Bitcoin

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Arty

Are you kidding? Do you know how blockchains work?

The whole thing is a long explicit record of every transaction made; essentially a very public, non-modifiable historic ledger. It's one of the most perfect transaction trackers ever devised, which can be read and copied by anyone, any time, at will.

Way out of context Arty. The authorities have had a hard time linking transactions with identities. The ledger is not anonymous, the identities of the parties in the transaction has been difficult or impossible to track.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Sigg

Gee, I wonder if the huge frenzy around the weed stocks are going to follow this exact same trend?

I think it's pretty much a certainty for most of them. Just a matter of timing now.

[ehrgeiz]

I'm certainly bullish on bitcoin. As I said in earlier posts in this thread the price will crash. I'm also confident it's value translated to fiat will surpass previous highs and the longer it takes the better.


Until then let me begin the eulogy again, dearly beloved we are gathered here today to celebrate the short life of bitcoin, again:

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/

[Jays toyz]

5700 today. Funny how those that post every increase don't bother commenting on the balloon popping. Let's see, if I bought in January, I would have made, let's see, carry the 1... Oh negative tons. Thankfully I didn't get suckered.

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by Jays toyz

5700 today. Funny how those that post every increase don't bother commenting on the balloon popping. Let's see, if I bought in January, I would have made, let's see, carry the 1... Oh negative tons. Thankfully I didn't get suckered.

Yup !

The only question is, how low will she go?!

Hope the boys here who, as you say; "got suckered", didn't bet the farm.
.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by Jays toyz

5700 today. Funny how those that post every increase don't bother commenting on the balloon popping. Let's see, if I bought in January, I would have made, let's see, carry the 1... Oh negative tons. Thankfully I didn't get suckered.

It's strange to make a statement like this. Isn't it just as pointless to say if I had bought in June 2017 I would be up over 200+ percent today, thankfully I didn't get suckered out of not buying some.

Perhaps in 6 months it will be below June 2017 pricing, or maybe it will be relatively flat or anything in-between or beyond. Perhaps it will fail completely in some context. Generally speaking I can make these same statements about any investment vehicle; stock, real estate etc.

I think I've outlined why I'm positive on bitcoin long term in earlier posts and I'm still contributing to the thread. My position on it is certainly a speculative risk and hey I may very well be wrong, but I'm betting I'm not.

Curious, will you return to this thread if the fiat price hits $25,000.00 or something silly and lament your decision not to buy in January?

[urban rednek]

Someone plotted the bitcoin history through a sound generator.
https://imgur.com/gallery/JDFeFgl

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

Someone plotted the bitcoin history through a sound generator.
https://imgur.com/gallery/JDFeFgl

Too funny.
If you didn't remortgage to get in, that is.

[AJKing]

I'm very confident in the crypto future, in general. Sure, it's a sector in its infancy and there is a lot of learning still going on. Some projects that only exist to capitalize on the mania of 'blockchain' as a marketing buzz word will likely fail and disappear, but blockchain is here to stay.

I will say that I think a lot of 2017's big runs were driven by Chinese money being filtered through exchanges in South Korea. When SK clamped down on exchanges in the early days of 2018, one of the rules that they put to the exchanges was: You must be a SK citizen to have an account at a SK-based exchange. That immediately closed the doors on any Chinese laundering.

The two other things that I think were responsible for the parabolic run up late last year were:
1) FOMO - I think US Thanksgiving 2017 led to a bunch of families connecting for the holidays and many conversations where the young bucks in the family chatting and explaining cryptos to the old guard. Some bought in then, based on the young bucks' advice, while others didn't. BUT when they all connected at Christmas again a month later and those T-giving investors had made big gains during the previous 3-4 weeks, it convinced the old guard the give in to their 'fear of missing out'. When they were finally roped in, established/experienced crypto people started selling a couple weeks later and the already hesitant old guard saw that as a sign that justified their initial hesitation. They started panic selling us down to the current lows.

2) Tether - there's lots documented about Tether, but no proof of Tether messing around with the price of Bitcoin specifically. IF Tether was being manufactured out of thin air as some claim (again, unproven and refuted), then they could drive the price of Bitcoin up as much as they wanted with no real cost to themselves. Tether is supposed to be backed 1:1 to the USD, but if it isn't, then Tether (the company) could simply invent more Tether tokens, and use those to buy BTC at whatever price it's listed at.

I would blame the Mt.Gox trustee sales as a significant reason for Bitcoin's capitulation, starting late last year. I think he pummelled the open markets with just enough regularity to damage investor confidence (but it was an abnormal situation where he had to liquidate a lot of Bitcoin due to bankruptcy proceedings). I don't think this is much of a problem moving forward.

But really, it's been a fascinating year. Last year, I was up 1300-1400%. This year, I'm still in profit, but down substantially. Last year, I avoided Bitcoin almost entirely, favouring Ether and others. This year, I still don't hold any BTC at the moment, but I'm getting more interested in it (now that the Mt.Gox trustee account has been apparently liquidated). I see ETH as the questionable one at the moment. I'm diversified at the moment though, holding 7 or so different cryptos. I expect a few of them will take a year or two to mature significantly. I fully expect to be holding them for a long time, and probably picking up more as time and opportunity allow.

Volatility is where you make money.
When they stop being volatile, then the world will consider using them as currencies.

(Side note: Bitcoin is legal tender in a number of countries already, including Japan... so, the chances that it will completely disappear is almost non-existant. Ether is the basis for a number of other country coins, and it has MANY companies building applications on it, so it is not likely to disappear any time soon - though it has a tough road ahead of it. EOS (EOSIO) is an entire sandbox that is building out it's own ecosystem from a $4b+ warchest worth of development funds. It likely won't be disappearing anytime soon, though it could stand to get through its birthing pains faster, and get into its growing pains... lol.)

Anyway, aside from all of that, if you truly want to see what the hubub is all about and get a better understanding of cryptos and their potential, this is an awesome video showing Andreas Antonopoulos (one of the most educated voices in crypto) educating the Canadian Senate on both what it is and where it's likely to go - an exceptionally smart dude explaining it to people who are mostly ignorant on those fronts. It's long, and dense, but interesting if you care about this sort of thing and wish to be informed on the future. $1000 well-placed dollars these days could easily be your full retirement fund if you park it in the right projects.

https://youtu.be/xUNGFZDO8mM

[SammyS778]

I'm new to the crypto game, just gonna invest in a part of Bitcoin

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Jays toyz

Seems like a worldwide Ponzi Scheme.

And the suckers are lining up. right up there with Derivative Futures.

Grizz

[JReed]

Bitcoin will never disappear, however, its value is significantly overpriced for something that has little to no utility and I would never invest in it. When I say no utlity, I mean the following:

-slow transaction speeds (1+ hours)
-High transaction fees ($20 last time I checked, depending on how much you buy)
- Bitcoin mining is terrible for the enviroment, high carbon emissions
- No longer decentralized (Miners own most of the available bitcoin)

There are a few other crypto’s out there that will eventually overtake Bitcoin because they provide a solution to every single one of Bitcoin’s issues I just listed. Those are the one’s I’ve invested in.

This is just my opinion, and this is not financial advise, do your own research.

[JD848]

First things to consider is what are my goals in investing in a shady money market and if I lose it all life goes on without that cash.

2nd Greed has taken down many a good person,so what is in life that is going to crank you over,is it money,loved ones,hurting yourself over a something you don't need to chase like the bitcion.

3rd If your in to much of a hurry to make it to fast and easy life has no goals ,but just a quick ending to a fast start with no meaning.

4th Setting your goals to a very high standard is very important both in work and investing ,so set them very very high and learn to walk before you run.Once your goals are meant there can be a very empty space within you,so don't rush it.So think hard on what it is your really after,hopefully not an empty space with no where to go but down.Money is just a tool for making ends meet,it won't buy you happiness or your friends and specially your health.

[AJKing]

Originally Posted by JReed

Bitcoin will never disappear, however, its value is significantly overpriced for something that has little to no utility and I would never invest in it. When I say no utlity, I mean the following:

-slow transaction speeds (1+ hours)
-High transaction fees ($20 last time I checked, depending on how much you buy)
- Bitcoin mining is terrible for the enviroment, high carbon emissions
- No longer decentralized (Miners own most of the available bitcoin)

There are a few other crypto’s out there that will eventually overtake Bitcoin because they provide a solution to every single one of Bitcoin’s issues I just listed. Those are the one’s I’ve invested in.

This is just my opinion, and this is not financial advise, do your own research.

Normally I would agree, but I think it'll be the first to climb when money starts flowing back into crypto. Doesn't mean you have to hold it, or use it to do transfers and such... just swing trade it to capture the first gains, then dump those into alts and ride those up. That said, I currently am not holding any Bitcoin at the moment. (Which I'm sure I'll come to regret... lol)


@JD848 - I don't much care about the money side of things... that's the result of strategy (which in addition to being a part of world-changing technology) is why I play in crypto. My original investment has been pulled out at this point, so I'm just playing strategy games with my gains.

For new people starting out, definitely deep-dive the projects that you are considering. I've been caught up in a couple that oversold and underdelivered. While I gained in them against the dollar, I dropped against Ether... and depending on your ultimate goals, that might not be what you are after. Either way, I learned some lessons and thankfully, they ultimately only brought me losses in the way of unrealized profit, but I'm still in significant profit overall since I started in early 2017.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

And the suckers are lining up. right up there with Derivative Futures.

Grizz

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/inves...ing/index.html

The fall is happening.

down under $5000 now.

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price/

[KGB]

The whole market is in a pooper! Look at tech stocks- they lost all yearly gains and some more!

[AJKing]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/inves...ing/index.html

The fall is happening.

down under $5000 now.

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price/

Yeah, $4500-ishUSD/6600-ishCAD at the moment.

There's a chance that much of this latest drop is more to do with people cashing out to spend some $$ on Black Friday sales and travel (US Thanksgiving is the biggest travel holiday for US citizens). And I'm curious if things are going to rise during, or right after the weekend. This year, the people who did NOT get in last Thanksgiving (and watched it hit $20k 4 weeks later) might be more inclined to get into it, especially because right now, the prices are pretty attractive.

Last Thanksgiving played out like I expected - Junior talking to the family about crypto, and those who were interested had to register for new accounts, so about a week after the holiday, the rise started. This year, I'm sure there will be some new accounts, but it's possible that we see a good bump from Thanksgiving into the coming weeks.

Personally, I wish had had a bunch more $ to dump into BTC and EOS at the moment. When they rise next time, they're expected to post new all time highs.

JMHO

[AJKing]

Originally Posted by KGB

The whole market is in a pooper! Look at tech stocks- they lost all yearly gains and some more!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by KGB

The whole market is in a pooper! Look at tech stocks- they lost all yearly gains and some more!

Bitcoin has been a good leading indicator for the general market over the past year it seems. Back in last December we had the spike up in Bitcoin followed by the start of its big drop. Shortly after in January, the US market rallied hard before correcting, lagging the first big drop in Bitcoin. Then we spent the spring and summer kind of treading water in both Bitcoin and stocks. Now Bitcoin is really dropping hard and the markets are starting to follow along. Speculative excess is getting wrung out here, first in Bitcoin, now in the FANGS and the rest of the market.

[KGB]

Hmmm, interesting theory. I would never think of connecting the Bitcoin and stock market performance that way.

[Ken07AOVette]

$4532 today

[bdub]

Around this time last year alot of folks were scrambling to get in just at the peak. Chalk up about an 80 percent loss in a years time.

[Gray Wolf]

I can't believe this stupid thread of mine is still going

Thank-you CryptoNuts!
.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

$4532 today

Now $3750 US

I believe history will show a phantom currency backed with nothing tangible will be nothing but a hope of some thinking they will get somerhing for nothing or believe the opposite of it is to good to be true then...

Plus what country wants this? The biggest beneficiaries of Bitcoin et al are cyber criminals.


Something to watch in 2019.

[AJKing]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Now $3750 US

I believe history will show a phantom currency backed with nothing tangible will be nothing but a hope of some thinking they will get somerhing for nothing or believe the opposite of it is to good to be true then...

Plus what country wants this? The biggest beneficiaries of Bitcoin et al are cyber criminals.


Something to watch in 2019.

"...backed with nothing tangible..." What is the dollar backed by? What about in 2008 when the banks collapsed, and people couldn't get their money out of the banks? Government issued fiat currencies haven't been backed by gold in decades. Government bonds maybe? But it being backed by government bonds means it's only supported if the bond has value, which is directly related to whether the country itself is doing well or not, and ultimately, that is using the peoples' money (tax money) to back a bond of the peoples' money - which is circular logic. And it's directly related to whether the government is functioning properly and in the best interest of its people or not (see Venezuela, Tanzania, the rest of the failed nation states in the world, etc...). When people (justifiably) have zero faith in their government, crypto becomes the currency of the people. You could argue that government fiat is backed by military might, but I prefer the idea of a currency that doesn't need to kill people to maintain its value.

"...what country wants this?" Crypto isn't made for countries, it is made for the people. Bitcoin specifically was made as a response to the governments of the world bailing out corporations instead of people in 2008. That said, Wall St is begging for regulatory framework so that they can jump into this sector, and the head of the IMF recently told the banks of the world to explore ways to get into crypto and utilize the underlying technology. And there are near daily patent applications by banks relating to crypto. Many countries are looking at making their own cryptocurrency to replace their physical fiat. Cash itself is becoming increasingly rare in the developed world anyway. Try withdrawing $10,000 from a bank in cash and you'll have to wait a few days, because the banks generally don't have it on hand to give you.

And crypto is much bigger than Bitcoin... 3.5 billion people in the world are unbanked (don't have access to banks, banking services, etc). Crypto will bring those people into a world economy that doesn't need banks (because a cheap cell phone with NFC can operate as a crypto bank capable of doing transactions), with currencies that aren't beholden to the meddling of governments that drive inflation through bad policy or antics, or centralized banks that just bilk the people by charging interest on each dollar they create, enslaving nations under mountains of debt that can never be repaid.

"The biggest beneficiaries of Bitcoin et al are cyber criminals." Sure, some users are criminals, but the percentage is FAR less than the percentage of criminals using cash. 80+% of physical dollars have cocaine residue on them. Pallets of cash get flown all over the world to be used to bribe warlords so that they will support resource wars by foreign governments, while ignoring what those warlords do to the locals. Cash, central banks, and governments have FAR more blood on their hands than Bitcoin does or ever will. Or real estate - the biggest method of laundering money in the world. If your moral stand against Bitcoin is that criminals might use it, then you probably shouldn't use cash, and never own property either. (Meanwhile, crypto has created millionaires and billionaires, many of whom have moved to Puerto Rico partly because of its tax break status, but also to help rebuild the island's infrastructure since governments have so miserably failed them after the storms ruined the pace a couple years ago. Crypto users tend to have a pretty altruistic intent. They're the people that see government misspending trillions while people starve, and they're choosing to try and do something about it, using technology.) Bitcoin isn't anonymous anyway, so anyone using it for criminal deeds is a fool.

There is a ton of value in cryptocurrencies, and even more in blockchain, to change the way the world works at a fundamental level. Personally, I'm excited by the idea that over half the world's population will be able to join the world economy; that cryptos are not owned by countries or central banks making them non-debt based currencies like fiat, and the idea that blockchain voting systems can make governance completely transparent and democratic while holding governments accountable.

At the risk of sounding rude, if sounds like you have been pretty misinformed by people with an agenda (mainstream news) or people who simply don't know what they're talking about, and I would encourage you to watch any YouTube videos you can on guys like Andreas Antonopoulos (or Vitalek Buterin, or Dan Larimer) to get up to speed on this sector before you miss out on one of the biggest revolutions since the Industrial Revolution or the birth of the Internet, because blockchain and crypto are potentially that fundamentally transformative.

Regulatory framework is coming to crypto which should level out the huge swings in the markets, and lead to more organic sustained growth. In the meantime, there is lots of money to be made in the volatility. I think it's a great time to buy into any of the top 15 projects. I'm sitting on my holdings for a couple years just to see where they go. Last year was 1400% gains for me. 2018 clawed a lot of that back. Market cycles suggest 2019-2020 will be bigger. Time will tell.

(And I'm someone who doesn't like Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't think it'll go up, but I don't currently own any. There are FAR better crypto projects out there in my opinion.)

[bdub]

Originally Posted by AJKing

"...backed with nothing tangible..." What is the dollar backed by? What about in 2008 when the banks collapsed, and people couldn't get their money out of the banks? Government issued fiat currencies haven't been backed by gold in decades. Government bonds maybe? But it being backed by government bonds means it's only supported if the bond has value, which is directly related to whether the country itself is doing well or not, and ultimately, that is using the peoples' money (tax money) to back a bond of the peoples' money - which is circular logic. And it's directly related to whether the government is functioning properly and in the best interest of its people or not (see Venezuela, Tanzania, the rest of the failed nation states in the world, etc...). When people (justifiably) have zero faith in their government, crypto becomes the currency of the people. You could argue that government fiat is backed by military might, but I prefer the idea of a currency that doesn't need to kill people to maintain its value.



"...what country wants this?" Crypto isn't made for countries, it is made for the people. Bitcoin specifically was made as a response to the governments of the world bailing out corporations instead of people in 2008. That said, Wall St is begging for regulatory framework so that they can jump into this sector, and the head of the IMF recently told the banks of the world to explore ways to get into crypto and utilize the underlying technology. And there are near daily patent applications by banks relating to crypto. Many countries are looking at making their own cryptocurrency to replace their physical fiat. Cash itself is becoming increasingly rare in the developed world anyway. Try withdrawing $10,000 from a bank in cash and you'll have to wait a few days, because the banks generally don't have it on hand to give you.

And crypto is much bigger than Bitcoin... 3.5 billion people in the world are unbanked (don't have access to banks, banking services, etc). Crypto will bring those people into a world economy that doesn't need banks (because a cheap cell phone with NFC can operate as a crypto bank capable of doing transactions), with currencies that aren't beholden to the meddling of governments that drive inflation through bad policy or antics, or centralized banks that just bilk the people by charging interest on each dollar they create, enslaving nations under mountains of debt that can never be repaid.

"The biggest beneficiaries of Bitcoin et al are cyber criminals." Sure, some users are criminals, but the percentage is FAR less than the percentage of criminals using cash. 80+% of physical dollars have cocaine residue on them. Pallets of cash get flown all over the world to be used to bribe warlords so that they will support resource wars by foreign governments, while ignoring what those warlords do to the locals. Cash, central banks, and governments have FAR more blood on their hands than Bitcoin does or ever will. Or real estate - the biggest method of laundering money in the world. If your moral stand against Bitcoin is that criminals might use it, then you probably shouldn't use cash, and never own property either. (Meanwhile, crypto has created millionaires and billionaires, many of whom have moved to Puerto Rico partly because of its tax break status, but also to help rebuild the island's infrastructure since governments have so miserably failed them after the storms ruined the pace a couple years ago. Crypto users tend to have a pretty altruistic intent. They're the people that see government misspending trillions while people starve, and they're choosing to try and do something about it, using technology.) Bitcoin isn't anonymous anyway, so anyone using it for criminal deeds is a fool.

There is a ton of value in cryptocurrencies, and even more in blockchain, to change the way the world works at a fundamental level. Personally, I'm excited by the idea that over half the world's population will be able to join the world economy; that cryptos are not owned by countries or central banks making them non-debt based currencies like fiat, and the idea that blockchain voting systems can make governance completely transparent and democratic while holding governments accountable.

At the risk of sounding rude, if sounds like you have been pretty misinformed by people with an agenda (mainstream news) or people who simply don't know what they're talking about, and I would encourage you to watch any YouTube videos you can on guys like Andreas Antonopoulos (or Vitalek Buterin, or Dan Larimer) to get up to speed on this sector before you miss out on one of the biggest revolutions since the Industrial Revolution or the birth of the Internet, because blockchain and crypto are potentially that fundamentally transformative.

Regulatory framework is coming to crypto which should level out the huge swings in the markets, and lead to more organic sustained growth. In the meantime, there is lots of money to be made in the volatility. I think it's a great time to buy into any of the top 15 projects. I'm sitting on my holdings for a couple years just to see where they go. Last year was 1400% gains for me. 2018 clawed a lot of that back. Market cycles suggest 2019-2020 will be bigger. Time will tell.

(And I'm someone who doesn't like Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't think it'll go up, but I don't currently own any. There are FAR better crypto projects out there in my opinion.)

In the 2008-09 financial crisis about 300 US banks failed. Zero Canadian banks failed. No individual depositors lost any money as deposits were insured. During the savings and loans crisis the States had thousands of banks fail. Not a good thing but the system has some failsafes built into it, both in the US and here to prevent depositors from loosing their deposits. Bitcoin et al has no such backing, it offers no insurance, no backing by any government. Holders have had entire fortunes of crypto stolen with no recourse. Cryptos value is tied to “nothing” literally, except the greater fool who is willing to pay more or less than the last fool.

No doubt the idea of blockchain has value in the financial world, but that is a far different thing than crypto. It is comparing apples to oranges. The technology is where the value lies to the conventional banking system, not the crypto. Its a complete scam.

If you are really worried about your deposits disappearing in a financial crisis there are far better places than crypto to store value. Buy some gold. At least that “currency” has a history of holding its value going back forever. Can’t really say that about crypto. Last year in December the suckers were out in full force before the pop. You can look back to the beginning of this thread as one small example. They were preaching it up everywhere back then as well. But who knows, time will indeed tell I guess.

[AJKing]

Originally Posted by bdub

In the 2008-09 financial crisis about 300 US banks failed. Zero Canadian banks failed. No individual depositors lost any money as deposits were insured. During the savings and loans crisis the States had thousands of banks fail. Not a good thing but the system has some failsafes built into it, both in the US and here to prevent depositors from loosing their deposits. Bitcoin et al has no such backing, it offers no insurance, no backing by any government. Holders have had entire fortunes of crypto stolen with no recourse. Cryptos value is tied to “nothing” literally, except the greater fool who is willing to pay more or less than the last fool.

No doubt the idea of blockchain has value in the financial world, but that is a far different thing than crypto. It is comparing apples to oranges. The technology is where the value lies to the conventional banking system, not the crypto. Its a complete scam.

If you are really worried about your deposits disappearing in a financial crisis there are far better places than crypto to store value. Buy some gold. At least that “currency” has a history of holding its value going back forever. Can’t really say that about crypto. Last year in December the suckers were out in full force before the pop. You can look back to the beginning of this thread as one small example. They were preaching it up everywhere back then as well. But who knows, time will indeed tell I guess.

Right, the US banks failed and were given taxpayer money. So, the taxpayer is the guarantee for the corporations who looted their own customers. Yes, no Canadian banks failed - though they came close. (I'm curious how much of the $11b GM got from the Canadian government.)

The conventional banking system is garbage. Why should anyone care if they adopt crypto or not? Frankly, I kinda hope they don't. They're an unnecessary poison. I don't really want traditional finance involved in it at all, but there's no way they won't dive in as soon as they can. The BTC futures launch were a big factor in the craziness last December. But Tether is the biggest culprit in that run-up IMO.

The correct response would have been what Iceland did - fire and jail the politicians and bankers responsible, and rather than bail out the banks, the government took those taxpayer funds and paid off a bunch of mortgages for people. They had a very quick recovery because they put the blame where it should have gone and prioritized their people instead of corporations and politicians.

This is the very early days of crypto. Infrastructure is still being built out. Dapps are coming. If you're worried that the technology and the potential of each blockchain doesn't have enough value for you to buy into, then don't. That's your choice. I work in an I.P. based industry, so to me, ideas have value. Execution has even more value.

There hasn't been a lot of crypto holdings that haven't been recovered. Even the worst of them - Mt. Gox - saw people get holdings back, and while it might not have been 1:1 BTC for their loss:return, I'm pretty sure they got their cash equivalent back, at a minimum. I'm pretty sure the ETH DAO issue got returned through the first hard fork (and that wasn't an ETH issue, that was an external DAO issue... like an issue with Firefox that runs on Windows doesn't mean the issue is with Windows). Some ICOs have done exit scams, but it was pretty obvious if anyone bothered to actually look into the projects themselves that those were much higher risk.

Sure, gold and silver are good options. But no traditional market went up 1400% last year.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by AJKing

Right, the US banks failed and were given taxpayer money. So, the taxpayer is the guarantee for the corporations who looted their own customers. Yes, no Canadian banks failed - though they came close. (I'm curious how much of the $11b GM got from the Canadian government.)

The conventional banking system is garbage. Why should anyone care if they adopt crypto or not? Frankly, I kinda hope they don't. They're an unnecessary poison. I don't really want traditional finance involved in it at all, but there's no way they won't dive in as soon as they can. The BTC futures launch were a big factor in the craziness last December. But Tether is the biggest culprit in that run-up IMO.

The correct response would have been what Iceland did - fire and jail the politicians and bankers responsible, and rather than bail out the banks, the government took those taxpayer funds and paid off a bunch of mortgages for people. They had a very quick recovery because they put the blame where it should have gone and prioritized their people instead of corporations and politicians.

This is the very early days of crypto. Infrastructure is still being built out. Dapps are coming. If you're worried that the technology and the potential of each blockchain doesn't have enough value for you to buy into, then don't. That's your choice. I work in an I.P. based industry, so to me, ideas have value. Execution has even more value.

There hasn't been a lot of crypto holdings that haven't been recovered. Even the worst of them - Mt. Gox - saw people get holdings back, and while it might not have been 1:1 BTC for their loss:return, I'm pretty sure they got their cash equivalent back, at a minimum. I'm pretty sure the ETH DAO issue got returned through the first hard fork (and that wasn't an ETH issue, that was an external DAO issue... like an issue with Firefox that runs on Windows doesn't mean the issue is with Windows). Some ICOs have done exit scams, but it was pretty obvious if anyone bothered to actually look into the projects themselves that those were much higher risk.

Sure, gold and silver are good options. But no traditional market went up 1400% last year.

Not saying that our current banking system is perfect but it leaves a lot to be desired over what crypto has to offer so far. Adapting blockchain into the current system will do nothing to change systematic problems that occur. We are still going to have financial crises, and government bailouts in the future with or without blockchain technology. It is inherent in every financial system through out history. Just like we are always going to have bubbles like crypto, the tech bubble, the housing bubble and so on. It is a identifying feature of human trade and behaviour.

As for crypto theft, I think you have your facts wrong. So far not a single cent has been paid out to the losers in the Mt. Gox theft although the bankruptcy trustees are taking online claims against the remaining holdings "a few years after the theft." I couldn't find any evidence of crypto holders getting a cent back from any exchange so far. If you can point me to one that would be great. I would bet however that the amount that eventually gets paid to the victims of crypto theft, if any, will amount to pennies on the dollar.

No traditional market went up 1400%. Ok, so crypto had huge gains only to fall around 80% last year. To anyone that looks back into the history of bubbles, crypto was a perfect example. To me it looks very much like the internet bubble of 2000. Sure the internet survived and produced many successful companies. (Ask any investor in the broader Nasdaq index how long it took to get back to even after that bubble popped.) It fleeced plenty of investors as they pilled in during the euphoria and then, just as quickly, piled back out when the panic began. "Its different this time" is a common thought as these things get going, but it never is. They all end the same way. Most get killed while a handful make a mint on the backs of the suckers.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by AJKing

"...backed with nothing tangible..." What is the dollar backed by? What about in 2008 when the banks collapsed, and people couldn't get their money out of the banks? Government issued fiat currencies haven't been backed by gold in decades. Government bonds maybe? But it being backed by government bonds means it's only supported if the bond has value, which is directly related to whether the country itself is doing well or not, and ultimately, that is using the peoples' money (tax money) to back a bond of the peoples' money - which is circular logic. And it's directly related to whether the government is functioning properly and in the best interest of its people or not (see Venezuela, Tanzania, the rest of the failed nation states in the world, etc...). When people (justifiably) have zero faith in their government, crypto becomes the currency of the people. You could argue that government fiat is backed by military might, but I prefer the idea of a currency that doesn't need to kill people to maintain its value.

"...what country wants this?" Crypto isn't made for countries, it is made for the people. Bitcoin specifically was made as a response to the governments of the world bailing out corporations instead of people in 2008. That said, Wall St is begging for regulatory framework so that they can jump into this sector, and the head of the IMF recently told the banks of the world to explore ways to get into crypto and utilize the underlying technology. And there are near daily patent applications by banks relating to crypto. Many countries are looking at making their own cryptocurrency to replace their physical fiat. Cash itself is becoming increasingly rare in the developed world anyway. Try withdrawing $10,000 from a bank in cash and you'll have to wait a few days, because the banks generally don't have it on hand to give you.

And crypto is much bigger than Bitcoin... 3.5 billion people in the world are unbanked (don't have access to banks, banking services, etc). Crypto will bring those people into a world economy that doesn't need banks (because a cheap cell phone with NFC can operate as a crypto bank capable of doing transactions), with currencies that aren't beholden to the meddling of governments that drive inflation through bad policy or antics, or centralized banks that just bilk the people by charging interest on each dollar they create, enslaving nations under mountains of debt that can never be repaid.

"The biggest beneficiaries of Bitcoin et al are cyber criminals." Sure, some users are criminals, but the percentage is FAR less than the percentage of criminals using cash. 80+% of physical dollars have cocaine residue on them. Pallets of cash get flown all over the world to be used to bribe warlords so that they will support resource wars by foreign governments, while ignoring what those warlords do to the locals. Cash, central banks, and governments have FAR more blood on their hands than Bitcoin does or ever will. Or real estate - the biggest method of laundering money in the world. If your moral stand against Bitcoin is that criminals might use it, then you probably shouldn't use cash, and never own property either. (Meanwhile, crypto has created millionaires and billionaires, many of whom have moved to Puerto Rico partly because of its tax break status, but also to help rebuild the island's infrastructure since governments have so miserably failed them after the storms ruined the pace a couple years ago. Crypto users tend to have a pretty altruistic intent. They're the people that see government misspending trillions while people starve, and they're choosing to try and do something about it, using technology.) Bitcoin isn't anonymous anyway, so anyone using it for criminal deeds is a fool.

There is a ton of value in cryptocurrencies, and even more in blockchain, to change the way the world works at a fundamental level. Personally, I'm excited by the idea that over half the world's population will be able to join the world economy; that cryptos are not owned by countries or central banks making them non-debt based currencies like fiat, and the idea that blockchain voting systems can make governance completely transparent and democratic while holding governments accountable.

At the risk of sounding rude, if sounds like you have been pretty misinformed by people with an agenda (mainstream news) or people who simply don't know what they're talking about, and I would encourage you to watch any YouTube videos you can on guys like Andreas Antonopoulos (or Vitalek Buterin, or Dan Larimer) to get up to speed on this sector before you miss out on one of the biggest revolutions since the Industrial Revolution or the birth of the Internet, because blockchain and crypto are potentially that fundamentally transformative.

Regulatory framework is coming to crypto which should level out the huge swings in the markets, and lead to more organic sustained growth. In the meantime, there is lots of money to be made in the volatility. I think it's a great time to buy into any of the top 15 projects. I'm sitting on my holdings for a couple years just to see where they go. Last year was 1400% gains for me. 2018 clawed a lot of that back. Market cycles suggest 2019-2020 will be bigger. Time will tell.

(And I'm someone who doesn't like Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't think it'll go up, but I don't currently own any. There are FAR better crypto projects out there in my opinion.)

The Canadian Dollar is backed up by our economy and GDP. All open ad transparent. Bitcoin...nada.

If countries don’t want it then use is very limited. Failure to go mainstream is bad.

Non traceable currency transactions is for criminals. Everyone else don’t care. Look at the burgeoning cyber scams such as data hostaging. Without bitcoin it makes payment to release data far more difficult.

As for those who jumped on at $24,000 or $10,000 or $5,000 a bitcoin...wish you luck.

[urban rednek]

Dropping this here for continuity of the cryptocurrency discussion.
How does $250 million just disappear? (besides tax dollars wasted by government )
For those that do not want to follow these links, here are the stories from the CBC site, minus the embedded hotlinks.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/qua...ency-1.5005236

Canadian cryptocurrency exchange QuadrigaCX seeks creditor protection after founder's death
Canada's largest cryptocurrency exchange is due in court on Tuesday as it seeks creditor protection in the wake of the sudden death of its founder and chief executive in December and missing cryptocurrency worth roughly $190 million.

Vancouver-based QuadrigaCX says it filed an application for creditor protection on Jan. 31 and the Nova Scotia Supreme Court will be asked on Feb. 5 to appoint a monitor to oversee the proceedings.

In an affidavit, the widow of Gerald Cotten, Quadriga's founder, CEO and sole director, said he died suddenly on Dec. 9 due to complications from Crohn's disease.
Court filings show that after his death, Quadriga employees have been unable to locate or access roughly $190 million worth of digital money.

The company says in a statement that it has been trying to "locate and secure our very significant cryptocurrency reserves," for several weeks, but "unfortunately, these efforts have not been successful."
In Quadriga's legal filings it says it currently owes roughly 115,000 users $70 million in currency, plus an additional $180 million worth of cryptocurrencies, based on market prices in December — most of which can't be accessed.

Court documents show that Quadriga had been facing liquidity issues over the past year but a major issue arose in January 2018 when CIBC froze roughly $25.7 million of its funds held in the account of a third-party processor.

More to this story by Yvette Brend is a CBC Vancouver journalist.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ndia-1.5002955

One of Canada's largest cryptocurrency exchanges has filed for creditor protection in Nova Scotia, leaving thousands of fearful customers with frozen assets and scant information.

This comes in the wake of financial and legal troubles with the five-year-old B.C.-based exchange platform — and news that its 30-year old founder, Gerald Cotten, died unexpectedly last December in India.

On Jan. 31, QuadrigaCX announced it had filed an application in the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia for creditor protection, after months of transaction delays.
Cryptocurrency leaders were shaken.

The volatile industry is already plagued by a lack of consumer confidence, said Dean Skurka, a vice president at Bitbuy.ca, a platform for buying virtual currency.

"This really highlights the need for the government to take action and regulate cryptocurrency exchanges," Skurka said in an interview from Toronto.
Bitbuy.ca president Adam Goldman said he met Cotten, Quadriga's founder, years ago in Toronto at the launch of the first bitcoin ATM.

"He was a quiet, serious guy with big plans ...an honest guy," he said.

Skurka said he was saddened to hear the company had devolved into a tailspin, and then tragedy.
Frozen funds

Troubles began when CIBC took legal action and froze almost $26-million of Quadriga's funds in early 2018.

According to court documents, the bank alleged that money from 465 deposits was held in accounts belonging to the exchange's payment processor, Costodian Inc., and owner Jose Reyes.

The bank alleged it was unable to determine who the money belonged to and began investigating.
Then, early this year, a post appeared explaining that on Dec. 9, Cotten had died while working in an orphanage in India.

Global Affairs Canada confirmed that a Canadian had died in India and they had provided assistance to the family but, under the Privacy Act, could offer no more.
Encrypted laptop

In an affidavit filed in B.C. Supreme Court as part of probate proceedings on Jan. 31, Cotten's widow, Jennifer Robertson, described trying to cope with corporate issues after Cotten's death.

She described people posting inaccurate speculation on social media about "whether he is really dead."

The affidavit said Robertson was left searching the couple's Nova Scotia home and Cotten's encrypted laptop for business records and missing coins.
She described hiring a security expert to help recover information about the Quadriga Fintech Solutions Corp. and several other associated companies Cotten had registered in B.C.

She said Cotten's companies had more than 115-thousand clients who had invested assets worth $70-million, which she estimates had grown to $250-million by December 2018.
As executor of Cotten's estate and owner of 43 per cent of the company's shares, Robertson filed a petition in civil court in B.C. on Jan. 22 describing a "rare and exceptional situation."

It said the company was left with no officers, directors or office space.

"Most of the business was being conducted by Gerry wherever he and his computer were located."

And then there were the locked digital wallets.
The wallets

Any user who wants to transfer bitcoin requires a wallet — located on a server.

So-called hot wallets are for live transactions — while so-called cold wallets are for storage to keep coins safe from hackers.

Robertson's affidavit says that assets tallied in those wallets show that Quadriga owes clients approximately $250-million as of Dec. 17, 2018.

But court documents say the company can only access "hot" wallets at this time.
Troubles blamed on banks

Nearly a year before Cotten died in December 2018, the company had legal trouble.

In January of that year, CIBC froze $26-million-worth of assets after finding irregularities with payment processing.

A 2018 Ontario Superior Court of Justice document says $67-million worth of transactions ended up improperly transferred into the personal account of Costodian Inc, the payment processor.

But Quadriga alleged the bank was wrong and only targeted the exchange because of mistrust of virtual currencies and called fears "that there must be shady dealings afoot" offensive and unsubstantiated.
Clients frustrated

All this caused delays.

Elvis Cavalic of Calgary said that he bought a few hundred dollars of bitcoin using Quadriga's platform.

When he tried to withdraw $15,000 in his account in October, he could not.

"This is a tough lesson learned. I would probably avoid [cryptocurrency] in the future," said Cavalic.

'"They've left us completely in the dark. I'm kind of preparing for the worst."

CBC reached out to lawyers for CIBC and Robertson for comment but did not receive a response by deadline.