsement of products specifically used in muzzleloader outfits not to mention the increased ability of some to show off this new season to the masses in media format. I don’t think that anyone that can benefit financially from this being implemented should have much input on these discussions.

I didn't want to say it, but I agree completely.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by fishinmatt

We should be looking at creating new opportunities not infringing on other seasons that have been well established. Why not look at a late muzzleloader season? That seems like an easy and obvious way to add a muzzleloading season without causing rifts within the hunting community.

especially for whitetails! i think i like the muzzleloader season ideas but where they can come in handy for the species not even close to draws...if that means only whitetails then so be it...an few weeks or month of whitetail hunting(like all of december) to chase whitetails would be pretty cool....and give that same month to the bowzones for whitetails also (bows only would be fine) but we never get close to getting enough whitetails out of the bowzones so might as well get another month on whitetails there while we're at it

Originally Posted by hal53

so...correct me if I'm wrong. with your BDC you're zero at 200 and it drops 15 inches at 300???

It's got nothing to do with the BDC.....the trajectory of the bullets says it drops 15" between 200 and 300 yards. The BDC compensates for that drop with the additional reticles.

[Stinky Coyote]

a month of december for cow elk in 312 would be another decent spot for the muzzleloader season eh? along with whitetails and that would be pretty cool....maybe just does though?

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Sorry Sheephunter.

But to paraphrase your schoolyard argument thus far - "But Mommy, everyone else has one." Which is never true in the case of the crying child and certainly is not true in this case.

There is no way that a subset of hunters should be given preferential treatment over all other hunters because "I want it." or "Everyone else has it." It is still philosophically wrong. If there is a safety concern in a particular zone, then restrict the weapons in that zone appropriately. If there is a concern with underharvest and the length of season is determined to be the cause, lengthen it for everyone. All hunters get increased opportunity and use what you brought for your personal satisfaction.

The archers are already in there and they won't be taking it away. The crossbow enthusiasts cried enough to get their stake in the pie. The muzzy folks are calling foul - we need our "special time". The precedence is being set. Single Shot users unite - we need our "week". Restricted range cartridges get it together. Compile your list and pick your week. The standard argument will carry you through - Increased opportunity for everyone. How can that be bad?

LOL Vin.....I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from paraphrasing me...it's kind of sounding like a bad Woody Allen movie. I've got a number of reasons why I support a muzzloader season which have nothing to do with huge financial windfall that I'll come into if there is a season and nothing to do with my greedy self motivation but sadly, this thread has sunk to the depths of dispair so I think I'll refrain from posting them as I'm certain you'd have a field day with them with your wild accusations, inaccurate paraphrasing and inuendo. If your intent was to wear me down with your obtrusive attitude...you win.

My opinion is that a muzzleloader season would be a great thing for Alberta hunters and yours is that it wouldn't be. Basically it's two people's opinions that differ. That happens in the world everyday...get used to it...it's life. Throw a temper tantrum if you like........but the world will continue to turn and you won't always get your way.

[Vindalbakken]

Temper tantrum? Incredulity and bemusement here at the tantrums on the other side of the room coupled with the lack of reasoned argument.

If I currently hunt with a bow and a rifle, please explain again how I am going to benefit from the muzzleloader season? I contend that the season as proposed will detract from my bow season and result in longer wait times and increased draws on both my bow and regular season. A season tagged on the end would result in increased draws and wait times on my regular season. Not to mention I would need to spend more money if I was to avail myself of the opportunity for an "extended" season. Show me where I am wrong and how my opportunities are to be expanded, rather than not.

Or we can just go with "I want it, I want it, gimmee one too!"

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by qballs

When do I get to have a stabbing - err - spear season??

You aren't from Central Africa are you? I proposed some time back that we could put in a special time for poison-tipped darts in a blowgun if you could prove ancestral use.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Temper tantrum? Incredulity and bemusement here at the tantrums on the other side of the room coupled with the lack of reasoned argument.

If I currently hunt with a bow and a rifle, please explain again how I am going to benefit from the muzzleloader season? I contend that the season as proposed will detract from my bow season and result in longer wait times and increased draws on both my bow and regular season. A season tagged on the end would result in increased draws and wait times on my regular season. Not to mention I would need to spend more money if I was to avail myself of the opportunity for an "extended" season. Show me where I am wrong and how my opportunities are to be expanded, rather than not.

Or we can just go with "I want it, I want it, gimmee one too!"

Just go with the last statement Vin.....it will simplify things for you. As I said, you win....

[Vindalbakken]

That's what I thought. It is the only reason proferred thus far and no other is forthcoming.