4570

[1100winger]

I have been using the Reveloution ammunition, shoots well - have not had a chance to drop any game with it yet. I am also curious about paper patched bullets. Montana bullets has a 500 gr PP bullet. I'm thinking that it would make a great subsonic round for the less than 100 yard shots.
Has anyone tried the Montana pills?

[W921]

Originally Posted by 1100winger

I have been using the Reveloution ammunition, shoots well - have not had a chance to drop any game with it yet. I am also curious about paper patched bullets. Montana bullets has a 500 gr PP bullet. I'm thinking that it would make a great subsonic round for the less than 100 yard shots.
Has anyone tried the Montana pills?

I dont know about Revolution or Montana bullets but years ago I got a 45/70 made at Big Timber MT.
They talked me into getting it throated for paper patch bullets.
Bought moulds and cotton paper, wasted a bunch of time with black and smokeless powders.
I could not get good results. Ended up rechambering into 45/90 to get rid of the paper patch throat. One of the employees at the gun makers place told me that the whole paper patch idea was a bust and they where rebarreling other people's rifles as well and not offering the throated rifles anymore.

[W921]

I'm just trying to remember but I think the only way I could get it to work was to clean and lube the barrel between shots.
Trying to wrap those bullets by hand was hard. I ended up getting my wife to do it. She has small hands.

[1100winger]

Supply pre-patched so that helps, I hadn't thought or investigated the throating. I experimented years ago with a 458 Win Ruger 1 iirc. Achieved hunting accuracy at 100 yards. Never did hunt with it though.
Sometimes you just have to satisfy the itch.

[W921]

I went on their web site. The one thing they are doing is lubing the patch just before chambering. I never did this. That might make a difference.
That PP chambering had most of the bullet seated out of the case. You could seat the bullet in the throat first with a special tool and then chamber your black powder cartridge later behind it or you would load the bullet into the case like normal.
With the PP chambering I had to much case capacity for reduced smokeless powder loads with the powders I was using. Just couldn't get much accuracy.
Those PP bullets are a fragile thing if your going to pack them around hunting.

[jungleboy]

Consider powder coating your lead bullets , easy to do and good accuracy without the leading.

If you want to try them I have some 350 gr cast that are powder coated and sized already. I will give you some to play with.

[1100winger]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Consider powder coating your lead bullets , easy to do and good accuracy without the leading.

If you want to try them I have some 350 gr cast that are powder coated and sized already. I will give you some to play with.

Powder coating also intrigues me and may be the route taken. My 1886 may not be the right firearm to experiment with. Thanks for the offer, I still have lots of hard alloy lead and clean babbit. I'd be happy to trade.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by 1100winger

Powder coating also intrigues me and may be the route taken. My 1886 may not be the right firearm to experiment with. Thanks for the offer, I still have lots of hard alloy lead and clean babbit. I'd be happy to trade.

I have shot powder coated out of my old Marlin guide gun and my current H&R handi rifle in 4570 without issue. I can give you a 15 or 20 slugs to try. The nice thing about PC is no leading in the barrel. I don’t load them that hot in a single shot .

[W921]

Years ago when I was playing around with this stuff. If you wanted more range with cast bullets you went with a heavier bullet. You didn't try to go faster because if you did you lost accuracy. Leading was part of it. If you got leading you where going to fast and losing accuracy. I didn't have a chronograph so I'm just guessing but it seemed it was always better not to go sonic.
My understanding was when you break the sonic level on the way up in speed you loose accuracy but if your bullet slows down again to sound barrier before it reached the target then you lost even more accuracy.
I used to have some express black powder guns in 40/90 and 45/120. A 40/65 or a 45/70 were way better or !more accurate.
So how fast can you accurately shoot a powder coated cast bullet? If your just getting up in that 1600 fps range I dont see the point.
For accuracy I mean 5 shot groups every time and counting all flyers.
Or is powder coating more about getting magnum power out off a revolver with cast bullets?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by W921

Years ago when I was playing around with this stuff. If you wanted more range with cast bullets you went with a heavier bullet. You didn't try to go faster because if you did you lost accuracy. Leading was part of it. If you got leading you where going to fast and losing accuracy. I didn't have a chronograph so I'm just guessing but it seemed it was always better not to go sonic.
My understanding was when you break the sonic level on the way up in speed you loose accuracy but if your bullet slows down again to sound barrier before it reached the target then you lost even more accuracy.
I used to have some express black powder guns in 40/90 and 45/120. A 40/65 or a 45/70 were way better or !more accurate.
So how fast can you accurately shoot a powder coated cast bullet? If your just getting up in that 1600 fps range I dont see the point.
For accuracy I mean 5 shot groups every time and counting all flyers.
Or is powder coating more about getting magnum power out off a revolver with cast bullets?

Subsonic is 1100 FPS and slower, are you sure your loads were going that slow? There are not very many revolvers that you can get 1600 fps out of but even in a rifle, there is quite a difference in trajectory between a 10 fps 405 bullet and one that starts out at 1600 FPS. I have never had any [problem with accuracy or leading shooting hard cast , 25 Brinell, to 1800 fps, even without gas checks or anything more than lube. Dead soft lead is usually good to about 1400 fps.

[45-70govt]

I used 325 grain leverevolutions out of my Marlin Guide Gun on my WT buck from last year. Hit at about 50 yards, no visible fragments that I could notice. clean pass through and leaked everything he had before he fell 10m away from where he was hit. Seemed to perform well.

[jungleboy]

For me it wasn’t about super velocity but more about not having to deal with bullet lube and potential leading. PC bullets are just like handling jacketed bullets.
That said, I have done a fair bit of online reading and from what I see velocity is not an issue. Some guys are powder coating 30 cal bullets for 303 Brit and others
It’s been a while since I loaded for my 4570 but as I recall it was something like 37 or 39 gr of 4198. Well below the suggested starting load. I don’t have a chrono so I have no idea what the velocity is but the book said at 45 gr powder+/- it should be in the 1550fps range. Mine would be under that but don’t know by how much

[W921]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Subsonic is 1100 FPS and slower, are you sure your loads were going that slow? There are not very many revolvers that you can get 1600 fps out of but even in a rifle, there is quite a difference in trajectory between a 10 fps 405 bullet and one that starts out at 1600 FPS. I have never had any [problem with accuracy or leading shooting hard cast , 25 Brinell, to 1800 fps, even without gas checks or anything more than lube. Dead soft lead is usually good to about 1400 fps.

I'm going from memory and my memory isn't the best. This was years ago and I used to keep a reloading scribbler with my records for each gun. When I sold a gun my records for that gun went with it.
I used straight wheel weights most of the time.
With pistols I'm sure I wasn't 1100 fps. The best loads with cast bullets was always a load that was light enough that I didn't get leading.
I'm remembering a 45/90 only having room for 60 or 65 grains of black powder. It depends on the bullet and how much of its weight is in the bore riding nose part.
I'm trying to remember for the 45/70 but I'm guessing 45 grains of ff with a 500 grain?
Powder was always trickled down a 3 foot drop tube.
I have no idea what the velocities would have been but I'm guessing the most accurate cast bullet loads were no more than 1100 fps.
My 30/06 cast 180 grain load is I think without checking 17 grains of sr4759 I know this is not a fast load . if I go faster with more powder then I start to get leading and accuracy drops off.
45/120 sucked and 40/90 had to much case capacity.
32/40 was a great little cast bullet gun but never loaded for speed.

[W921]

When I was doing this stuff there wasn't internet or I didn't have it. There wasn't reloading manuals for black powder to give you velocities for a given charge.