Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:35 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,443
Default Cost for Fire Dep't False Alarm?

Was out shoveling and two firetrucks came blazing up the street and stopped in front of the neighbor's place. No smoke coming out. No sick people either - the owner is a doctor anyhow - just smiling firemen. I asked them what was up and they said that they were cooking and smoke set off alarms. My question is how big is the bill going to be for two big firetrucks responding to this?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:36 PM
Ken3134 Ken3134 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 279
Default

Probably a warning unless it's already happened once before.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:39 PM
huntinstuff's Avatar
huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 9,586
Default

I believe I paid like $550 in Edmonton

Last edited by huntinstuff; 11-18-2018 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:41 PM
EZM's Avatar
EZM EZM is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,851
Default

Not sure if it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction or commercial versus residential but at work our first false alarm was free, then the second was $500, then was told our third would be $1500 if it happened again ...... luckily we got the alarm issue fixed before finding out what happens if this keeps happening.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:45 PM
huntinstuff's Avatar
huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 9,586
Default

I know i got a $1500 bill from county of Falher for a “wild land fire” that some a-hole bee keeper started on my land without permission
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:46 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Millet
Posts: 854
Default

It varies community to to community. We had 1 free call in the last small town we lived in. Next one cost us a certain amount per firefighter that came. Changed the location of the sensor after that.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:55 PM
Weedy1 Weedy1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,485
Default

From: https://www.edmonton.ca/programs_ser...d-permits.aspx

False Alarm: Response related to malfunctioning Fire Safety Installations or other safety monitoring devices, at the same premises responded to during a calendar year.

False Alarms
First response to False Alarm No Charge
Second response to False Alarm $85
Third response to False Alarm $416
Fourth response to False Alarm $829

Commercial False Alarms
First response to False Alarm No Charge
Second response to False Alarm $326
Third response to False Alarm $649
Fourth response to False Alarm $1295

Security Alarms
Residential $829
Commercial $1295
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-18-2018, 03:14 PM
artie artie is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,936
Default

I was cutting drywall with one of those electric rotary drywall cutters. The alarm went off so I just shut it off and went back to cutting. Next thing a fire truck showed up and wanted to know where the fire was. I told them I had shut the alarm off but they said the alarm company called it in. The first time was free the next $250 then $500 up to $1000. Now when ever I am doing work in the house I phone the alarm company and tell them to turn it off for the day.

I also never knew that drywall dust would set it off.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-18-2018, 03:24 PM
antmai antmai is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Here, not there
Posts: 589
Default false alarm

Never heard of a charge for a residential false alarm, at least in Edmonton. Warnings are definitely issued to 'repeat' issues with commercial/industrial. A shut-off notice also gets issued, meaning that 'specific' alarm will be the property manager's responsibility to be verified.

Yes, steam and dust set off detectors with relative ease. Don't forget, smoke is just like dust-airborne particulate.
__________________
The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:47 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Huge problem for all departments.
Alarm services are not very good at educating their customers on the installed systems.
I'm sure other departments have the same experiences we have where every single alarm call that we have received from an alarm service has been false.
Unfortunately hitting the home owner with a bill has been the most effective method of preventing repeat alarms.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-19-2018, 08:12 AM
Bassett's Avatar
Bassett Bassett is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
I believe I paid like $550 in Edmonton


When the hooligans in highschook pulled the alarm I remember it being 500$ for every truck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:49 AM
ghostguy6's Avatar
ghostguy6 ghostguy6 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: edmonton
Posts: 3,116
Default

I seem to remember $1000 per hour per truck at an old job. Of course the building I worked at dealt with very hazardous materials so it demanded a multi truck response, including a hazmat truck. The new "state of the art alarm system" would trip constantly but no indication at the building site. It was not uncommon for the fire department to show up responding to a building alarm and no one working there knew the alarm had tripped. The only indication was a blinking light on the control panel, no sirens or strobe lights going off. Even when you viewed the security system online it would show nothing.
__________________
" Everything in life that I enjoy is either illegal, immoral, fattening or causes cancer!"

"The problem was this little thing called the government and laws."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:01 PM
huntsolo1 huntsolo1 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
Default Not a “false” alarm...

Generally speaking if it goes off due to cooking or something like that it’s not a billable false alarm. The detector was doing what it was designed to do, there was smoke and it activated. Mistakes happen, that’s why you pay taxes...it’s like an insurance policy. If the alarm is going off due to a malfunction etc., then it’s potentially billable.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:13 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,313
Default

I know of quite a few people that have disabled the feature on their alarm system to automatically call the fire department when the alarm goes off. It's a terrible start to the day when you burn a piece of toast loose 2 hours of work, and have to pay a fine for it.

I once set off my fire alarm blowing out candels on a birthday cake (and I'm not that old yet...).
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:32 PM
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
I know i got a $1500 bill from county of Falher for a “wild land fire” that some a-hole bee keeper started on my land without permission

A lot of times they are willing to waive the charge if there's a good reason.

Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:39 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntsolo1 View Post
Generally speaking if it goes off due to cooking or something like that it’s not a billable false alarm. The detector was doing what it was designed to do, there was smoke and it activated. Mistakes happen, that’s why you pay taxes...it’s like an insurance policy. If the alarm is going off due to a malfunction etc., then it’s potentially billable.
My department, and every other one in my the county, bills for that type of call.
The home owner that caused the call should pay.
The other taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for a someone else's negligence.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:32 PM
Sooner Sooner is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 9,647
Default

Many moons ago I would store my two Yammy 340's in my inlaws garage. One late fall day it was time to bring them home for the upcoming season. I guess 2 sleds warming up inside the garage can put out a lot of smoke. Someone called the fire dept thinking the garage was on fire. A big surprise for sure when they rolled up and were there because of me. We had a good laugh, no foul no harm they said and off they went.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:55 PM
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat View Post
My department, and every other one in my the county, bills for that type of call.
The home owner that caused the call should pay.
The other taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for a someone else's negligence.
Sounds good if you say it real quick, but you don't want to discourage home owners from calling in an emergency either, because they're afraid of a huge bill. These things can get out of hand and do untold damage before long. Penny wise, dollar dumb. There's a reason we pay taxes and emergency services are part of that.

Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-19-2018, 06:47 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Sounds good if you say it real quick, but you don't want to discourage home owners from calling in an emergency either, because they're afraid of a huge bill. These things can get out of hand and do untold damage before long. Penny wise, dollar dumb. There's a reason we pay taxes and emergency services are part of that.

Grizz
No one said anything about home owners calling in false alarms.
We are talking about the problems with alarm systems waking up volunteers in the middle of the night when they have jobs to go to in the morning.
We are talking about trying up first responders so they are not available to respond to real emergencies.
If the alarm system is set up correctly the first call is to the home owner.
If needs to be set up so that the contact is not the land line if the system has it tied up with the alarm signal.
The customer needs to know how to silence the alarm and that they need to contact the system provider when they generate an alarm.
Are you willing to pay more tax to that there is enough first response available to handle real and false alarms?
The RCMP are also getting far to many false intrusions alarms and have contacted to county to create a by law so that the the home owner can be held accountable for those.
How much of tax increase are you willing to pay to fix the problem?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-19-2018, 06:57 PM
huntsolo1 huntsolo1 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
Default not here

"My department, and every other one in my the county, bills for that type of call.
The home owner that caused the call should pay.
The other taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for a someone else's negligence."

Copied from above...

Well, maybe they do in your county, in Calgary, they don't. It is a slippery slope as someone else stated, you don't want people not calling...If you get in a car accident should you pay for the fire response? I'm thinking not...just my opinion...the daily portion of your taxes that actually go towards fire response is pennies...I'll gladly pay it if it means my loved ones and family are taken care of.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:05 PM
^v^Tinda wolf^v^ ^v^Tinda wolf^v^ is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,134
Default

Funny this topic comes up I was at a private function a couple weeks ago and a big bag of pot accidentally fell on the stove and filled the entire house full of smoke. The smoke detector went of and the phone rang, who ever was on the other end said it was $500 next time it goes off. We laughed, that’s all I recall
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:05 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntsolo1 View Post
"My department, and every other one in my the county, bills for that type of call.
The home owner that caused the call should pay.
The other taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for a someone else's negligence."

Copied from above...

Well, maybe they do in your county, in Calgary, they don't. It is a slippery slope as someone else stated, you don't want people not calling...If you get in a car accident should you pay for the fire response? I'm thinking not...just my opinion...the daily portion of your taxes that actually go towards fire response is pennies...I'll gladly pay it if it means my loved ones and family are taken care of.
Again, it's not about not calling in an actual emergency, it's about a system calling automatically on false alarms.
If you are in a car accident, your insurance covers it.
If you have a house fire, your insurance covers it.
If you are caught activating a pull station when there is no fire you could and should face charges.
It's should be no different if you have implemented a system that dispatches fire automatically on false alarms.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:15 PM
huntsolo1 huntsolo1 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
Default yes, agree, but...

Yes, actual false alarms should, and do, get billed...what I am saying is that if there is smoke, and that is the reason the detector went off (not due to a malfunction etc.) then it is not technically a false alarm, the detector did what it is designed to do. Whether it is smoke from burning your turkey or smoke from a fire...the detector knows no difference. House fires double in size every minute with todays building materials etc, do you want to pay for an alarm system that calls you first, then you have to confirm if its a "real" fire or not, then call back and call 911...how long does all that take, the kitchen fire is now a full blown house fire...

I get what you are saying, but...
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:43 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

I'm all for smoke detectors alerting a resident to smoke.
I'm not in favour of the system dispatching 911 before talking to the home owner that is standing the kitchen.
Systems in hotels, where the desk person is present 24/7, have the protocol for the alarm company to call the desk before dispatching fire.
Our local hospital's system does not activate a call out on a pull station or a detector activation. That is why you have staff for.
That is how the residential systems should be.
The alarm is to initiate evacuation to save lives, not to save the house.
I am well aware of the speed of a fires spread.
Unless you live next to the station, the house will likely be lost but they build new ones every day.
Often the priority after the safety of the residents is protecting the adjacent exposure.

At every fire chief meeting, seminar and conference that I attend the common complaint of every department is alarm systems.
If you don't believe me, stop at a fire station some time, ask their opinion then let us know on this thread what they have to say.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-19-2018, 08:59 PM
Savage Bacon's Avatar
Savage Bacon Savage Bacon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Calgary-Red Deer area
Posts: 3,205
Default

This is silly. They have a system that reports the alarm as an emergency. It's just like calling the fire department when your significant other is going to make supper because you think they might burn the house down. Then when the fire department shows up and nothing burned down you tell them "false alarm guys thanks for coming out". Don't these systems have a temporary off setting?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:42 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage Bacon View Post
This is silly. They have a system that reports the alarm as an emergency. It's just like calling the fire department when your significant other is going to make supper because you think they might burn the house down. Then when the fire department shows up and nothing burned down you tell them "false alarm guys thanks for coming out". Don't these systems have a temporary off setting?
Yes they do.
If the customer defines the protocol for the service to call them before calling 911.
Most alarm companies fail to tell their customer the system uses the land line and it will be tied up so do not use that number for a contact.
You cannot call the alarm company on that line if the alarm is active.
If the system is through the Internet, that is not a problem.

Often I arrive to at the house to find the home owner trying to contact the alarm company to cancel the call.
The root cause is the alarm companies not educating the customer on how the system works.
They also fail to explain that they will be charged for false alarms that get dispatched.
I have seen where the system malfunctioned and the alarm company picked up the bill, but that is rare.
I had a gas suppression system installed in my server room.
Two detectors must alert to smoke before the system deploys the suppressant.
Residential could be set up that way so that a single detector above the burnt toast does not initiate a call.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:06 PM
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat View Post
No one said anything about home owners calling in false alarms.
We are talking about the problems with alarm systems waking up volunteers in the middle of the night when they have jobs to go to in the morning.
We are talking about trying up first responders so they are not available to respond to real emergencies.
If the alarm system is set up correctly the first call is to the home owner.
If needs to be set up so that the contact is not the land line if the system has it tied up with the alarm signal.
The customer needs to know how to silence the alarm and that they need to contact the system provider when they generate an alarm.
Are you willing to pay more tax to that there is enough first response available to handle real and false alarms?
The RCMP are also getting far to many false intrusions alarms and have contacted to county to create a by law so that the the home owner can be held accountable for those.
How much of tax increase are you willing to pay to fix the problem?
I'm talking about fires like Huntin Stuff's case. Electronic alarms are a different story.

Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:24 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
I'm talking about fires like Huntin Stuff's case. Electronic alarms are a different story.

Grizz
Well I was talking about the OP's original post, electronic alarms.
Can't help it if you drove off the road.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-20-2018, 07:54 AM
huntsolo1 huntsolo1 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat View Post
I'm all for smoke detectors alerting a resident to smoke.
I'm not in favour of the system dispatching 911 before talking to the home owner that is standing the kitchen.
Systems in hotels, where the desk person is present 24/7, have the protocol for the alarm company to call the desk before dispatching fire.
Our local hospital's system does not activate a call out on a pull station or a detector activation. That is why you have staff for.
That is how the residential systems should be.
The alarm is to initiate evacuation to save lives, not to save the house.
I am well aware of the speed of a fires spread.
Unless you live next to the station, the house will likely be lost but they build new ones every day.
Often the priority after the safety of the residents is protecting the adjacent exposure.

At every fire chief meeting, seminar and conference that I attend the common complaint of every department is alarm systems.
If you don't believe me, stop at a fire station some time, ask their opinion then let us know on this thread what they have to say.
Then your local hotels and hospitals are obviously under a different code than the cities. If a monitored (key word being monitored) alarm goes off at the Foothills Hospital in Calgary, fire trucks are going...they can be updated and told it’s a false alarm, and some trucks stood down, but at least one truck is going to that scene.

Obviously you’re on the job, I get it...others here are as well. No need for me to go to the nearest fire hall and ask their opinion... The original post was an alarm due to cooking...ie, smoke, and as I said, technically the system did what it is supposed to do...so technically not a false alarm. Malfunctions, repeat mistakes, malicious alarms and/or commercial alarms are all a different story.

We live in a society where people will blindly follow their GPS into a lake and wonder how it all went wrong, basically we live in a society where common sense is not common at all...and for these reasons we have police, EMS, Fire and others to help protect us from ourselves. Yes we pay for it, but such is life. I also pay taxes for other things where the value of return is far less, we all do.

Again, I was originally referring to the OP, where cooking was involved...details matter.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-20-2018, 10:22 AM
nube nube is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,778
Default

There is no cost to the home owner. If it continues there may be warning and possibly later be a fine but I have never heard of it unless it is a business.
When an alarm goes off the alarm company contacts the owner. The owner may say it is a false alarm but the trucks still are supposed to respond. One unit will respond hot and if there is enough info he will have the other 4 trucks respond cold to the call till it is confirmed false alarm. 5 trucks will respond min. to a house most times.
Old school was if enough info was given then only one truck would carry on to the call but these days and liability for the city and the way people are these days they are to carry on tot he call......
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.