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  #61  
Old 04-08-2010, 11:26 PM
Rackmastr Rackmastr is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Justin, I'm not sure you totally appreciate the fuction and performance of a bullet. While a rapidly expanding bullet with minimal penetration may indeed dump a lot of kenetic energy in an animal, the would channel is short and the energy limited to one specific area, as in your example of a punch in the eye. Depending where that energy is dumped, it may indeed disrupt organs but it may also be a temporary disruption. We've all seen animals drop hard from the initial energy dump and then get up and run away apparently unscathed. A deep penetrating bullet that also expands well, dumps energy along the complete length of the wound channel, creating a far more effective use of that kenetic energy, even if all of it is not displaced within the animal. It's this long wound channel and the damage associated with it that makes the TSX and other deep penetrating bullets so effective.

Where you really start to realize the importance of this deep penetration is with larger game like moose or African game. They can soak up a lot of kenetic energy dumped in one location but quickly succuumb to a long wound channel with a wide path of energy dump. Just because a bullet passes through does not mean it doesn't use most of it's energy. Bullets like the TSX experience very rapid expansion at high speed and are designed to use energy and penetrate well over a very wide range of velocity. Most people are shocked to learn that very close range high velocity shots with a TSX typically have far less penetration than mid range shots.

While your punch in the eye may knock someone down....don't coun't on it keeping them down...

Bergers too are a very effective bullet but not for the reasons you are expressing here.
Good post here....
  #62  
Old 04-09-2010, 06:29 AM
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i was going to some 175 gr aframes, chrony'ed at 2700. my problem is a feeding issue in my parker hale, with the blunt faced bullets, tipped no problem. also looking for a little more velocity, actual target shooting shows a 12'' drop at 300. lee
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  #63  
Old 04-09-2010, 08:55 AM
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here are some nosler bullets that performed well.[IMG][/IMG]this is second pic they are from left to right 160gr nosler part, 160 Accu bond,160gr Accubond. All recovered from moose.
  #64  
Old 04-09-2010, 08:57 AM
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Less the bickering, there is some good points here as well as some bad, and I’m sure 100 years of accumulated experience hunting various game. Now we all have different opinions, as we all prefer various calibers, cartridges, bullets and weights for hunting different game at different distance under various and might I say dynamic conditions. That being said, may I throw my two cents in…

A lot has been done to research the performance of wound ballistics, and many fine bullets have been developed. The science vs. testimonials… all things to weigh when making your decision. That’s it, your decision. Your most powerful weapon is education, and using an appropriate bullet to suit your particular needs. An all around best bang for your buck piece of lead (or copper) to punch a hole in something… sure it exists, the perfect one for every condition, doesn’t.

Research research research! There have been numbers here, but no scientific evidence to reference. I know you guys have all taken game, I don’t doubt that… who is ethical and who is not, isn’t for me to judge. The basics of killing a critter of any description comes down to ceasing its brain function. Now, you can do that by a direct hit to the Central Nervous System, or you can do it by devastation and bleed out depriving blood to the central nervous system. You can make a long wound channel and pop both lungs and an aorta, or hope for hydrostatic shock and some gut soup from a fragmentation. All in all they both get the job done.

There are several good folks from hunters, paper punchers to sniping… Civilian, military, and medical… factual research, eye witness accounts and hypothesise... The more you read the more you identify your craft, the more you can weed out the nonsense and misinformation. Those of you who have your reasons, should try to express them… debate is beneficial if done in a civilized manner. Remember some of us are newer than others, and in time will learn and as I noticed here are willing to admit and reconsider their input.

This forum is filled with young and old, from far and near… it’s a collective of many disciplines and experiences. Take it for what you will, and by the way I used the 30 06 hornady light mag in 165 interlock this year for my white tail rifle hunt, even though I loaded accubonds, and now have the ballistic tips… which I’m going to use up and try the ttsx as I’m curious to the higher BC and weight retention for long range in the 300wsm tikka varmint I’m drooling over.
  #65  
Old 04-09-2010, 09:03 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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My favorite bullet for big game is the TTSX,but I prefer the Accubond over the Partition,because they are more accurate in my rifles.
  #66  
Old 04-09-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
I think they are unethical. I will explain(I am useing easy numbers no actual) Say you shoot a 180 grain barns it has 1500 lbs of energy when it hits a dear but blows right through how much energy is put in to the animal? 5-100lbs of energy. As fo the same bullet but a berger goes in 3"
and blows up.That deer or what ever you shot just got 1500lbs of energy.I will bet it is dead on impact.Your barnes unless through the sholders just make a cut but not all the internal damadge as the other so it is not dieing for some time.That is why I dont like copper bullets and bonded bullets the math and the use of then prove it all to well.I hope this make my point a little more clear.
I took a very large body white tail buck last year, clean through the chest never touched a bone, with a 25-06 115gr. barnes tsx. It dropped on the spot, with plenty of damage when I opened him up.

Also if you check out any outfitters web sites for animals like walrus, cape buffalo, eland, or anything that requires alot of penetration, surface area, and weight retention the barnes always come up in the recomended ammunition column.
  #67  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:25 AM
elkhunter69 elkhunter69 is offline
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Sorry but i'm a Grandslam guy.
  #68  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:30 AM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by ditch donkey View Post
I took a very large body white tail buck last year, clean through the chest never touched a bone, with a 25-06 115gr. barnes tsx. It dropped on the spot, with plenty of damage when I opened him up.

Also if you check out any outfitters web sites for animals like walrus, cape buffalo, eland, or anything that requires alot of penetration, surface area, and weight retention the barnes always come up in the recomended ammunition column.
THANKS!!!!! read on before you jump to conclusions(I retracted that comment).You use what ued want and I will do the same. I am finished with this thread.
  #69  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ditch donkey View Post
I took a very large body white tail buck last year, clean through the chest never touched a bone, with a 25-06 115gr. barnes tsx. It dropped on the spot, with plenty of damage when I opened him up.

Also if you check out any outfitters web sites for animals like walrus, cape buffalo, eland, or anything that requires alot of penetration, surface area, and weight retention the barnes always come up in the recomended ammunition column.
Ya, the whole energy dump concept is a bit of a myth and the more that the effects of bullets are studied, the more we realize how they kill. I do find it fiunny that Justin is arguing that a shallow penetrating bullet is more effective when he likes the Berger. The Berger is actually designed for deep penetration at long ranges, creating a wide temporary wound channel. It is the fragmentation (loss of mass) that prevents the Berger from passing right through in many cases but as with all bullets, it's the hole that kills and in the case of the Berger, the secondary damage caused by the fragmentation. After watching the video, I see Justin was just parroting what he saw in the video about ethics. The thing he forgot was to add the phrase long-range.

The Berger is effective at long range because it retains velocity well because of its high BC. It quite simply strikes with more velocity, indeed making it a great long-range choice. That hardly makes other bullets unethical within their performance envelope though.

Energy on its own rarely kills but a hole through vital blood supply or organ always does. Deep penetrating bullets make deep holes and the long wound channel allows for more widely spread area of shock...basically a one-two punch. Just because a bullet doest stop dead inside of an animal does not mean there is not considerable temporary shock to surrounding tissue. That's what deep penetrating bullets do. Trying to meaasure energy dump and equate it to killing power just doesn't work. There is far more going on along the wound channel than a simple energy dump.
  #70  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:04 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Bullets kill by creating a wound channel through the vitals that causes massive hemorrhaging.The volume of the wound channel through the vitals is the important factor.A bullet that leaves a short wide wound channel won't kill any better than one that leaves a longer narrower wound channel,if the wound channel volume in the vitals is the same.

Bullets such as the TTSX and TSX don't expand quite as quickly as a Ballistic Tip,but they usually leave a longer wound channel,even though it may be smaller in diameter.


Quote:
They do nt start to exspand till it goes throgh a min of 3-5"
As for bullets that supposedly don't expand at all until they have passed through a few inches of tissue,and then suddenly expand violently in the vitals,it just doesn't happen that way.There is no magic bullet that passes through the hide and ribs or shoulders,without any expansion,then suddenly goes off like a bomb when it reaches the vitals.All bullets will start to expand on first contact with the animal,but it is the rate of expansion that varies from bullet to bullet.You can read all of the advertising you like,and look at videos on a manufacturers site,but I will continue to judge bullets by the results on game that I have seen for myself.I have killed dozens of big game animals with Partitions and Ballistic tips,and on average Ballistic tips do provide more tissue damage and quicker kills,but recently ,we have taken a fair number of big game animals with the TSX,TTSX,and MRX,and the results were very impressive.They provide very good expansion with very good penetration,and in my opinion are just as effective as the Nosler bullets on lung shots,but they provide better penetration if they hit large bone.For that reason,I know hunt big game using only the TTSX bullet.
  #71  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:11 AM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Ya, the whole energy dump concept is a bit of a myth and the more that the effects of bullets are studied, the more we realize how they kill. I do find it fiunny that Justin is arguing that a shallow penetrating bullet is more effective when he likes the Berger. The Berger is actually designed for deep penetration at long ranges, creating a wide temporary wound channel. It is the fragmentation (loss of mass) that prevents the Berger from passing right through in many cases but as with all bullets, it's the hole that kills and in the case of the Berger, the secondary damage caused by the fragmentation. After watching the video, I see Justin was just parroting what he saw in the video about ethics. The thing he forgot was to add the phrase long-range.

The Berger is effective at long range because it retains velocity well because of its high BC. It quite simply strikes with more velocity, indeed making it a great long-range choice. That hardly makes other bullets unethical within their performance envelope though.

Energy on its own rarely kills but a hole through vital blood supply or organ always does. Deep penetrating bullets make deep holes and the long wound channel allows for more widely spread area of shock...basically a one-two punch. Just because a bullet doest stop dead inside of an animal does not mean there is not considerable temporary shock to surrounding tissue. That's what deep penetrating bullets do. Trying to meaasure energy dump and equate it to killing power just doesn't work. There is far more going on along the wound channel than a simple energy dump.
Hey smart guy Just cause you rite stories dont come on here and flap your gums. I never said anything about shallowpenetrating bullet. Every one i have shot has made it to the otherside of the animal but stops at the hide.So why do they all fall do and not get up then??? I am sick of you and rich with I KNOW EVERYTHING attitude.Go do your show so I can laugh at you two some more.or even better go write a knovel off all yo know so I can use it to start my next fire.
  #72  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:12 AM
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As for bullets that supposedly don't expand at all until they have passed through a few inches of tissue,and then suddenly expand violently in the vitals,it just doesn't happen that way.There is no magic bullet that passes through the hide and ribs or shoulders,without any expansion,then suddenly goes off like a bomb when it reaches the vitals.
Yes and no. The Berger is designed with a very thick jacket in the nose to aid in delaying expansion and once expansion begins, they fragment very quickly. Obviously, velocity plays a huge role in when expansion begins and how rapid it is but the design of the Berger is to provide initial penetration with minimal expansion and then very violent expansion after that. While in theory the energy dump sounds impressive, the fact that the bullet is rapidly shedding weight does limit the energy the deeper it penetrates where bullets like the TSX retain weight well and expand well, offering an impressive temporary wound channel without fragmentation.
  #73  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:25 AM
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So why do they all fall do and not get up then???
Because you killed them?

The Berger is a very effective bullet.....just not for the reasons you think. I appreciate the fact you watched the video on the Berger website and are parroting much of their advertising hype which when taken in context is basically true...I'm just not certain you understand the total context. The Berger creates a wide wound channel because of the fragmentation and it creates a pear shaped temporary wound channel because of its rapid initial expansion and fragmentation. That doesn't make it any more deadly but for most North American game, it is effective. Whether a bullet hangs on the far hide or passes through is really no measure of its effectiveness. It's what it's doing as its passing through that matters.

The Berger shines at long range because of the velocity it retains.
  #74  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:26 AM
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Hey smart guy Just cause you rite stories dont come on here and flap your gums. I never said anything about shallowpenetrating bullet. Every one i have shot has made it to the otherside of the animal but stops at the hide.So why do they all fall do and not get up then??? I am sick of you and rich with I KNOW EVERYTHING attitude.Go do your show so I can laugh at you two some more.or even better go write a knovel off all yo know so I can use it to start my next fire.
Justin, you said you're done with this thread! Leave it be. I think maybe how you expressed your beliefs was a little confusing to the rest of us. And we jumped on you. Let's not make this personal...
  #75  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:31 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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The Berger is designed with a very thick jacket in the nose to aid in delaying expansion and once expansion begins, they fragment very quickly. Obviously, velocity plays a huge role in when expansion begins and how rapid it is but the design of the Berger is to provide initial penetration with minimal expansion and then very violent expansion after that.
The rate of expansion often changes as the bullet penetrates,but the actual expansion begins the instant the bullet strikes a media with enough resistance to initiate expansion.The thick jacket in the nose of a Berger bullet does not totally delay expansion,rather it controls the rate of expansion.The result is that the bullet initially expands quite slowly,then the rate of expansion increases dramatically as the nose opens up.The bullet may not expand rapidly upon first contact,but it is still expanding.
  #76  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
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The rate of expansion often changes as the bullet penetrates,but the actual expansion begins the instant the bullet strikes a media with enough resistance to initiate expansion.The thick jacket in the nose of a Berger bullet does not totally delay expansion,rather it controls the rate of expansion.The result is that the bullet initially expands quite slowly,then the rate of expansion increases dramatically as the nose opens up.The bullet may not expand rapidly upon first contact,but it is still expanding.
Yup.
  #77  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:36 AM
noneck180 noneck180 is offline
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who gives a .... about expansion , delayed .... this and that,, they kill and damb fast,, take a look at a 180gr Berger and tell me if you would like to get hit with it? I sures the hell don't.. give it a break already.
  #78  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:40 AM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Justin, you said you're done with this thread! Leave it be. I think maybe how you expressed your beliefs was a little confusing to the rest of us. And we jumped on you. Let's not make this personal...
Others are makeing it personal that is why I am back.



I did not mimick anything TJ That is what the internals proved when I opened up all animals.And the rest of mty theory is based on science.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:44 AM
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who gives a .... about expansion , delayed .... this and that,, they kill and damb fast,, take a look at a 180gr Berger and tell me if you would like to get hit with it? I sures the hell don't.. give it a break already.
I think it's important to understand the performance of any bullet you use so you can use it effectively and within its performance envelope. I'm not sure your analogy of looking at bullet and questioning whether I'd want to be hit by it is the best criteria for selecting a bullet. I cant think of one I want to be hit by. Certain bullets perform better than others under certain conditions and it's important to understand that performance and a bullet's performance envelope. Maybe it doesn't matter to you but it does matter to a large number of hunters......
  #80  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:46 AM
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Justin, you said you're done with this thread! Leave it be. I think maybe how you expressed your beliefs was a little confusing to the rest of us. And we jumped on you. Let's not make this personal...
x2-- Use what shoots in your particular rifle and what you feel confident in, it is by nature of the beast very subjective to any one persons opinion. I know some old timers that reload only seirra's, some guys are PO'd that the hot-cor from speer is being dis-continued, I like noslers all have shot well in my rifles and get the job done. If bergers work use em, if a guy prefers the tsx that's thier poragitive. I hunt with what works for me and what's worked for the people I hunt with, and I assume that's what most people do as well.
  #81  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:47 AM
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Others are makeing it personal that is why I am back.



I did not mimick anything TJ That is what the internals proved when I opened up all animals.And the rest of mty theory is based on science.
I'd be very interested in seeing your science as it contradicts pretty well everything I've read on terminal bullet performance. I'm not saying you are using a bad bullet or that it doesn't kill or hang up on the far hide, I just don't think you fully understand the dynamics of a bullet passing through an animal but I'd be keen to read the science you are basing your theory on.

Use what shoots and performs well and in North America, bullet choice likely makes very little difference but when you start shooting very large game or extreme ranges, understanding terminal performance is very important.
  #82  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:50 AM
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Just so I have this clear. You are stating that you have more experience with Barnes bullets than I. Is this correct?
No what i'm getting at is that your a "Know-It-All"!!!! when it comes to Firearms and reloading. Later Charlie.
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  #83  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:51 AM
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Barnes.... Gotta love em!!!



  #84  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:51 AM
noneck180 noneck180 is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I think it's important to understand the performance of any bullet you use so you can use it effectively and within its performance envelope. I'm not sure your analogy of looking at bullet and questioning whether I'd want to be hit by it is the best criteria for selecting a bullet. I cant think of one I want to be hit by. Certain bullets perform better than others under certain conditions and it's important to understand that performance and a bullet's performance envelope. Maybe it doesn't matter to you but it does matter to a large number of hunters......
Dead is dead.. and I shoot my guns enough, because I am not using bullets that cost a $1 a piece like most of you "ethical hunters" and shoot once a month, maybe?? then spend the rest of your time trying to tell other hunters a bunch of bull... that doesn't matter.

BTW SH have you shot an animal with a Berger, or just using your science degree??
  #85  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:59 AM
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Back to original topic though. I had started hunting with the Nosler Partitions and they worked well. I think the accubond offers every bit as good of performance, but with better BC and a protected poly tip.
Shot a bunch of critters with the accubond now and not one had bad performance results.
Both are ethical!!!

Moose shoulder question:
I put a 225 gr through a moose shoulder at 375 yds and it stopped on the hide offside. Love em. He went 5 ft' down!
  #86  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by noneck180 View Post
Dead is dead.. and I shoot my guns enough, because I am not using bullets that cost a $1 a piece like most of you "ethical hunters" and shoot once a month, maybe?? then spend the rest of your time trying to tell other hunters a bunch of bull... that doesn't matter.

BTW SH have you shot an animal with a Berger, or just using your science degree??
LOL...I think only one person brought up ethics....

What does it matter whether I've killed with a Berger or not. As I've said, they are a very effective hunting bullet but whether I've killed with one or not does not change their terminal performance. They perform how they do because of their construction. It's pretty simple physics. I'm actually quite a fan of the Bergers and yes, I have killed with them. I've also killed with a several dozen other bullets and they all are designed to perform differently and my experience with them doesn't change that......I just like to understand that bullet performance and choose a bullet well suited to my needs at that time.

The only reason I added what I know as a few people didn't seem to grasp that terminal performance and why the TSX was such an effective bullet....just as the Berger is. It's okay to like more than one brand.....

Last edited by sheephunter; 04-09-2010 at 12:05 PM.
  #87  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Bullets kill by creating a wound channel through the vitals that causes massive hemorrhaging.The volume of the wound channel through the vitals is the important factor.A bullet that leaves a short wide wound channel won't kill any better than one that leaves a longer narrower wound channel,if the wound channel volume in the vitals is the same.

Bullets such as the TTSX and TSX don't expand quite as quickly as a Ballistic Tip,but they usually leave a longer wound channel,even though it may be smaller in diameter.




As for bullets that supposedly don't expand at all until they have passed through a few inches of tissue,and then suddenly expand violently in the vitals,it just doesn't happen that way.There is no magic bullet that passes through the hide and ribs or shoulders,without any expansion,then suddenly goes off like a bomb when it reaches the vitals.All bullets will start to expand on first contact with the animal,but it is the rate of expansion that varies from bullet to bullet.You can read all of the advertising you like,and look at videos on a manufacturers site,but I will continue to judge bullets by the results on game that I have seen for myself.I have killed dozens of big game animals with Partitions and Ballistic tips,and on average Ballistic tips do provide more tissue damage and quicker kills,but recently ,we have taken a fair number of big game animals with the TSX,TTSX,and MRX,and the results were very impressive.They provide very good expansion with very good penetration,and in my opinion are just as effective as the Nosler bullets on lung shots,but they provide better penetration if they hit large bone.For that reason,I know hunt big game using only the TTSX bullet.


You a Killer ???? Elk Hunter?
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:06 PM
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"Killed with several dozen bullets" so at least 24 different types.. boy I would love to see you write them out in another thread...
  #89  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:11 PM
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"Killed with several dozen bullets" so at least 24 different types.. boy I would love to see you write them out in another thread...
I can think of at least 8 muzzleloader bullets I've killed with so not a big stretch to think there are 16 more in centrefires. There could be more, I'd need to sit down and actually make a list

It's amazing when you take the blinders off how many bullets there are actually out there. I've enjoyed playing with a lot of different ones. Some I've been impressed with, some I haven't..... I'm sure there are lots of guys on this board that have killed with an equal number or more. Bullet performance has long been a passion of mine.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
noneck180 noneck180 is offline
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My passion is shooting tiny little groups all year long, then going out in the spring and whacking gophers, getting some meat in the fall, and knocking down some Yotes in the winter, all with Berger Bullets.

Anyways back to the OP,, I have shot game with both Partions and Accubonds, all bang flo,ps they just cost too much to shoot paper with.

Last edited by noneck180; 04-09-2010 at 12:26 PM.
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