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  #151  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:02 PM
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MountainTi MountainTi is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Big Sky View Post
I shoot a whack of 223 every year. This thread has got me thinking.

Regarding bullet choice, I have 55gr fmj's and 55gr Ballistic Tips in good supply.
The fmj's would not be legal. Would my Ballistic Tips be a good choice for deer?
IMO a ballistic tip would be a very poor choice for deer. That is going from experience shooting them out of a .270 many many years ago. Will never use one again on big game.
Love em out of my 22-250 for coyotes though
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  #152  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
Personally I’d prefer it if no one shot at me...
I agree, and I'm sure deer would have the same opinion.
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  #153  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
IMO a ballistic tip would be a very poor choice for deer. That is going from experience shooting them out of a .270 many many years ago. Will never use one again on big game.
Love em out of my 22-250 for coyotes though
They have changed the design from many years ago, I have excellent performance out of the 140gr in my 280's.

That being said, I would rather an accubond or partition in a 223.
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  #154  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:23 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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They have changed the design from many years ago, I have excellent performance out of the 140gr in my 280's.

That being said, I would rather an accubond or partition in a 223.
Several of the Ballistic Tip bullets were changed over the years, some more than once. The latest .308"-180gr are very tough bullets, but I wouldn't be hunting elk or moose with the 140gr out of my 7mmstw.
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  #155  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Suzukisam View Post
Enough to know not to leave the door open for anti hunters to have an excuse to try shut it down some more. And to know I don’t want to be shot by any of those round. And know enough about gov’t to know that every time they give you something they take 2 back. So if you can’t put Humour to it you may as well sit at home and become an armchair critic. Face it at the rate we’re going there will be no hunting in 2 generations from now. If you can’t stick together you will be decided and Conquer as in all others that have fallen before
I’m sorry. But this is completely ridiculous.
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  #156  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:29 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Its Intresting to watch the swing in caliber selections.

The firearms world has gone from big to small,,, the small to big a few times since the invention.

No matter what direction it goes, there will alway be Two camps at both ends of the scale and a few along the length.

The old saying from long ago.

A Mile long and a Inch deep,,, of course there will be sections a Mile deep to a Inch wide,,, this is not saying that the dimensions can't very either.

Just like everything in life, humans love to make things up. The best thing that can happen is having a study of science over the many years to back things up I guess.

It is well written articals that get the masses thinking, of course all studies and science gets put to challange with informed debate on the topic.

I don't fit this category since I run on the old system of something that works is good enough.

Big heavy duty trucks for the big stuff, sewing machine for the light things. Each of us pick and choose this balance threw out our lives with everything we do.

Ok, unless there is beans and wieners sitting on the table ready to eat, if it dosen't fit our needs we have the option of preparing something else, or eat whats in front of us,,, so to speak of that is.

A world full of options is nice since it allows for advancements and change,,, (Innovation.)

We can only hope that these moves are better for human kind as well as other living things on the rock. Ha
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  #157  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:31 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JD848 View Post
The king of the forest and the living legend has given his final amiable thoughts to another member which he does not have a clue about this person.To know it all and to dictate to others is a talent that very few have and he has achieved this goal with pure belief in his tiny mind.

Millions of hunters, yet this master of his own destiny has surpassed all of them without every pulling his pants down to take a dump.You have to be extremely tough to not pull your pants down to crap,maybe he does crap and is in severe need of an enema .

Not cool buddy boy,telling others day after day how ignorant they are and that they have no skills seems to be your favor pastime .How righteous you must feel pounding your chest over a lousy 223.I know a 223 can kill and that's no secret.
You know, you follow me around biting my ankles enough that it’s gett a bit annoying. Do you have an opinion on the subject or just me?
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  #158  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
There are a handful of characters who fit that description. If you don't agree with them and their want/need to use a small caliber rifle on big game, or choose to use a larger caliber than they feel is necessary, then you obviously are severely lacking hunting experience or the ability to place a projectile where it needs to be. Laughable at best when they have no idea who they are actually "talking" to. Some pretty tall horses.
Guessing a .223 would be a fine choice for a ram on a windy mountainside at distance? Be a slam dunk one shot kill when you're a legend in your own mind C""""?
So a 12 year old kid shooting a deer has now become a sheep hunter hanging off a cliff with one arm shooting in the wind. Nice.

Don’t like magnums? Small caliber guys?

338 Win Mag


7mm Mashburn


Come on!
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  #159  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:40 PM
southernman southernman is offline
 
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Default Culling with the .222

I've watched this thread for a bit,
25 years ago, I used a .222 culling thousands of goats and deer, never lost a deer, but occasionally had to shoot again, can't speak for results on goats, as it's a lot harder to keep track of a mob of 30-50 goats, when you let rip into them, I am sure I wounded and lost a few,
With the right bullet, carefully shot placement, sensible ranges, on smaller big game, the .222/.223 biased cartridges will get the job done, I've shot a few deer with the .22mag and one with a .17 fireball, as that's what I had in my hands when the opportunity arose.
I found soft points espically from Norma, and Sako preformed and penetrated well, much of the American ammo aviable at the time, was varmint thus poor preformance.
I mostly limited my shot to 100m, but would stretch out to 200 on goats, and a big red stag, (500lbs or more) 50m or less,
I still have that Sako vixen, it's likely shot over 5000 deer/goats,
Now my light rifle is a 6x45(.223) with 80 gr
How much performance there is between a .223 fast twist and a 75-80 gr, I don't know, likely not much, I let you know when I get my .223 back to NewZealand in 12 months or so, I've got mates shooting the 75 Eld, and 63 & 65 gr Serria, 70 gr Speer, with good results on red deer.

All the 6mm are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place for a light big game rifle,
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  #160  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sky View Post
I shoot a whack of 223 every year. This thread has got me thinking.

Regarding bullet choice, I have 55gr fmj's and 55gr Ballistic Tips in good supply.
The fmj's would not be legal. Would my Ballistic Tips be a good choice for deer?
Take a look at the 60 gr partion, 63&65 gr Serria, 70 gr Speer, any mono metal, or the 75 gr elx, I have matesusing these on deer in New Zealand, with good results at sensible ranges, I've personally seen a few deer dropped with the 65 gr Serria, and Partion, I would start with one of those.
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  #161  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by southernman View Post
I've watched this thread for a bit,
25 years ago, I used a .222 culling thousands of goats and deer, never lost a deer, but occasionally had to shoot again, can't speak for results on goats, as it's a lot harder to keep track of a mob of 30-50 goats, when you let rip into them, I am sure I wounded and lost a few,
With the right bullet, carefully shot placement, sensible ranges, on smaller big game, the .222/.223 biased cartridges will get the job done, I've shot a few deer with the .22mag and one with a .17 fireball, as that's what I had in my hands when the opportunity arose.
I found soft points espically from Norma, and Sako preformed and penetrated well, much of the American ammo aviable at the time, was varmint thus poor preformance.
I mostly limited my shot to 100m, but would stretch out to 200 on goats, and a big red stag, (500lbs or more) 50m or less,
I still have that Sako vixen, it's likely shot over 5000 deer/goats,
Now my light rifle is a 6x45(.223) with 80 gr
How much performance there is between a .223 fast twist and a 75-80 gr, I don't know, likely not much, I let you know when I get my .223 back to NewZealand in 12 months or so, I've got mates shooting the 75 Eld, and 63 & 65 gr Serria, 70 gr Speer, with good results on red deer.

All the 6mm are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place for a light big game rifle,

Your experience mirrors what I expected out of the 223.
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  #162  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:03 PM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Your experience mirrors what I expected out of the 223.
And read what he said in the end...

And to answer your question about how many people would be buying a 223 if it was aloud. The real question is how many Cabelas gun counter gurus would be recommending it due to the low recoil and cheap ammo... I would be willing to bet a lot of people would buy them.
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  #163  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
And read what he said in the end...

And to answer your question about how many people would be buying a 223 if it was aloud. The real question is how many Cabelas gun counter gurus would be recommending it due to the low recoil and cheap ammo... I would be willing to bet a lot of people would buy them.
I read it all. Did you happen to notice he doesn't try long bombs with it? I never once suggested it would be good for long range hunting, don't be one of those guys who makes up absurd scinarios to try and fit into your agenda.

There would be two different types of people working the gun counter, guy who have experience with a 223 and guys that don't. Neither would recommend the 223 for long bombs. The guy that has experience would explain things like southernman did, and the guys with no experience would say it couldn't kill anything.
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  #164  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:22 PM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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I read it all. Did you happen to notice he doesn't try long bombs with it? I never once suggested it would be good for long range hunting, don't be one of those guys who makes up absurd scinarios to try and fit into your agenda.

There would be two different types of people working the gun counter, guy who have experience with a 223 and guys that don't. Neither would recommend the 223 for long bombs. The guy that has experience would explain things like southernman did, and the guys with no experience would say it couldn't kill anything.
“All the 6mm are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place for a light big game rifle,”

Ether I misinterpreted this or....

And for the record I never once brought long range shooting into the conversation but since you did, do you honestly think people wouldn’t try it? Look at the other thread about using the 6.5grendel at 900+ yards. SD this BC that, little bit of math and the internet says it’s good to go. Now a days key board time seems to mean more then trigger time and everyone’s an expert.
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  #165  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
“All the 6mm are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place for a light big game rifle,”

Ether I misinterpreted this or....

And for the record I never once brought long range shooting into the conversation but since you did, do you honestly think people wouldn’t try it? Look at the other thread about using the 6.5grendel at 900+ yards. SD this BC that, little bit of math and the internet says it’s good to go. Now a days key board time seems to mean more then trigger time and everyone’s an expert.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot here. How many guys you figure get a false sense of security out of shooting a magnum? From reading your own words I bet it's a high number of magnum owners. How many guys out there say I've got a xxx magnum, I'm good to 1000yds!???
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  #166  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:32 PM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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I would say quite a few. Again do you really want the same guys running around with 223’s? If there not using a magnum “properly” do you honestly think they’d respect the limits of the 223?

For the record if used properly I have no doubt the 223 would kill a deer. Unfortunately like I said earlier common sense seems to get harder and harder to find.
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  #167  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:36 PM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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Maybe we should lower the archery poundage requirements down to 25lbs so my 11yrd old niece can hunt too. After all with today’s arrows and broad heads it could effectively kill a deer at 20yrds...
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  #168  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:45 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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So what does the good old 243 offer to shooters that are keen on recoil. What about the wound channel, and how does it perform at long range shooting on paper targets.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...inchester.html

Same idea but let's look at the 233 to kind of find out how it stacks up.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...Remington.html

As posted above, innovative & informative decisions helps folks get up to speed.

And yes, there are many after market peaces that "could" be used to lesson recoil of many firearms that are out there. Including the 243's to big magnums.

At a persons choosing that is.
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  #169  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
So a 12 year old kid shooting a deer has now become a sheep hunter hanging off a cliff with one arm shooting in the wind. Nice.

Don’t like magnums? Small caliber guys?


!
Dandy deer Chuck. Remember the pic well, always do when it comes to a good deer. Not sure the point of the pic though. If I was ambitious I would dig up a pic of the skull from the largest grizz ever killed in Alberta showing the neat little .22 caliber hole in it....but it makes no point.
Now why on earth would a sheep hunter hang from a cliff with one arm while shooting in a mountain type wind? Are you saying that the perfect shot doesn't always present itself? Heart isn't broke with the first shot every time?

It would seem there are some who lead us to believe each and every shot they have ever taken has been right on point. A mistake never made. Having anything more than a single shot is a waste of weight.
To me these are the guys that are lacking in experience if this has never occurred in their hunting career......or their righteous attitude omits those times from memory or comments on threads.

Yeah, a .22 rimfire can kill a grizzly bear. I have no doubt a .223 will knock down deer size game quite handily.
But IN MY OPINION, if and when and once again, I make a less than perfect shot on an animal I would choose a .300 wby over a .223 any day. But that's just me.
And if you can't shoot enough rounds out of a larger caliber to be accurate with it, then by all means choose something smaller. A .243 is a fine choice for starting out. Actually shot my first deer with a .243. Was a few moons ago.
ps, I have never bought a rifle based on what shells cost. Load em up and shoot. One of my .300 wbys, bought it new probably 25 years ago...surprised it even has any rifling left with the amount its been shot. That gun has shot more gophers than many rimfires. Never had one get away, and not every shot was in the boiler room haha. Good times....
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  #170  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:04 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
I would say quite a few. Again do you really want the same guys running around with 223’s? If there not using a magnum “properly” do you honestly think they’d respect the limits of the 223?

For the record if used properly I have no doubt the 223 would kill a deer. Unfortunately like I said earlier common sense seems to get harder and harder to find.
I think I would prefer the guys who don't know what they're doing use 223's, better chance of the animal surviving a bad shot rather die a slow death.

The point is, a lot of people believe big guns make up for bad shots, like lots. Another thing is a lot of people under estimate just how lethal firearms are, like lots.

As I said earlier in this thread, a 223 wouldn't be my choice in a big game rifle however I know they are quite capable of killing big game animals.

Your analogy of lowering the bow poundage first to 30 and now to 25 is absurd and doesn't help your argument. Save that one for archery discussion.
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  #171  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:23 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
“All the 6mm are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place for a light big game rifle,”

Ether I misinterpreted this or....

And for the record I never once brought long range shooting into the conversation but since you did, do you honestly think people wouldn’t try it? Look at the other thread about using the 6.5grendel at 900+ yards. SD this BC that, little bit of math and the internet says it’s good to go. Now a days key board time seems to mean more then trigger time and everyone’s an expert.
You must have been skimming. One guy killed an antelope at 752 yards with a grendel, the extreme limits of the cartridge, leave it to some guy to do it but reality is it's stomping deer/hogs and more at 350-450 yards like it's no big thing and has been doing so for 14 years now.

On the multi-year thread linked from the 6.5 Grendel forum (called the grendel knock down survey), there were two at least 6' foot 400+ lb plus black bears, 4 caribou, 2 cow elk, about 4 red stags, some big fallow bucks (over 200 lbs), and even an oryx bull...in addition to countless deer and hogs of every size/weight imaginable.

The synopsis that was interesting was the sheer number of either drt's or sub 30 yrd recoveries. The Grendel is the real deal and it supports the math. It's that math i'm trying to show to people so they can compare new cartridges to known. They really do just reduce down to numbers that matter for hunting, you just have to choose the right numbers to compare. S.d./impact velocity/bullet construction...in that order, not headstamps, ft/lbs, caliber.

The 6.5 Grendel is an equal to the .243...straight across. It is more efficient because of it's higher b.c. and s.d. So it may start out slower than the .243 but the .243 slows down so much faster that the Grendel catches it and equals it to the end of their useful impact velocities. AND...the Grendel will out penetrate at distance due to higher s.d.'s...it will also let you practice much further due to those higher b.c.'s, and or, deal with hung up coyotes at distances well past big game distances etc. far better than a .243 will. The .243 is a one trick pony and does it's job very well, i will never slam this cartridge as i do believe it's fantastic, i just see it for what it is. And i also see The 6.5 Grendel for what it is, it matches it and does more....and does it with 20 grains less powder, it is a multi-trick pony, a modern day pony. There's just more you can do with the Grendel, including banging steel reliably to 800. Whatever distance you want to kill anything with a .243, the Grendel will do it to that distance too and then do even better past that distance as the .243 really falls on it's face.

c'mon, be happery john, not angery

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  #172  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:27 PM
Suzukisam Suzukisam is offline
 
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I’m sorry. But this is completely ridiculous.
Yup that’s right. Now go ask your dad or grandpa if he ever incision moose to be a draw with wait time of 3 to 6 years. Look to the future and not the past times are changing and hunters are the minority. Bet you never thought they would try bring back registration again.
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  #173  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:32 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Dandy deer Chuck. Remember the pic well, always do when it comes to a good deer. Not sure the point of the pic though. If I was ambitious I would dig up a pic of the skull from the largest grizz ever killed in Alberta showing the neat little .22 caliber hole in it....but it makes no point.
Now why on earth would a sheep hunter hang from a cliff with one arm while shooting in a mountain type wind? Are you saying that the perfect shot doesn't always present itself? Heart isn't broke with the first shot every time?

It would seem there are some who lead us to believe each and every shot they have ever taken has been right on point. A mistake never made. Having anything more than a single shot is a waste of weight.
To me these are the guys that are lacking in experience if this has never occurred in their hunting career......or their righteous attitude omits those times from memory or comments on threads.

Yeah, a .22 rimfire can kill a grizzly bear. I have no doubt a .223 will knock down deer size game quite handily.
But IN MY OPINION, if and when and once again, I make a less than perfect shot on an animal I would choose a .300 wby over a .223 any day. But that's just me.
And if you can't shoot enough rounds out of a larger caliber to be accurate with it, then by all means choose something smaller. A .243 is a fine choice for starting out. Actually shot my first deer with a .243. Was a few moons ago.
ps, I have never bought a rifle based on what shells cost. Load em up and shoot. One of my .300 wbys, bought it new probably 25 years ago...surprised it even has any rifling left with the amount its been shot. That gun has shot more gophers than many rimfires. Never had one get away, and not every shot was in the boiler room haha. Good times....
The context of this thread is young children. If you hunt with kids, you know the toughest part is getting them in position when the deer is. It’s hard. The biggest part of that trouble is the rifle they are packing. It’s heavy and unwieldy. If they could point their finger at the deer and kill it with a “pew pew” much of the logistics would solve themselves. All I’m saying, is a light handy rifle with mild recoil would go a long ways to solving some of it.

I shoot with my kids enough to know that a 260/7-08/243 isn’t fun for long, but a 223 they can’t shoot enough. And they get darn good with it. They can hit what they are aiming at. A light recoiling rifle in a handy package would, in my opinion, make better shooters and hunters out of 12 year olds and that in turn makes better 30 year old hunters and shooters. Who may well be packing a magnum.

I was illustrating in the picture that I have nothing against magnums. I have used them quite affectively. Have I had to shoot stuff more than once? Absolutely. Have I seen a correlation regarding case volume. Not a meaningful one. And, I’ve said many times. The more game I shoot, the less I know. But I sure like learning from what I experience and see.
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  #174  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:38 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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In the end, i will make the assumption that Chuck wanted to draw some attention to our current laws by starting this thread, in slim hopes of someday seeing a change? And if that were the goal i'd have to say achieved, i'm in support man. Word.
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  #175  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:02 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
You must have been skimming. One guy killed an antelope at 752 yards with a grendel, the extreme limits of the cartridge, leave it to some guy to do it but reality is it's stomping deer/hogs and more at 350-450 yards like it's no big thing and has been doing so for 14 years now.

On the multi-year thread linked from the 6.5 Grendel forum (called the grendel knock down survey), there were two at least 6' foot 400+ lb plus black bears, 4 caribou, 2 cow elk, about 4 red stags, some big fallow bucks (over 200 lbs), and even an oryx bull...in addition to countless deer and hogs of every size/weight imaginable.

The synopsis that was interesting was the sheer number of either drt's or sub 30 yrd recoveries. The Grendel is the real deal and it supports the math. It's that math i'm trying to show to people so they can compare new cartridges to known. They really do just reduce down to numbers that matter for hunting, you just have to choose the right numbers to compare. S.d./impact velocity/bullet construction...in that order, not headstamps, ft/lbs, caliber.

The 6.5 Grendel is an equal to the .243...straight across. It is more efficient because of it's higher b.c. and s.d. So it may start out slower than the .243 but the .243 slows down so much faster that the Grendel catches it and equals it to the end of their useful impact velocities. AND...the Grendel will out penetrate at distance due to higher s.d.'s...it will also let you practice much further due to those higher b.c.'s, and or, deal with hung up coyotes at distances well past big game distances etc. far better than a .243 will. The .243 is a one trick pony and does it's job very well, i will never slam this cartridge as i do believe it's fantastic, i just see it for what it is. And i also see The 6.5 Grendel for what it is, it matches it and does more....and does it with 20 grains less powder, it is a multi-trick pony, a modern day pony. There's just more you can do with the Grendel, including banging steel reliably to 800. Whatever distance you want to kill anything with a .243, the Grendel will do it to that distance too and then do even better past that distance as the .243 really falls on it's face.

c'mon, be happery john, not angery
All would be happy if you quit pushing that Grendel S--- every day.
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  #176  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:03 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Wow, that I did not know. Laughing

You actually believe everything you type?
Not only the best hunter with 20 years guiding experience he should probably add clairvoyant to his resume. What a joke.
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  #177  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:31 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Not only the best hunter with 20 years guiding experience he should probably add clairvoyant to his resume. What a joke.
Speaking of a joke, don't get mad at me just because you can't shoot anything unless it's out the window of your pickup. You'll have to get out of your truck to learn how to hunt but at this point in your life it's probably best you rely on a magnum rifle and mobile ground blind.
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  #178  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:36 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Speaking of a joke, don't get mad at me just because you can't shoot anything unless it's out the window of your pickup. You'll have to get out of your truck to learn how to hunt but at this point in your life it's probably best you rely on a magnum rifle and mobile ground blind.
Like i said clairvoyant. Curious what else your crystal ball shows.
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  #179  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:39 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Like i said clairvoyant. Curious what else your crystal ball shows.
It's not clairvoyance, it's foresight, but you have to have common sense to realize it so I'll let it slide this time.

Stick to your magnums, you need em'
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  #180  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:54 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Not only the best hunter with 20 years guiding experience he should probably add clairvoyant to his resume. What a joke.

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It's not clairvoyance, it's foresight, but you have to have common sense to realize it so I'll let it slide this time.

Stick to your magnums, you need em'

A psychologist would think he had a self esteem issue. That would make two of us with the same thought
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