Pipeline Question

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by The Elkster

This really is a media driven issue 100%. Most people in BC support the PL and many first nations do too. But the media has decided to seek out any and all protesters and give them 90% of the air time in an attempt to foment unrest and create the illusion that far more disagree than polls would suggest. In their own opinion pieces they have also pushed all the negatives and risks of O&G over and over and over again without mentioning any of the positives that everyone in modern society enjoys. Its just a complete whitewashing of most of the facts and numbers and I hate to say it but it is in essence Fake News. Withholding facts to sell a extremely bias narrative is just as bad if not worse than outright lying.

As far as politicians go. They are largely controlled by the media as the media largely controls the message that gets out to the public. If the media wants to villify a politician for not supporting the ANTI stance they can easily sow the seeds of that politicians demise. Politicians act accordingly and so we have what we have today.

BS
This is government driven. Only a true west hating Liberal can tolerate the massive revenue shortfall and pretend that nothing is wrong.
Hippies will always protest. The news will always cover it. However the value lost due to lack of markets is only tolerable by those who will get their share regardless. Smiling all the way to the bank. With our money. The sum of which we don't understand how much we're really losing.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by barbless

Ok guess I don't know (as usual) should have searched further. Was told Pipe lines are all underground. Say what? Really? If so, then why? Would make more sense to be above to be inspected (visually). But I guess out of sight out of mind until the inevitable leak. Leave it above, minimal underground and if have to cross over it, do what they did for wildlife, built a bridge to go over. Banff National Park over or under pass for wildlife.

Don’t forget we have winter for 6 months of the year. When water or oil freezes it expands and breaks!

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Don’t forget we have winter for 6 months of the year. When water or oil freezes it expands and breaks!

hmm.. If only there were thousands of engineers that could spend time and figure out how to keep the temp of a pipeline constant or more importantly the product they are transporting constant..

oh wait.. we've been doing it for 50+ years now.

BTW, these engineers have figured out what temp allows the product to go through the pipeline most efficiently, as it's in their interest to move as much product as possible, as quickly as possible. Thick cold oil = slow moving.

Between Insulation, Heat tracing, lineheaters, amongst other things. For an inservice pipeline to freeze, many systems had to of failed which means there is alarms going off on a bunch of people's phones way before there's a chance for something to "happen".

[The Elkster]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

BS
This is government driven. Only a true west hating Liberal can tolerate the massive revenue shortfall and pretend that nothing is wrong.
Hippies will always protest. The news will always cover it. However the value lost due to lack of markets is only tolerable by those who will get their share regardless. Smiling all the way to the bank. With our money. The sum of which we don't understand how much we're really losing.

I'll leave you to your tinfoil hat...

I will say this though. The media cloaks themselves in this idea that they are above reproach and should be left alone and free of critique...journalistic integrity and all that. And yet even with all their "integrity" they continue to put out extremely bias stories and only give air time to one side of the story clearly with the intent of driving a specific narrative. And not to leave anyone out this includes both the right and left wing media. Its gotten to the point where someone who wants to gain an unbias measure of the situation has an impossible time doing so.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

hmm.. If only there were thousands of engineers that could spend time and figure out how to keep the temp of a pipeline constant or more importantly the product they are transporting constant..

oh wait.. we've been doing it for 50+ years now.

BTW, these engineers have figured out what temp allows the product to go through the pipeline most efficiently, as it's in their interest to move as much product as possible, as quickly as possible. Thick cold oil = slow moving.

Between Insulation, Heat tracing, lineheaters, amongst other things. For an inservice pipeline to freeze, many systems had to of failed which means there is alarms going off on a bunch of people's phones way before there's a chance for something to "happen".

A lot harder to regulate the correct flow temperature of the oil when the out side temperature can fluctuate 80 degrees in a afternoon.

Hundreds of thousands of miles of pipelines under your feet at this very moment could you image ion what the up roar would be if they were all above ground? and you think a few wind mills are an eyesore.

[243plus]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Don’t forget we have winter for 6 months of the year. When water or oil freezes it expands and breaks!

I wonder what magic TC has used in the past 60 years to address this?

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

A lot harder to regulate the correct flow temperature of the oil when the out side temperature can fluctuate 80 degrees in a afternoon.

80 degrees.. Holy.. Must be that global warming I'm hearing about. Fluctuations in the 30 degree range sure. But 80? unless you're American (F), not likely.

Hint.. It's all automated. And this is all accounted for. Ever wonder why there's expansion loops? Or why pipelines aren't a straight line from one end to the other (many factors here, but expansion is one)?

Hundreds of thousands of miles of pipelines under your feet at this very moment could you image ion what the up roar would be if they were all above ground? and you think a few wind mills are an eyesore

Oh for sure.. That's why most branch lines are underground. But we're talking about main transmission lines.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by barbless

Ok guess I don't know (as usual) should have searched further. Was told Pipe lines are all underground. Say what? Really? If so, then why? Would make more sense to be above to be inspected (visually). But I guess out of sight out of mind until the inevitable leak. Leave it above, minimal underground and if have to cross over it, do what they did for wildlife, built a bridge to go over. Banff National Park over or under pass for wildlife.

Glad you are getting up to speed with this.

[Sundog57]

Funny that this topic should come up
Very interesting article in the Globe and Mail
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...first-nations/

The Eagle Spirit Pipeline being case in point. There are a lot, potentially the majority, of FN groups out there who, no surprise,are just like the rest of us. They would like to have the opportunity to make a good living, to set an example for their kids that hard work pays off, to enjoy some of the better things in life.
The media and in particular the CBC do not hear or want to hear these folks. It does not fit with their particular stereotypical (read condescending/racist) belief of how FNs should behave.
The prancing clown feeds right into the stereotype as he bleats about FNs being keepers of the land and all that other BS (all the while holding them back from having any way to make a living)

Surprisingly perhaps, most FN folks I have spoken to don't see running around in the bush trying to poke a moose with a pointy stick to assure your family doesn't starve as the way they want to live in the 21st century .

[NCC]

I agree. I’ve lived near reserves for most of my live and I think most of the people that want to set the rules for FN people have never seen a reserve or spoken with a FN person that wasn’t a politician or protester.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Far less environmental issues with pipelines than rail.
In 2017 (last year stats available) there were over 1000 derailments in Canada (of course not all spilled oil). In the same year there were 70 pipeline spills.
The average spill volume per incident is 12000L for pipeline and 70000L for a rail spill.
Now consider that in 2012 30000 barrels a day were shipped by rail...and since the Transmountain stalled that has increased to 200000 barrel a day.
All this info is available from the Transportation Safety Board website...but never seems to be published my mainstream media.

100% Accurate, on Point.

Drop the Microphone and walk off stage ..... nothing left to be said.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

hmm.. If only there were thousands of engineers that could spend time and figure out how to keep the temp of a pipeline constant or more importantly the product they are transporting constant..

oh wait.. we've been doing it for 50+ years now.

BTW, these engineers have figured out what temp allows the product to go through the pipeline most efficiently, as it's in their interest to move as much product as possible, as quickly as possible. Thick cold oil = slow moving.

Between Insulation, Heat tracing, lineheaters, amongst other things. For an inservice pipeline to freeze, many systems had to of failed which means there is alarms going off on a bunch of people's phones way before there's a chance for something to "happen".

I'd say that underground, below frost line, with stable year round temperatures solve the "technical need" to mitigate something that mother nature does for far cheaper, more reliably compared to trying to regulate and maintain a temperate control on a vessel that large and extensive. One failure with this wonderfully engineered mitigation technology and you have a potential spill ............ why risk that when digging a hole solves an issue that doesn't need to be solved???

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by The Elkster

I'll leave you to your tinfoil hat...

I will say this though. The media cloaks themselves in this idea that they are above reproach and should be left alone and free of critique...journalistic integrity and all that. And yet even with all their "integrity" they continue to put out extremely bias stories and only give air time to one side of the story clearly with the intent of driving a specific narrative. And not to leave anyone out this includes both the right and left wing media. Its gotten to the point where someone who wants to gain an unbias measure of the situation has an impossible time doing so.

Fake news. It's the only reality.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by EZM

I'd say that underground, below frost line, with stable year round temperatures solve the "technical need" to mitigate something that mother nature does for far cheaper, more reliably compared to trying to regulate and maintain a temperate control on a vessel that large and extensive. One failure with this wonderfully engineered mitigation technology and you have a potential spill ............ why risk that when digging a hole solves an issue that doesn't need to be solved???

Except it's alot easier to see an issue (like a leak), when it's above ground and catch it right away vs a leak underground, could sometimes take years to find out about and/or it's already contaminated a ton of land. Vs an above ground pipe they can easily see it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Mothernature does a much better (and cheaper) job of it, but that is not the only factor).

[Habfan]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Except it's alot easier to see an issue (like a leak), when it's above ground and catch it right away vs a leak underground, could sometimes take years to find out about and/or it's already contaminated a ton of land. Vs an above ground pipe they can easily see it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Mothernature does a much better (and cheaper) job of it, but that is not the only factor).

A drop in pressure would set off alarms, spill would be located immediately !

[bat119]

Originally Posted by Habfan

A drop in pressure would set off alarms, spill would be located immediately !

The flowmeters would detect a shortage 100m2 going in 99m2 coming out would also trigger an alarm, a leak into river is also highly exaggerated 4500 km pipeline crosses 1 km of river the odds of a leak in that spot would be very low.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Except it's alot easier to see an issue (like a leak), when it's above ground and catch it right away vs a leak underground, could sometimes take years to find out about and/or it's already contaminated a ton of land. Vs an above ground pipe they can easily see it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Mothernature does a much better (and cheaper) job of it, but that is not the only factor).

You obviously are not aware of the instrumentation installed on the pipelines. The pressures and flows are monitored along the pipeline, and any kind of a rupture would be setting off alarms. They don't have to actually see a leak, to know that they have one.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You obviously are not aware of the instrumentation installed on the pipelines. The pressures and flows are monitored along the pipeline, and any kind of a rupture would be setting off alarms. They don't have to actually see a leak, to know that they have one.

Actually I am but didn't want to get into specifics as I only deal with small bore upstream stuff, 10" and smaller pipelines, so they do things differently in large bore.
At any rate, There can be minor variances from one PT to the next. Which is where the eyes on the ground are invaluable. A rupture is easy to detect , a leaky flange not so much. Yet a leaky flange left undetected could cause a large (by media's standard) spill.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by Habfan

A drop in pressure would set off alarms, spill would be located immediately !

Depends. See my other post. A small variance might not be detected or even setting off alarms. Yet still be a spill.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Actually I am but didn't want to get into specifics as I only deal with small bore upstream stuff, 10" and smaller pipelines, so they do things differently in large bore.
At any rate, There can be minor variances from one PT to the next. Which is where the eyes on the ground are invaluable. A rupture is easy to detect , a leaky flange not so much. Yet a leaky flange left undetected could cause a large (by media's standard) spill.

I am referring to larger lines, like the pipeline running South from Fort McMurray, where the instrumentation is very carefully calibrated and monitored.

[AndrewM]

So you guys think that a large transmission line that is insulated to the weather above ground will have a leak that is easily found? We have -40C weather here. Add in the wind and that’s a heck of a lot of heat loss. Viscosity is exponentially related to temperature so a few degrees is a lot of pressure loss. Most spills are caught very quick as grass dies very quick. Worse part of spills isn’t actually oil it’s the water. Heavy oil doesn’t absorb easily. Water does and is brutal to clean up and very expensive.
Then you got the issue of farmers going around miles of pipe. Issues when you build roads. Issues due to surface water as I doubt the lines will have berms the entire length.
Surface lines for long transmission lines sound good at first glance. Unfortunately they aren’t practical.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Depends. See my other post. A small variance might not be detected or even setting off alarms. Yet still be a spill.

Husky’s leak by Lloyd into the river is an example of this. Alarms and detection is only as good as the people monitoring the data.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by 243plus

I wonder what magic TC has used in the past 60 years to address this?

I was meaning all pipelines not just the big TC ones. Heat trace is only effective when it is working. Deadlegs are the worst lines to deal with.

[dmcbride]

Looks like nothing will be happening until after the next election.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fir...feds-1.4982807

Feds likely to hold on to pipeline past 2019 election, says Morneau

[Iskra]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Except it's alot easier to see an issue (like a leak), when it's above ground and catch it right away vs a leak underground, could sometimes take years to find out about and/or it's already contaminated a ton of land. Vs an above ground pipe they can easily see it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Mothernature does a much better (and cheaper) job of it, but that is not the only factor).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46929950
Much easier to see the leak.

[MrDave]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Except it's alot easier to see an issue (like a leak), when it's above ground and catch it right away vs a leak underground, could sometimes take years to find out about and/or it's already contaminated a ton of land. Vs an above ground pipe they can easily see it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Mothernature does a much better (and cheaper) job of it, but that is not the only factor).

And incredibly easy for idiots and terrorist types to vandalize. Then add in the storm damage to the insulation, and the animals getting their itches scratched on the pipe.
And who is maintaining the fences?

Fear of spills seems to be overwhelming, yet fears of the same spills happening in the middle of town due to trains doesn't seem to exist.