Working up a load. COAL first or charge first?

[heretohunt]

The title pretty well explains my question. I usually start with the recommended coal. Then start working up my load in half grain increments. Then if I want to find tune it more I will play with the COAL. I’ve been reading more and more about getting your cartridge overall length established using a minimum powder charge and then using that lenth and working up the best powder charge. Does anyone have experience that we would like to share? Once you have established a best COAL does it work the best for different powders?

[Kurt505]

I’d like to hear from the pros on this as well.

I have always started off with SAAMI coal, once I found my most accurate charge I would play with the coal. I’m not sure if this is the best way of doing it, I’m a self taught reloaded so chances are good I’m doing it all wrong

[leo]

I'm not a pro by any stretch, but I always set my COAL to either 10-50,000 " off the lands, or as long as possible to still fit the magazine and not be in the lands. Which ever works. I always get good results, for hunting accuracy that is. If your bench rest or target shooting, more tuning will be required by someone more knowledgeable than me.

[ramonmark]

I do the exact same process. Also self taught and read. I did use to try with finding the chamber size but found that many times the cartridge was either too long for the magazine or jammed/kissing the lands would result in bullets being pulled from the brass. All of my rifles are dual purpose hunting/target so I like to have the hunting practical mindset with my ammunition. I've always been under the impression that it's personal preference.

[astepanuk]

When I'm starting my load development for a hunting rifle I will measure the Max COAL then I will measure the maximum length on my Box Mag or Clip. I wont load longer then my Box mag for a hunting rifle. I then start my load development doing a .5 gr ladder test to see if I can find any visible Nodes.

By no means a pro but been reloading for 10+ years.

[Nyksta]

I kind of start with figuring out coal first. Seating depth will change velocity slightly due to pressure of the bullet jumping into rifling. So only testing at one charge doesnt always tell the true story of bullet seating preference. The highest pressure will be a COAL where the bullet is closest to touching the lands. I dont jam the rifling so the closest i get is 0.015" off the lands. I start with this coal and load 10 rounds from min to max charge to see at max COAL where my max charge is for pressure signs. After finding max charge with max coal, i have my top limit figured out. From my top load charge i now play with seating depth. I load 4 rounds per group with 3 or 4 different COALs at max charge, a middle charge, and a low charge. This generally shows a pattern for the seating depth the bullet prefers. After a COAL length is decided on, then i load to test charge weight for a velocity accuracy node. Once a charge is pretty good at the pretty good COAL I will play around with slight up and downs on the charge and coal to fine tune the exact combo that works best.

[elkhunter11]

If the magazine will allow, I start .010" off of the lands with lead core bullets, or .050" with monometal bullets, and work up in increments to see if I see any accuracy potential. If the accuracy looks promising, I check velocity, and work up to a velocity that I consider adequate. If I am looking for even more accuracy, I vary the seating depth to see if that improves accuracy. I look for loads where the accuracy is quite constant over a range of powder charges, if the accuracy changes significantly with a slight change in powder charge, I abandon the load altogether.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the magazine will allow, I start .010" off of the lands with lead core bullets, or .050" with monometal bullets, and work up in increments to see if I see any accuracy potential. If the accuracy looks promising, I check velocity, and work up to a velocity that I consider adequate. If I am looking for even more accuracy, I vary the seating depth to see if that improves accuracy. I look for loads where the accuracy is quite constant over a range of powder charges, if the accuracy changes significantly with a slight change in powder charge, I abandon the load altogether.

Completely agree. At mag length or just under I have rarely seen COAL improve groups much by making them a shorter COAL, more distance off lands, if you use Elk's starting points. I won't use a hunting load that is over mag length or actually touches the lands. I don't want a bullet binding in the lands, being pulled and leaving it in the throat.

[260 Rem]

I tune loads with a fixed jump ... vary charge weights ... and fine tune by tinkering with seating. Seating depends somewhat on the bullet shape (tangent or secant ogive). My experience is that secant often like to be snuggled up to the lands or even jambed for best results. Of course, jambing is not a good practice if you don’t know what you are doing, and not recommended for hunting applications.

[Deer Hunter]

Similar to elk hunter, I seat 10 thou off the lands for cup and core, 50 thou off for Barnes (assuming the mag length will allow) and charge at approx 1 gr off of max as determined by quickload or my previous experience. Running it over a chrony, watching for pressure signs and I stop shooting if anything out of the ordinary happens. Once you get the velocity and group size, you can usually zero in to the potential of your rifle pretty quick.

If you have no luck, try a different powder or different weight of bullet or both.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by astepanuk

When I'm starting my load development for a hunting rifle I will measure the Max COAL then I will measure the maximum length on my Box Mag or Clip. I wont load longer then my Box mag for a hunting rifle. I then start my load development doing a .5 gr ladder test to see if I can find any visible Nodes.

By no means a pro but been reloading for 10+ years.

this is the same thing I do.

[Smokinyotes]

I start by loading up 1 of each charge weight and check velocity and case head expansion. When I get the velocity I want or I start to get pressure signs I back off a bit and load some groups. As far as coal, I generally seat .020 off the lands for hunting rifles or as is the case with my 300wm so it fits the mag.

[Digger1]

I pay very little attention to published COAL. Just don’t go short. I measure the actual lands and back off .020”. Maybe because I haven’t owned a rifle yet that hasn’t shot well at .020”. Worked up a load last week for a well worn heavy barrel Savage .223 that still shoots .25 MOA. COAL is 2.40” with Sierra TMK 69g but they still fit in the magazines! Lol

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

The title pretty well explains my question. I usually start with the recommended coal. Then start working up my load in half grain increments. Then if I want to find tune it more I will play with the COAL. I’ve been reading more and more about getting your cartridge overall length established using a minimum powder charge and then using that lenth and working up the best powder charge. Does anyone have experience that we would like to share? Once you have established a best COAL does it work the best for different powders?

The SAAMI OAL will usually work well with most common hunting bullets. If you are going with a particular bullet, such as a mono or one with a very high BC, follow the Mfgr's recommendations regarding the distance off the lands.

Determine your required velocity first (it's a hunting load), using a chronograph.

Then, I suggest you Google) OCW (optimum charge weight ) method for determining your best charge weight and OAL for your chosen powder. Then shoot OCW's round robin precisely as they say using SAAMI COAL. I use 5 rounds each charge weight, going up in .3 grain increments. This may seem to be a lot of work but it really isn't. Tweak as required, but tweaking likely won't be necessary. The main thing is that the OCW method works... especially for hunting loads. Good Luck !

[heretohunt]

I found this about Berger bullets:

Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

[6MT]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

The title pretty well explains my question. I usually start with the recommended coal. Then start working up my load in half grain increments. Then if I want to find tune it more I will play with the COAL. I’ve been reading more and more about getting your cartridge overall length established using a minimum powder charge and then using that lenth and working up the best powder charge. Does anyone have experience that we would like to share? Once you have established a best COAL does it work the best for different powders?

First off, what the he11 are you loading for? What rifle? What caliber? If it's a bolt gun, are you loading for COAL to mag feed or single feed? If it's a semi auto, yeah...I can see where COAL is important.

Or are you referring COAL as OAL from the ogive to the lands (again for a bolt gun)? Or are you talking about seating depth? If you are talking about seating depth, then "COAL" (cartridge over all length) is really only important if you need to mag feed and be inside the dimensions of that magazine.

I usually load test for OCW, and then I'll do seating depth tests, if required. I start with a .010" jump for all calibres. And adjust if needed (very rarely). It's not rocket science. And I hate wasting rounds.

[32-40win]

I always run a set of loads to determine how the gun reacts to the load data I've chosen to run in it, with a couple of bullets and a couple of powders for each bullet. I start at the min load or maybe a grain or two above, and run it to within a grain or to max to see how it conforms to the data that is available. Is my velocity close, lower, higher? Where will it show pressure at? I usually start at.010 off the lands. Sometimes I discover the load I'll work around some more in those tests, sometimes I won't. Then I may play with seating length or what seemed to be the charge weight area I want to work in, according to what I saw. I usually play with the charge weight first and don't mess with seating til last.

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by 6MT

First off, what the he11 are you loading for? What rifle? What caliber? If it's a bolt gun, are you loading for COAL to mag feed or single feed? If it's a semi auto, yeah...I can see where COAL is important.

Or are you referring COAL as OAL from the ogive to the lands (again for a bolt gun)? Or are you talking about seating depth? If you are talking about seating depth, then "COAL" (cartridge over all length) is really only important if you need to mag feed and be inside the dimensions of that magazine.

I usually load test for OCW, and then I'll do seating depth tests, if required. I start with a .010" jump for all calibres. And adjust if needed (very rarely). It's not rocket science. And I hate wasting rounds.

Sako 85 7 rem mag with 168 Berger bullets. Powder is currently reloader 22 but going to try h 1000

[elkhunter11]

I found the best way to avoid much of the time spent determining the correct seating depth, to be to avoid the VLD bullets. I find the Sierra bullets to be much less fussy about seating depths, and they have produced comparable accuracy for me. The Matchking and TMK are excellent target bullets, and the new Gamechanger is shooting very well for a hunting bullet.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

Sako 85 7 rem mag with 168 Berger bullets. Powder is currently reloader 22 but going to try h 1000

Don't worry about the post that is asking those questions. All of the rest of us clearly understood what you were asking and the guns action, caliber, cartridge etc is actually irrelevant to the question, except to the extent of mag loaded vs single loaded and hunt versus target.

[prarie_boy1]

I am by no means an expert but for a hunting rig I seat to mag length provided it's not touching the lands and start with a min range charge and work up in .5 grain increments and once I find a node I play w the powder charge a touch I am only looking for MOA accuracy with hunting rifle so stop when I achieve it and verify results at 200 and 300y. With my varmint/paper punching gun I seated bullets to .010 off lands and started at min charge working up in .3 grain increments once I see a promising charge I begin to fine tune it with smaller increments tell I approach .5 MOA range and stop there I prefer to do this at at around 200-300y min on a calm day. Have had pretty good luck with that generally w the exception of Barnes bullets in a .30-06 I started .050 as per Barnes recommendation and found sub MOA accuracy fairly quick with 4350.

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I found the best way to avoid much of the time spent determining the correct seating depth, to be to avoid the VLD bullets. I find the Sierra bullets to be much less fussy about seating depths, and they have produced comparable accuracy for me. The Matchking and TMK are excellent target bullets, and the new Gamechanger is shooting very well for a hunting bullet.

Where is the fun in avoiding problems?

[Redneck 7]

I’m not a serious reloader but I really enjoy doing it. I use SAMMI specs on coals and I just start at the minimum grain from the book (depending on bullet makes) and go up .3 grains making 3 for each until the max grain recommended.

Then I see how they group and usually end up pulling 20 bullets after and not normally shoot the max or higher charged rounds. I just reload for hunting rifles so this works great for me. Kinda changing up my technique for my long range rifle and going by velocity, then playing with the coal. Doesn’t have to be the most complex way, of it works, it works.

[DeadEyeGardner]

The world of reloading can be more complex than we could possibly imagine. It’s what you wish to make of it. At the end of the day, safety should be highest priority.

That said, the COAL is something that does have big effects on accuracy IMO, but you need to know the max Coal to the lands first if you wish to make any safe and beneficial adjustments. Without this measurement for each bullet(projectile) you could easily run into pressure issues, poor accuracy and unnecessary costs. My recommendation is to purchase an OAL Gauge, the modified cases for the caliber you reload, and a comparator. I have the ones from hornady, and they are a game changer. It cost me under $150 at P&D in edmonton. I used to use the cleaning rod meathod of measuring OAL, and it’s close but my accuracy really improved after these purchases, as well as my confidence in my loads. Measuring from Ogive is much more accurate than bullet tip. In fact, I even found afterwards that I had a load jammed when I thought it was jumped, this has major effects on accuracy and pressure.

I used to find the COAL first, then play with different charges. But I think most would agree that performing a ladder test on a variance of loads first with a safe COAL (about 10 thou off the lands, “jump”) and looking for similar vertical POI to help you find accuracy Nodes, is a better place to start. These nodes will certainly show themselves on paper at 100m by vertical POI. I Usually shoot 2 shots at each charge, as this will help rule out shooter error (unless shooting from a vise) as well as inconsistent reloading technique. This will give several charges that have similar Vertical POI at say 100m, and being able to confirm velocity’s is another game changer (yes a chrono is also a vital piece of equipment that I did not purchase nearly soon enough in my handloading career) Ultimately, pick a constant charge weight in the middle of the Node, and then adjust the coal using the process listed above ^ which I also use a similar process, and it works. Adjusting coal will “fine tune” your load.

I’ll post a picture of a coal test I did after finding a load that shot fairly well out of one of my varmint rifles cambered in 223. I’ll add here that the 5 shot test was done at 100m from a bench with bags front and back. The max coal for this bullet in my rifle is 1.845”. Using the COAL 1.830”, I first found a charge weight that gave me consistent vertical poi and MV by adjusting charges by .2-.3 grain increments. I settled at around 3010 FPS with 55 grain Vmax. The picture of the coal test shows how the fine tuning process works for me anyways, turning a 1 moa load into a 1/2 moa load.

[Digger1]

BTW you don’t have to spend $150 to measure your rifling lands. YouTube how to measure with a bullet and a partially tightened up neck of an empty case. Do it for every different type of bullet you use. Find your lands, set back what you want, work up your powder loads. A chrony is a great $150 investment. A real eye opener when you see what’s actually going on.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Digger1

BTW you don’t have to spend $150 to measure your rifling lands. YouTube how to measure with a bullet and a partially tightened up neck of an empty case. Do it for every different type of bullet you use. Find your lands, set back what you want, work up your powder loads. A chrony is a great $150 investment. A real eye opener when you see what’s actually going on.

Spot on, great advice.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Digger1

BTW you don’t have to spend $150 to measure your rifling lands. YouTube how to measure with a bullet and a partially tightened up neck of an empty case. Do it for every different type of bullet you use. Find your lands, set back what you want, work up your powder loads. A chrony is a great $150 investment. A real eye opener when you see what’s actually going on.

Exactly, I don't own specialty tools for determining distance to the lands, but it hasn't been an issue. It really doesn't matter what the actual number is, as long as you find the optimum seating die setting and can duplicate it. I use micrometer adjustable dies, so the only number that I record is the reading on my seating die.

[Digger1]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Spot on, great advice.

Thanks! I try to keep it simple for the 3 youngsters I have been given for training. Sadly they’re now starting to out-shoot me too. :/

[kujoseto]

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspa...ons/4529817134