Paper patch cast loading

[obsessed1]

Hoping someone here might have some experience with this.
I'm loading cast bullets in my marlin 336 30-30.( micro grooved)
My slugged bore is .308
The bullet I'm using is a 168gr sized at .309
Recovered bullets show uneven rifling marks and accuracy is only so so. No keyholing or leading issues just not very accurate and rifling marks indicate bullet entering lead slightly tipped.
As I already have a good supply of these bullets I am going to paper patch to expand them to .310-.311,or .312 to find where accuracy is optimum..

Here is my main question.
When sizing for these larger diameter bullets do I need to run a larger expander through the neck? Like say a 303 brit expander?
I already bell my case mouth for best seating just wondering if I need to open the neck up a bit or just stuff the bullet in?
Any experience?

[catnthehat]

with 30/30 brass being so thin, it is best to go very slow, but I'm sure you already know that.
I would use them as .309 first and see what happens.
Cat

[oldgutpile]

Any particular reason for going with paper patched as opposed to gas checks or alox?
I reload with paper patch on a couple of rounds; 577/500 no.2, and 450 3/14". Not an expert by any means, just talking from experience.
I really only found patching advantageous while using black powder or duplex loads that would properly bump up the cast bullet. I use duplex loads in the 577/500 and the patched bullets really shine for that purpose. In the 450, I eventually went to jacketed bullets and a low pressure load of smokeless.
Never heard of manually bumping up the diameter, although it does make sense in that it would accomplish the same thing as black powder. I would be concerned about the jump of the bullet to the lands, and resulting pressures, so seating depth might be paramount.

[obsessed1]

Certainly some of you guys have much more experience in this realm of handloading than do so I'm interested in your responses.

My reasons are as follows
I came into a good amount of these bullets ( over 600)
And I'd like to try to get the best results I can with them.
They are hard cast FB no GC with two lube bands. ( bullets came lubbed)
My rifle has a micro grooved barrel..from my reading MG barrels shoot best with bullets .002 over groove dimension.
My barrel slugged to .308 these bullets are sized at .309. I have perfect recovered bullets that show the rifling engaging higher and deeper on one side of the bullet than the other also accuracy at 50 yds is about 2-3" whereas typical handloads w jacketed bullets land overtop of each other at 50 yds.
After doing a bit of reading on cast and specifically cast sizing for fitting your bore I have read about people paper patching to " up size" thier slightly undersized cast bullets to better seal the bore.
I thought I'd try up sizing my bullets to .310, or even .311 which is what many castors say shoot the gest in thier micro grooved guns.
My choice for the patch is teflon tape. From my study I read it works wonderfully and even acts as an extra lube. By wrapping one wrap and rolling the bullet I get .0005 2 full wraps gets me .001 so I can play with thickness of my patch to " tighten" the bullet to bore fit in Hope's of getting a bit better seal/ accuracy out of these bullets.
The powder loads I'll be playing with are light loads using pistol powder so I will work loads up safely to avoid pressure spikes..
My biggest concern is pushing a .310 or .311 sized bullet into the 30-30s case neck.
I know many CAS and silhouette shooters using 30-30 and cast use bullet up to .311 dia I just cant seem to find info on how they stuff them into the 30-30 case neck.
Belling is simply done and I use a taper die on all cast bullet brass before loading to aid the seating process...

Thanks for sharing your experience

[catnthehat]

With Micro grooves, from what I have learned over thhe yyearrs, youu need a very hard bullet to make it work, annd a few thoud=sands over for sure.
However, since you are using a GG bullet I would stay away from paper patching, my paper patch bullets for my 40/65 are slicks ( no grooves) and with a paper patch that is .001 thick, two wraps gives me .004 thick bullet.
What I would do is remove the lubes and powder coat them.
Cat

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

With Micro grooves, from what I have learned over thhe yyearrs, youu need a very hard bullet to make it work, annd a few thoud=sands over for sure.
However, since you are using a GG bullet I would stay away from paper patching, my paper patch bullets for my 40/65 are slicks ( no grooves) and with a paper patch that is .001 thick, two wraps gives me .004 thick bullet.
What I would do is remove the lubes and powder coat them.
Cat

Interesting. So the bullets I have are around 22-23 BHN by my testing so I thought they would be perfect candidate for the micro groove ( as it usually does need a hard cast)
What is the procedure for removing the lube( red stuff in this case) from the grooves?
And how do you powder coat them?.....I guess I could watch a you tube....lol

I played around with patching using the teflon tape and can easily size up in very small increments by rolling the patches bullet between a flap peice of wood and the bench top after placing the wrap.

This process is so interesting to me and I love tinkering with different ideas/ processes.

Thanks for the input Cat

[Boogerfart]

I can PC a test batch for you if you'd like, its a easy way to slightly increase diameter. In the past I've used acetone to remove lube, it works good most of the time, some lubes are tougher.
I've experimented using rolling papers to "patch up" 255gr .454 bullets for the 45 Colt to .460 to fit a 45-70, it did work well but was very time consuming. Keeps you shooting in a pinch though.
Send me a pm if you'd like to try some PC'ed bullets, I need a excuse to spend more time in the garage...

[Pioneer2]

You are wrapping the bullets in the right direction so the rifling tightens as it exits not shredding.

[ken1989]

I thought I would never see a post on paper patching here! Maybe someone can help my with an old girl I have an original Sharps 1874 deluxe in 44-77, paper patch chamber, .452 bore/.459 groove, perfect bore. I have the proper brass and dies. I have shot black powder loads using gg bullets and my paper patched gg bullets - accuracy should be much better but my old eyes do not help. I had a local machinist try make me a slick (no grease groove) mould from a old gg mould but he destroyed the mould. Would be nice to get some proper bullets and learn how to paper patch properly.

[oldgutpile]

Lots of valuable information in Paul Mathew's book "The Paper Jacket" if you can find one. Paper patching helps two things: preventing leading of the the barrel, and the sealing of the bullet to the grooves. The black powder bumps up the sizing to do the rest. Another excellent read (IF you can find one and have deep pockets) is by Graeme Wright- "shooting the double rifle". Graeme has done extensive testing on formulating "duplex" loads with a smokeless charge next to the primer, over a load of black. The best of both worlds. Better ignition to the black powder charge and keeps the black powder fowling incredibly low. I can shoot 10-15 rounds out of my gun without fowling pressures becoming an issue. Straight black powder, I would want to clean every couple rounds.
I have tried different thickness of paper, right down to using old dress making patterns. (try to explain having those in your reloading cabinet!)
I found that for my 577/500 (.512) just a double wrap of graph paper, lube it up with a home-made mix of bee's wax and vaseline, and run the patched bullet through a sizing die to really seal it all together.

[obsessed1]

Ok so after studying up on paper patching vs P.C bullets I still really want to try this patching thing...maybe it my inquisitive nature or maybe I'm crazy...here are some pics of my slug in the calipers, a lubbed sized hard cast as they came from the caster, and my paper patched rounds sized up to .310 . As stated my paper I used is actually white teflon tape. I did two good tight wraps then rolled it between two hard flat surfaces. Think I'm going to try loading these just to see how it goes..
Last pic is a fired hard cast un modified bullet, my lead sinker used as my barrel slug, an un fired un modified bullet, and a few patched bullets that measure .310.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Boogerfart]

I say go for it, worst case Ontario you'll have to clean some Teflon out of your barrel. I've never tried Teflon myself but a friend of mine did, he said it worked but could be messy.

[obsessed1]

Update.
Finally decided to trial a few things for the old 30-30

First I broke out the lee load all (30-30) i have had on my shelf for ages and never used....
The load all worked great.
My first order of business was to figure out how to bell my case mouth to accept the cast bullets...no problem a pair of needle nose pliers worked fantastic....slight pressure and a quick turn opened up the backs just beautifully to accept the lead projectiles without any cutting.
I loaded 10 rounds with the sized .309 hardcast and 10 of the "paper" patched 3.11 bullets.
Patching was simple and easy three full wraps of teflon tape then clean cut with pocket knife scissors. Then roll between two hard flat surfaces....table top and Lee loader case lid and all ten measured out between . 3108 and .3113.
All bullets were seated over 8.5 gr of red dot.

I shot both test samples at 50 yds due to iron sights off a homemade set if quad pod sticks so stability was really good.

My 10round group of 309 cast landed in a 3" group with 2 rounds opening it up from 1.5 into the three " group

My 10 round group with " patched" 311 cast bullets landed in a 1.25" group.

None of my patched bullets fouled the barrel or left strings of teflon or even seemed to unravel at the muzzle ( no floating strands of teflon flying around lol)

To me the test was conclusive and was successful in making a slightly undersized bullet work.

It was also neat to be able to "whack" loads together ( even flair(bell) case mouths for cast bullets) with a set of tools that will fit in my back pocket....kinda neat

[Boogerfart]

That's awesome!! I may have to try that with a old Enfield...
The Lee Loaders are great, I bought one in 45Colt years ago that got me into reloading.

[catnthehat]

Very cool, glad it worked out!
I used Teflon for patching years ago in a 577/450 Martini and got some interesting responses from some of the members on Canadian Gun Nutz !
It did work, though.
Cat