Albertan's Want More Antelope

[packhuntr]

With the past Deerhunter induced thread disaster here, its apparent more antelope are required. With pronghorn habitat well below carrying capacity, i wonder how many people are interested in herd betterment, versus cage matches and multi man brawls over a tag?
New draw stats are out. Any interesting numbers in there?

[farmerbrown]

I'd be interested to know what the actual carrying capacity is in Alberta for Antelope. I would guess that changes from year to year due to rainfall etc..

Edit: Sorry PH I didn't read your post correctly. I really don't know much about the Antelope situation but from what I can gather Some of the States like Montana have sustained large numbers of Antelope and certainly don't seem to have issues like we have here with ten and twelve year waits.

So what are they doing that we aren't would be my question? Can we learn from their management practices and bring our population up substantialy?

[packhuntr]

I might wonder if Alberta is capable of harbouring "too many antelope". Carrying capacity would be a massive number with next to zero social issues.

[deadeye]

I remember in the '80s and trophy tag came every 3-4 years and non-trophy came with 2 tags. Seems to me the population at the time was 17000 - 20000

[packhuntr]

Alot less desired resource utilization back then though deadeye.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I might wonder if Alberta is capable of harbouring "too many antelope". Carrying capacity would be a massive number with next to zero social issues.

Alberta's antelope represent the northern extent of their range, populations here are vulnerable, irregardless of the carrying capacity.

Grizz

[7mmremmag]

I think one issue is like Grizzly Adams said, this is the northern extent of their range. From what I understand they calve fairly early and one good late spring snow storm can kill a lot of new born antelope.
Im a P9 and have never shot an antelope, but would be willing to take 4yrs off from applying if everyone else did and even if we reduced outfitter numbers by half.
I definitely see a guided hunt for antelope in the states in my very near future.

[packhuntr]

Grizz. Thats understood i believe. Irregardless of that fact, our herd could be much stronger, fast, resulting in higher yield. Actual mortality in the hard winters you allude too would be higher in those years, however survival rates of stong specimines would be higher as well.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by 7mmremmag

I think one issue is like Grizzly Adams said, this is the northern extent of their range. From what I understand they calve fairly early and one good late spring snow storm can kill a lot of new born antelope.
Im a P9 and have never shot an antelope, but would be willing to take 4yrs off from applying if everyone else did and even if we reduced outfitter numbers by half.
I definitely see a guided hunt for antelope in the states in my very near future.

Why would any closure of a trophy pronghorn hunt, or reduction with trophy pronghorn even be tabled? There is ZERO benefit.

[ward]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Grizz. Thats understood i believe. Irregardless of that fact, our herd could be much stronger, fast, resulting in higher yield. Actual mortality in the hard winters you allude too would be higher in those years, however survival rates of stong specimines would be higher as well.

So if you were responsible for a Pronghorn Recovery Program in Alberta and everything was on the table, what would it look like ?

[7mmremmag]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Why would any closure of a trophy pronghorn hunt, or reduction with trophy pronghorn even be tabled? There is ZERO benefit.

I guess im unsure of what your proposing here?
How do you plan on increasing antelope numbers without reducing tag numbers?
We have no control over mortality due to mother nature.

[7mmremmag]

Originally Posted by ward

So if you were responsible for a Pronghorn Recovery Program in Alberta and everything was on the table, what would it look like ?

x2

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by 7mmremmag

I guess im unsure of what your proposing here?
How do you plan on increasing antelope numbers without reducing tag numbers?
We have no control over mortality due to mother nature.

X2.. I'm not clear on what OP is trying to say. AB has too many Antelope? AB has too few Antelope? More tags should be issued? Less tags should be issued?

[walking buffalo]

The answers are simple.

Every fall after hunting season we herd all the Pronghorns down south to Arizona,
With return passage.

Or,
We could eliminate all the ranchers and farmers in potential Pronghorn habitat.
The homesteaders can stay, with a one child policy, no immigrants,
The cows and crops and fences must go.
No industrial activity of any kind, that includes outfitters.

Buffalo would have to be allowed back to range freely.
Pronghorns need Buffalo.

And we could drain Lake Peck on the Missouri.

[packhuntr]

Boys im shocked. Lets point directly at it then.
There have been 868 does that are a product of, and resident to our high plains province, hunter killed since our 3 year die off subsided in 2010.
If anyone is capable, please run off some numbers on the calculator. Draw stats provide annual non trophy harvest numbers.
Calculate each doe for annual recruitment of not a biologically set number of two fawns per year, but knock it back to one, to account for predation/spring weather mortality.
Then for fun, take that total multi year recruitment number and divide it by two. Just for fun on paper, kill half those fawns.
Come on back with that number.

To answer, what might I do.
I would kill the non trophy hunt. After afew years of trophy only draws, and pending herd response, i would re initiate both archery and trophy ant. draws as EITHER SEX draws. Complete and natural outcome of something along these simplistic lines, WILL UNQUESTIONABLY create a stronger herd, higher antelope population and subsequently drastically higher allowable harvest rates.

Just my thoughts.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by farmerbrown

I'd be interested to know what the actual carrying capacity is in Alberta for Antelope. I would guess that changes from year to year due to rainfall etc..

Edit: Sorry PH I didn't read your post correctly. I really don't know much about the Antelope situation but from what I can gather Some of the States like Montana have sustained large numbers of Antelope and certainly don't seem to have issues like we have here with ten and twelve year waits.

So what are they doing that we aren't would be my question? Can we learn from their management practices and bring our population up substantialy?

Montana population 1 mil
Alberta population 4 mil

and

as said before.......the northern range of antelope doesn't extend far enough north

[DJS]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Boys im shocked. Lets point directly at it then.
There have been 868 does that are a product of, and resident to our high plains province, hunter killed since our 3 year die off subsided in 2010.
If anyone is capable, please run off some numbers on the calculator. Draw stats provide annual non trophy harvest numbers.
Calculate each doe for annual recruitment of not a biologically set number of two fawns per year, but knock it back to one, to account for predation/spring weather mortality.
Then for fun, take that total multi year recruitment number and divide it by two. Just for fun on paper, kill half those fawns.
Come on back with that number.

To answer, what might I do.
I would kill the non trophy hunt. After afew years of trophy only draws, and pending herd response, i would re initiate both archery and trophy ant. draws as EITHER SEX draws. Complete and natural outcome of something along these simplistic lines, WILL UNQUESTIONABLY create a stronger herd, higher antelope population and subsequently drastically higher allowable harvest rates.

Just my thoughts.

Seems very logical to me.

[Torkdiesel]

He's talking about taking steps to help the antelope population. Predator control, fencing projects, habitat development, transplanting antelope from the US, eliminating the doe harvests, or any other ideas people might have

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

He's talking about taking steps to help the antelope population. Predator control, fencing projects, habitat development, transplanting antelope from the US, eliminating the doe harvests, or any other ideas people might have

All of which are great ideas. I've never understood shooting does/cows when populations are low.

[7mmremmag]

I definitely do agree with dropping the non trophy hunt.
But it sure does seem like SRD lets our populations of ungulates go wayy to low before eliminating doe/cow tags.

Maybe we could trade the Yanks some grizzlies for some antelope?

[3blade]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Boys im shocked. Lets point directly at it then.
There have been 868 does that are a product of, and resident to our high plains province, hunter killed since our 3 year die off subsided in 2010.
If anyone is capable, please run off some numbers on the calculator. Draw stats provide annual non trophy harvest numbers.
Calculate each doe for annual recruitment of not a biologically set number of two fawns per year, but knock it back to one, to account for predation/spring weather mortality.
Then for fun, take that total multi year recruitment number and divide it by two. Just for fun on paper, kill half those fawns.
Come on back with that number.

To answer, what might I do.
I would kill the non trophy hunt. After afew years of trophy only draws, and pending herd response, i would re initiate both archery and trophy ant. draws as EITHER SEX draws. Complete and natural outcome of something along these simplistic lines, WILL UNQUESTIONABLY create a stronger herd, higher antelope population and subsequently drastically higher allowable harvest rates.

Just my thoughts.

I like your idea. Never put in for the non trophy tag myself, cant understand why anyone would want to kill a female of a species that is somewhat rare. Just doesn't make sense from a conservation perspective. And I've killed plenty of does in high deer population areas.

I'd take it a step further though, there is no reason for an either sex tag. That just results in hunters killing whatever they see on the last day of their hunt. Keep it the way it is, Archery and Trophy, with 4 inch minimum.

Habitat improvement, especially fence remediation, would go a long way. As WB suggested we could work with Montana to eliminate or minimize migration barriers, which would help both jurisdictions.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The answers are simple.

Every fall after hunting season we herd all the Pronghorns down south to Arizona,
With return passage.

Or,
We could eliminate all the ranchers and farmers in potential Pronghorn habitat.
The homesteaders can stay, with a one child policy, no immigrants,
The cows and crops and fences must go.
No industrial activity of any kind, that includes outfitters.

Buffalo would have to be allowed back to range freely.
Pronghorns need Buffalo.

And we could drain Lake Peck on the Missouri.

I know your being your usual sarcastic self, but what do you mean when you say that Pronghorns need Buffalo? Was there a kernal of truth in the idea that at one time Pronghorns needed Buffalo in the ecosystem to help survive?
As a side note, a fellow AO member is in Wyoming right now texting me pics of all the pronghorns he has passed on so far waiting for Mr. Big. He is bowhunting and say's he is seeing upwards or 50 antelope every day on the ranch he is hunting on. A lot of the bucks he is passing on would be a definite shooter here in AB.
Also had a rattlesnake in his blind yesterday morning. LOL

[packhuntr]

Im certain WB will answer in detail, but the truth is, without bison our antelope need management that promotes strong numbers. Any rancher will mirror the thought of this fact, and state such.
Our pronghorn are capable of surviving kill winters anywhere antelope choose to pit in and winter up in the west, but require numbers to do it.
For Alberta to have a reliable and strong herd, we must first PROMOTE ONE

[packhuntr]

Wheres Deerhunter? I know your here watching lol! Your a numbers man, you should start a poll and do a sample survey here on Alberta Outdoorsmen. Survey people on whether alberta hunters desire the continuation of a non trophy antelope draw code, or a stronger herd in short order, resulting in higher harvest allocation and natural and subsequent shift back toward consumptive use values through either sex draws.

[packhuntr]

Dang, only ten people want to talk about antelope. Well, excluding Walking Buffalo with his attempt at humour.
Guess maybe should have called for the heads of both the 40 antelope bucks and the outfitters that get them? Bet thered be lots of attention then, if a guy could stomach the lack of attention paid toward antelope.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Dang, only ten people want to talk about antelope. Well, excluding Walking Buffalo with his attempt at humour.
Guess maybe should have called for the heads of both the 40 antelope bucks and the outfitters that get them? Bet thered be lots of attention then, if a guy could stomach the lack of attention paid toward antelope.

Much like turkeys, goats and now moose, there is a pretty good chunk of occasional/recreational hunters who will never get the chance and so they aren't invested and don't really care. How many people are >p6 and haven't got one, ever? Pretty ridiculous. Even for those of us who live to hunt and pay attention to these things, it's a once or twice in a lifetime proposition.

Lots of blame to go around: outfitters, race-based unlimited harvest, chronic mismanagement (though that goes for most of AB). We need some new people in government who are determined to manage things better, along with a serious grassroots effort to improve habitat.

FYI: AFGA and ABHA have a fencing project for August 26/27

[elkhunter1234]

I 100% agree that the non-trophy hunt should be stopped now until the antelope numbers are 10 fold what they are now...

Jim...

[Full Curl Earl]

It's not that there hasn't been options to better the Antelopes prescence here, its just that Hunters input as stake holders never gets an ear. We're just not being a squeaky enough wheel. Our Bio's wiped out a moose population to starve out wolves, so they wouldn't eat Caribou! If I was a sarving wolf that hadn't received the memo that Caribou were not to be eaten, I'd eat caribou. This is what were dealing with. I would donate $500 a year to a legal fund that advocates for hunters in Alberta, that would challenge items just like the Antelope issue. Forcing Bios to prove their work valid through their peers, similar to South of the boarder. I agree with most, stop the shooting of females in species with low numbers.

[walking buffalo]

While I suspect the actions stated in my earlier post will not be enacted on by choice, I was not joking that these are the answers to the Pronghorn's success.

Who all that has posted here has carefully read the Alberta Pronghorn Management Plan?

https://archive.org/stream/managemen...ge/12/mode/2up


With the knowledge available within this document from many of our peers and predecessors, one can grasp that licenced hunting mortality based on current management principals is Not the issue at hand in this discussion.

The current Non-trophy harvest is irrelevant in the population's growth or demise.

Habitat, Habitat and Nature are the deciding factors effecting the Pronghorn population.


In nearly eight years at AO, I don't think I have ever disagreed with a post from Elk1234, until now.

To those that are opposed to the Doe harvest, what is our current Pronghorn population? What is the yearly percentage of females being killed by hunters?
What is the historical high population over the last 100 years? Is it even possible that we could or have 10 times as many Pronghorns?


If you guys really want to help Pronghorns, then lobby to save native grasslands and Sagebrush. Help replace or eliminate fencing barriers. Reduce industrial activity including intensive agriculture and livestock production in core summer and winter grounds. Shoot a truckload of dogs.

And then pray for a mild winter, support global warming.

One bad winter and the Pronghorns will be reduced to a fraction of any desired high population. That is just the way it is.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Our Bio's wiped out a moose population to starve out wolves, so they wouldn't eat Caribou!

Off topic here but back in the late 1800's - early 1900's the caribou were wiped out in NB and Nova Scotia. Wolves were pretty much extinct then and have been ever since so they were not a factor in their decline. They never knew why until too late when they found out it was the whitetail deer that had moved in in high numbers at around the same time had transmitted the brain worm parasite to the caribou and they died off completely from a healthy population to none within a couple decades. The only surviving caribou herds east of the St. Lawrence are in the Gaspe Peninsula where there are very few whitetails and Newfoundland where there are no whitetails. It seems to me that Caribou here also seemed to start disappearing around the same time whitetails started moving heavily into traditional woodland caribou areas in Alberta. Has the gov't here looked into any possible connections? Same things happening in BC as the whitetails have moved higher into the mountains in southern BC the Caribou there are also in trouble. I dunno but it seems too much of a coincidence and should be looked into.