Alberta as 51st US State

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by zabbo

We all have big investments here Ken. Anything from family, real estate, personal possessions and even sentimental feelings. I would never be in favor of any kind of deal that would mean relinquishing everything or anything I now have. As mentioned, the state of Alberta would have far more resources and freedom to support a medical system that works for all. Further, we would have a much bigger say in the legal system. Anything from longer prison sentences to capital punishment. Might actually be able to put a serious dent in the overall crime rate.

I have never met you, but you seem like a can do kind of guy. To simply state," We can't leave confederation", doesn't seem like a can do sort of comment. Would there be issues and problems? Damn right! Could they be overcome? We'll never know if we don't at least take a look. I have to wonder what would have happened if parizeau had garnered a 52% or maybe 55% yes vote in the qeeeeebeec referendum? I'm thinking he would have left confederation. No doubt he would have demanded the use of Canadian currency and passports, as well as retention of members of parliament in Ottawa and oh, by the way don't forget the equalization cheque! What is stopping Alberta from doing the same thing or some variation of it?

A huge dent in the crime rate, how wonderful would that be?

I do as much as I am able, I do try to be a Can-do guy, thank you for that.

But, above and beyond that, I am a realist. I listen to people far smarter than me, then try to form my opinion based on their information and my own thoughts.

I think Huntnstuff nailed it, in short 'how much are we prepared to lose'?

"Change like separation is messy. It isnt all fought with lawyers/politicians. It's actually war. Alberta leaving would probably involve this. I guess it all depends on how far citizens want to take this. What are you truly willing to do?"

I didn't answer Hal, (sorry about that my friend, just did not want to get into it again) and was fed a **** sandwich, so I will type it again.

Military is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
RCMP is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
Yes there are EPS and CPS, are they willing to take up arms against RCMP and the Military? Their own fellow Albertan's?

What about the FN? Do you think they will stand by when there is no more reservation, no more free anything, and they have to pay taxes starting day 1? Will they leave to BC and Saskatchewan, Manitoba maybe? Will they accept the new refugees without treaties or a Country?

The Railway is owned by the US.

I would bet Doctors and Professionals would leave the newly broke starting at zero country to continue their careers in Canada elsewhere or leave to go South, where they would not have to do free-work until everything is set up. How long would that take? A year, 5, a decade?

We would have no passports, no real infrastructure, we would be landlocked in the worst way, no water and hostile forces on 3 side thinking we betrayed them, left them to the Wolves while the giant Wolf South of us is licking their chops anxious to rape the land, leave us less than nothing.

We would have no currency.

We would have no import export trade agreements.

What about power, fire up the generators? Cut the lines from down South?

What about Alberta's share of the debt? Think Canada will let us walk from that?

Who is going to write the cheque, and from what account?

How do we stop the equalization cheque? I am all for that but what and who can do it?

Add on top of these half dozen nearly insurmountable obstacles another thousand, but you know what I am getting at. We have done this before.

Now this part is a stretch, take it with a grain of salt, but it is something that has to be thought of.

We have one dictator in the big chair, how do we know the next one is not going to be owned another huge company or country that will kill us all and take every resource to 4 miles deep?

Funny how I have never once seen mention of that at all, everyone thinks that the Grand Ruler of the Country of Alberta will be here solely and completely for the well being of the people?

The guy in the new chair might turn trillionaire overnight as he imposes martial law and enslaves us all, now with no Military or Police Force to speak of to protect us. When all the farms become State owned because they say so, do the farmers walk away from their lifetime of investing many millions of dollars into land and equipment? I can list 3 farms very near to me that have over 30 sections of land they farm, that land has recently been selling for half a million a quarter. Run the numbers, think they will quietly leave?

The utopia we all want is a wet dream. I have said that before, you can quote me.

I do not have the answer. I voted so my elected representative could speak for me against the Liberals. It didn't help.

Also, actually there are more here than you might think, that have nothing invested and are carrying huge debt, or live in a 1/1 rental and could care less.

I mentioned the clueless- I was speaking about the people that just jump at every opportunity to protest, to yell and shout then ask 'why are we here again'? The truly clueless, we see them on live media daily.

Last- people will glaze over this, pick out the parts that annoy them just to bitch at me, or will poopoo the entire thing. That's the biggest reason I didn't answer Hal, the truth is everyone wants change, will smash keys and yell on the phones, may even drive a semi to a protest or put on a yellow vest, and have not a goddamn clue of how to do anything, but if we separate,

"it will work itself out" or "it will balance itself".

and of course the author of that quote,

the latest bastard in the most powerful chair in Canada. (I just can't glorify him with a picture)

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

The guy in the new chair might turn trillionaire overnight as he imposes martial law and enslaves us all, now with no Military or Police Force to speak of to protect us.

Shhhh, Ken! When I told you of my plans, it was supposed to be held in confidence!

Seriously, though, that was well-written and definitely appreciate how you laid that out.

I’m Glad to see the conversations on this thread; it’s good to see people thinking about what’s going on in this country, and reviewing potential solutions.

And I will volunteer for the Benevolent Dictator position, if Ken or Huntinstuff don’t take it.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

A huge dent in the crime rate, how wonderful would that be?

I do as much as I am able, I do try to be a Can-do guy, thank you for that.

But, above and beyond that, I am a realist. I listen to people far smarter than me, then try to form my opinion based on their information and my own thoughts.

I think Huntnstuff nailed it, in short 'how much are we prepared to lose'?

"Change like separation is messy. It isnt all fought with lawyers/politicians. It's actually war. Alberta leaving would probably involve this. I guess it all depends on how far citizens want to take this. What are you truly willing to do?"

I didn't answer Hal, (sorry about that my friend, just did not want to get into it again) and was fed a **** sandwich, so I will type it again.

Military is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
RCMP is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
Yes there are EPS and CPS, are they willing to take up arms against RCMP and the Military? Their own fellow Albertan's?

What about the FN? Do you think they will stand by when there is no more reservation, no more free anything, and they have to pay taxes starting day 1? Will they leave to BC and Saskatchewan, Manitoba maybe? Will they accept the new refugees without treaties or a Country?

The Railway is owned by the US.

I would bet Doctors and Professionals would leave the newly broke starting at zero country to continue their careers in Canada elsewhere or leave to go South, where they would not have to do free-work until everything is set up. How long would that take? A year, 5, a decade?

We would have no passports, no real infrastructure, we would be landlocked in the worst way, no water and hostile forces on 3 side thinking we betrayed them, left them to the Wolves while the giant Wolf South of us is licking their chops anxious to rape the land, leave us less than nothing.

We would have no currency.

We would have no import export trade agreements.

What about power, fire up the generators? Cut the lines from down South?

What about Alberta's share of the debt? Think Canada will let us walk from that?

Who is going to write the cheque, and from what account?

How do we stop the equalization cheque? I am all for that but what and who can do it?

Add on top of these half dozen nearly insurmountable obstacles another thousand, but you know what I am getting at. We have done this before.

Now this part is a stretch, take it with a grain of salt, but it is something that has to be thought of.

We have one dictator in the big chair, how do we know the next one is not going to be owned another huge company or country that will kill us all and take every resource to 4 miles deep?

Funny how I have never once seen mention of that at all, everyone thinks that the Grand Ruler of the Country of Alberta will be here solely and completely for the well being of the people?

The guy in the new chair might turn trillionaire overnight as he imposes martial law and enslaves us all, now with no Military or Police Force to speak of to protect us. When all the farms become State owned because they say so, do the farmers walk away from their lifetime of investing many millions of dollars into land and equipment? I can list 3 farms very near to me that have over 30 sections of land they farm, that land has recently been selling for half a million a quarter. Run the numbers, think they will quietly leave?

The utopia we all want is a wet dream. I have said that before, you can quote me.

I do not have the answer. I voted so my elected representative could speak for me against the Liberals. It didn't help.

Also, actually there are more here than you might think, that have nothing invested and are carrying huge debt, or live in a 1/1 rental and could care less.

I mentioned the clueless- I was speaking about the people that just jump at every opportunity to protest, to yell and shout then ask 'why are we here again'? The truly clueless, we see them on live media daily.

Last- people will glaze over this, pick out the parts that annoy them just to bitch at me, or will poopoo the entire thing. That's the biggest reason I didn't answer Hal, the truth is everyone wants change, will smash keys and yell on the phones, may even drive a semi to a protest or put on a yellow vest, and have not a goddamn clue of how to do anything, but if we separate,

"it will work itself out" or "it will balance itself".

and of course the author of that quote,

the latest bastard in the most powerful chair in Canada. (I just can't glorify him with a picture)

Wow. Not quite what I expected.

Guess that's all there is to be said then.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Wow. Guess that's all there is t be said then.

Agree, disagree, thoughts?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

A huge dent in the crime rate, how wonderful would that be?

I do as much as I am able, I do try to be a Can-do guy, thank you for that.

But, above and beyond that, I am a realist. I listen to people far smarter than me, then try to form my opinion based on their information and my own thoughts.

I think Huntnstuff nailed it, in short 'how much are we prepared to lose'?

"Change like separation is messy. It isnt all fought with lawyers/politicians. It's actually war. Alberta leaving would probably involve this. I guess it all depends on how far citizens want to take this. What are you truly willing to do?"

I didn't answer Hal, (sorry about that my friend, just did not want to get into it again) and was fed a **** sandwich, so I will type it again.

Military is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
RCMP is Canada's. Not Alberta's.
Yes there are EPS and CPS, are they willing to take up arms against RCMP and the Military? Their own fellow Albertan's?

What about the FN? Do you think they will stand by when there is no more reservation, no more free anything, and they have to pay taxes starting day 1? Will they leave to BC and Saskatchewan, Manitoba maybe? Will they accept the new refugees without treaties or a Country?

The Railway is owned by the US.

I would bet Doctors and Professionals would leave the newly broke starting at zero country to continue their careers in Canada elsewhere or leave to go South, where they would not have to do free-work until everything is set up. How long would that take? A year, 5, a decade?

We would have no passports, no real infrastructure, we would be landlocked in the worst way, no water and hostile forces on 3 side thinking we betrayed them, left them to the Wolves while the giant Wolf South of us is licking their chops anxious to rape the land, leave us less than nothing.

We would have no currency.

We would have no import export trade agreements.

What about power, fire up the generators? Cut the lines from down South?

What about Alberta's share of the debt? Think Canada will let us walk from that?

Who is going to write the cheque, and from what account?

How do we stop the equalization cheque? I am all for that but what and who can do it?

Add on top of these half dozen nearly insurmountable obstacles another thousand, but you know what I am getting at. We have done this before.

Now this part is a stretch, take it with a grain of salt, but it is something that has to be thought of.

We have one dictator in the big chair, how do we know the next one is not going to be owned another huge company or country that will kill us all and take every resource to 4 miles deep?

Funny how I have never once seen mention of that at all, everyone thinks that the Grand Ruler of the Country of Alberta will be here solely and completely for the well being of the people?

The guy in the new chair might turn trillionaire overnight as he imposes martial law and enslaves us all, now with no Military or Police Force to speak of to protect us. When all the farms become State owned because they say so, do the farmers walk away from their lifetime of investing many millions of dollars into land and equipment? I can list 3 farms very near to me that have over 30 sections of land they farm, that land has recently been selling for half a million a quarter. Run the numbers, think they will quietly leave?

The utopia we all want is a wet dream. I have said that before, you can quote me.

I do not have the answer. I voted so my elected representative could speak for me against the Liberals. It didn't help.

Also, actually there are more here than you might think, that have nothing invested and are carrying huge debt, or live in a 1/1 rental and could care less.

I mentioned the clueless- I was speaking about the people that just jump at every opportunity to protest, to yell and shout then ask 'why are we here again'? The truly clueless, we see them on live media daily.

Last- people will glaze over this, pick out the parts that annoy them just to bitch at me, or will poopoo the entire thing. That's the biggest reason I didn't answer Hal, the truth is everyone wants change, will smash keys and yell on the phones, may even drive a semi to a protest or put on a yellow vest, and have not a goddamn clue of how to do anything, but if we separate,

"it will work itself out" or "it will balance itself".

and of course the author of that quote,

the latest bastard in the most powerful chair in Canada. (I just can't glorify him with a picture)

Go back and read the title of this thread, it is about Alberta becoming the 51st state. As a state, we would have a military, a currency, and passports. We would have access to the Pacific ocean through other states. As for the railways being owned by the USA, being a state, I don't see an issue As for the RCMP, we would be better off without them. As to FN, many would leave to other provinces to continue the handouts. As to the debt, take our portion by population, and after no longer paying the equalization, it would be paid off in a few years. Then again, if we took the previous years that we paid into equalization to other provinces into account , Canada would owe us. And being part of the USA, neither Trudeau or the UN would be able to bully us into paying more than our share.

[Jayhad]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

The guy in the new chair might turn trillionaire overnight as he imposes martial law and enslaves us all, now with no Military or Police Force to speak of to protect us.

Ok Ken, logically if there is no military or police force to protect us there is no forces to be the muscle of this new super tyrant you have imagined

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Agree, disagree, thoughts?

Some things I agree. Definitely lots of issues that would need to be worked out in almost any scenario. Some things you mention would involve be Alberta becoming a separate country and no doubt that would involve some very formidable challenges.

The 51 state option also presents some issues, but might also present some positive things.

I tend to be more in favor of the new deal for Alberta in Canada. Somehow I doubt that is possible, because our masters in Ottawa and qeeeebec will never relinquish any of their power.

At this point, I just know that I like many others, including yourself, have become very disillusioned with the current state of affairs in Alberta and Canada. With that in mind I'm willing to at least look at any and all options. Unfortunately, it seems there are not many.

[Trochu]

Most of your comments are the product of a wild imagination in my opinion. Just a few....

"Change like separation is messy. It isn't all fought with lawyers/politicians. It's actually war."

It takes the boy in the Big Chair two weeks to whisper under his breath that the rail blockades are illegal. You actually think he'd send in the army and start a civil war? If Quebec voted "yes" several years ago, you think there would have been a civil war to keep them?

"while the giant Wolf South of us is licking their chops anxious to rape the land, leave us less than nothing."

Um, the same thing keeping them out right now would keep them out if Alberta separated. Here's a hint, it's not Canada's intimidating armed forces.....

"We would have no currency."

You can't stretch just a little bit and consider that initially, we'd utilize the Cdn or US dollar?

"We would have no import export trade agreements."

Then get them. They said that about Brexit too.

"What about power, fire up the generators? Cut the lines from down South?"

What about it, keep it going as is.

"Who is going to write the cheque, and from what account?

How do we stop the equalization cheque? I am all for that but what and who can do it?"

You can't have both these problems simultaneously.

All these problems have been solved many, many times for thousands of years throughout history. 34x since 1990 alone actually.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Trochu

Most of your comments are the product of a wild imagination in my opinion. Just a few....
"Change like separation is messy. It isn't all fought with lawyers/politicians. It's actually war."
It takes the boy in the Big Chair two weeks to whisper under his breath that the rail blockades are illegal. You actually think he'd send in the army and start a civil war? If Quebec voted "yes" several years ago, you think there would have been a civil war to keep them?
"while the giant Wolf South of us is licking their chops anxious to rape the land, leave us less than nothing."
Um, the same thing keeping them out right now would keep them out if Alberta separated. Here's a hint, it's not Canada's intimidating armed forces.....
"We would have no currency."You can't stretch just a little bit and consider that initially, we'd utilize the Cdn or US dollar?"We would have no import export trade agreements."Then get them. They said that about Brexit too.
"What about power, fire up the generators? Cut the lines from down South?"
What about it, keep it going as is. "Who is going to write the cheque, and from what account?How do we stop the equalization cheque? I am all for that but what and who can do it?"You can't have both these problems simultaneously. All these problems have been solved many, many times for thousands of years throughout history. 34x since 1990 alone actually.

Well there you go, you have all the answers. Thanks for enlightening me. I did not know that everything I said was wrong, now I do.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Go back and read the title of this thread, it is about Alberta becoming the 51st state. As a state, we would have a military, a currency, and passports. We would have access to the Pacific ocean through other states. As for the railways being owned by the USA, being a state, I don't see an issue As for the RCMP, we would be better off without them. As to FN, many would leave to other provinces to continue the handouts. As to the debt, take our portion by population, and after no longer paying the equalization, it would be paid off in a few years. Then again, if we took the previous years that we paid into equalization to other provinces into account , Canada would owe us. And being part of the USA, neither Trudeau or the UN would be able to bully us into paying more than our share.

I think more here believe we are better off, safer as a new separate entity. That was the basis of my answer. More towards Alberta leaving Canada alone.
As with every thread the last reply is not necessarily aligned with the first.

[Dewey Cox]

I think the best thing we could do right now is make inquiries with the USA about joining.
The worst outcome of this is that we find out it's not for us, and everything stays exactly the same as it is now.

I'm going to write a letter to the premier this evening, and I would encourage everyone to do the same.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Well there you go, you have all the answers. Thanks for enlightening me. I did not know that everything I said was wrong, now I do.

For a thread on becoming our own independent country, a few of your points are valid , for a thread about becoming the 51st state, pretty much everything that you posted was wrong.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For a thread on becoming our own independent country, a few of your points are valid , for a thread about becoming the 51st state, pretty much everything that you posted was wrong.

The reply was 100% toward independant.

I fully admit I was not answering the title of the discussion.

[gunluvr]

So we've read the cons.How about the pros? I don't have time right now, I'm at work. Lunchbreak.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

So we've read the cons.How about the pros? I don't have time right now, I'm at work. Lunchbreak.

We would be allowed to develop projects and provide employment for our residents. We would not be paying huge amounts to subsidize other provinces/states. We wouldn't be second class citizens9n our own country.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

I think the best thing we could do right now is make inquiries with the USA about joining.
The worst outcome of this is that we find out it's not for us, and everything stays exactly the same as it is now.

I'm going to write a letter to the premier this evening, and I would encourage everyone to do the same.

post your copy so we can cut and paste.....don't want to sound like a blundering idiot and if we are then we are all into that category together.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

So we've read the cons.How about the pros? I don't have time right now, I'm at work. Lunchbreak.

that will change once we become a nation or the 51st state as we will all have magical unicorns to ride that poop out gold coins.....honest....trump said.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

that will change once we become a nation or the 51st state as we will all have magical unicorns to ride that poop out gold coins.....honest....trump said.

WOW!!!.....

[Dewey Cox]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

post your copy so we can cut and paste.....don't want to sound like a blundering idiot and if we are then we are all into that category together.

I knew you'd come around, and give up on canada.

Personally, I think it's more important that they get unique letters than it is that they all sound "proper".
I often wonder if politicians put as much weight in a form letter that they receive in quantity.

Keep it short and sweet. Just say that you like for the provincial gov. to look into joining the usa, just so we'd know if it was even an option.

[traderal]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

I think the best thing we could do right now is make inquiries with the USA about joining.
The worst outcome of this is that we find out it's not for us, and everything stays exactly the same as it is now.

I'm going to write a letter to the premier this evening, and I would encourage everyone to do the same.

I press the like button on this.
If Kenneychuk announced he was even thinking about this, some heads would turn to mush in ottawa, and sparkle socks would not be able to go on holidays for months.
I wouldn't be surprised if Trump wouldn't give us at par for our dollar if we were to join plus constitutionally fast track help all the way. What could be better for the US than to have an easy route to Alaska. As far as resources well they have ours already.

[stuckincity]

I've been following this thread, and there's some real good ideas.

Laugh at me if you will, but I still think one Great Idea is the best:

A FIREWALL, which the Americans call "Nullification Laws".

That means any federal legislation is "nullified" or "invalid" within the borders of any state where the people disagree with it. In our case, within the borders of a Province.

We'll still be part of Canada, but not have to respect or enforce the decisions of the entitled, inherited wealth, out-of-touch chattering classes in Ottawa.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

I knew you'd come around, and give up on canada.

Personally, I think it's more important that they get unique letters than it is that they all sound "proper".
I often wonder if politicians put as much weight in a form letter that they receive in quantity.

Keep it short and sweet. Just say that you like for the provincial gov. to look into joining the usa, just so we'd know if it was even an option.

crap I thought we were joining the USSR...now I got to really think about this one....I do like short and sweet even if they speak another language.

[Smoky buck]

There is definitely some crazy theories from both pro separation and against. The reality is there is no terms for separation or joining the US so no one has a clue on what this would consists of. The fear mongering about invasion from other countries or exploited are nothing but paranoia.

With the complete lack of any form of negotiations or plan no one has a clue how these situation could pan out.

I can completely respect an opinion where someone views staying part of Canada because they feel the way things are is ok or something that can be worked through. Just as I can respect that people view putting effort into negotiations with the US or negotiations on terms of separation is worth while

But from reading these threads I sure hope if a vote does happen people base it on terms of separation/plan vs personal dreams or fear

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by stuckincity

I've been following this thread, and there's some real good ideas.



Laugh at me if you will, but I still think one Great Idea is the best:



A FIREWALL, which the Americans call "Nullification Laws".



That means any federal legislation is "nullified" or "invalid" within the borders of any state where the people disagree with it. In our case, within the borders of a Province.



We'll still be part of Canada, but not have to respect or enforce the decisions of the entitled, inherited wealth, out-of-touch chattering classes in Ottawa.

God thinking! I like that idea.

[Mr Flyguy]

Originally Posted by LKP.80cal

Join the USA as a territory of the USA but retain independence and dual citizenship.

Yeah, like Puerto Rico?

[Osky]

Nullification is not a law in America. It is a theory that has never officially been applied and vetted for solvency.

Osky

[KinAlberta]

In the past, I’ve suggested to pro-separatists that maybe just Ft McMurray and the oil sands territory should separate from both Canada and the rest of Alberta.

The rest of Alberta is pretty much a leach on the wealth they create. They make it and the rest of Alberta and Canada spends it. They are liquidating their local assets but the revenues are being shared with everyone.

Think of all the head offices currently in Edmonton and Calgary that would immediately move to Ft McMurray. Think of how much smaller and more effective their national government would be to serve their much smaller population! :-)

In terms of the theme of this thread, if they joined the US they could leave all us millions of leaches out of the deal. Texas and Alaska could provide any expertise they’d need as they’d need it. Maybe they could keep most of the wealth as long as they banked it in New York...

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Mr Flyguy

Yeah, like Puerto Rico?

Alaska, Hawaii....

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Alaska, Hawaii....

No, those are states. Protectorate is different. Puerto Rico and Guam, some of the Marianas, Virgin Islands, American Samoas. A different type of relationship, worth looking at. Possibly preferable to being a state, initially, while applying for statehood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by KinAlberta

In the past, I’ve suggested to pro-separatists that maybe just Ft McMurray and the oil sands territory should separate from both Canada and the rest of Alberta.

I think I get where your going with that analogy, but Fort McMurray does not have the FM Teachers Associate, Fort McMurray Health, Fort McMurray Transportation, FM Energy Regulator, FM Law, FM Utilities Commission, any universities, etc. Much easier for Alberta to split, with many of these institutions already in place, than an area that does not.