DENIED public information by our Bighorn Sheep managers.

[Keeleclimber]

What a frustrating bit of correspondence with our government officials that lead to a denial of public data. See below emails.


Good Day Greg,
I'm hoping to obtain some information pertaining to WMU 400 since 1996 on the:
Harvest numbers (male and female)
Individual ages of all harvest rams.
Population estimates including sex ratios, % of 4/5 rams vs full curl rams.
Where could I find this information?
Thanks for your time,
Carson Nutting

Gregs response:
The bighorn sheep management plan will be out shortly. Are you a resident hunter? Outfitter-Guide? Affiliated with Wild Sheep Foundation? Alberta Fish and Game Association?
Greg Hale Senior Wildlife Biologist AESRD – Operations

My response:
Thanks for the response Greg,
I'm a farmer from Caroline Alberta.
I've hunted sheep in the past but not affiliated with any of the mentioned groups.
So this specific information will be included in the management plan?
When is "Shortly"?
Due to Alberta's compulsory registration of harvested sheep these numbers and age averages should be readily and easily available. Do you not have access? Is there someone else you suggest I contact?
Thanks

Greg:
I’ve got the data but most of what you are looking for will be in the management plan. We are currently not sending out data sets individually until the management plan is finalized. Contact Rob Corrigan in Edmonton if you like.



Thanks for nothing Greg

Anyone know what the age average for rams harvested in WMU 400 post 1996 is?

[Dacotensis]

Prior to last seasons draw deadline,
I contacted numerous people about draw numbers they would be handing out for a new elk draw. I also wanted to know outfitter allocations for the zone.

It was extremely frustrating getting an answer and I never did until 20 days after the deadline. I also never got an answer on allocation numbers.

I was told the guy who had the info on draw numbers was on vacation...

I find it hard to believe that only one person would have that information.

I was told by one lady that they would not have the numbers until
They saw how many people applied.
What?
It's frustrating dealing with some of these people.

On a bright side, the best interaction I had with any official was with a FW officer near whitecourt.

One has to wonder why the guy in Op's post can't just pull up the numbers and forward them.
Obtuse comes to mind. I despise those types.

[LCCFisherman]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And this is why because you guys post it all over the internet...

[gramps73]

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And this is why because you guys post it all over the internet...

This is public information and this is a public form, I don't see the problem with posting this info.
I, on the other hand have a problem with the government not sharing the information before it is written in stone..

[pikergolf]

Government wants to start charging for requests like this and I don't blame them. We live in the information age and we believe we are entitled to what we want, right now. Someone has to go dig that up and send it, all time and money consuming on a very tight budget. If he says it's coming out in the management plan maybe that should be good enough.

My two cents.

[LCCFisherman]

If all you bighorn guys are ****ed at whats happening.. here's an idea. Go to university, get a masters degree in wildlife biology, become the man and enlighten the gov.

[igorot]

Here is my take on this.



You they did not specify the end time of your request i.e 2014 or whatever.

Every government department has their designated FOIP (Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy) officer. This are the person in charge on providing information to the public. They assist if the information can be legally provided. Contact them not the biologist as they don't have the authority.

No they can not provide a partial information if it is yet classified as record.

They are required to provide information as long a its cover under the FOIP act. If they cannot provide the certain information on certain time frame complain to the privacy commissioner

PS - they can also charge $ if it is covered .


http://www.servicealberta.ca/foip/

http://www.oipc.ab.ca/pages/home/default.aspx

[igorot]

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

If all you bighorn guys are ****ed at whats happening.. here's an idea. Go to university, get a masters degree in wildlife biology, become the man and enlighten the gov.

I thought the OPs intent was the get a public information or is he trolling

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Government wants to start charging for requests like this and I don't blame them. We live in the information age and we believe we are entitled to what we want, right now. Someone has to go dig that up and send it, all time and money consuming on a very tight budget. If he says it's coming out in the management plan maybe that should be good enough.

My two cents.

I don't care if they charge, I just wanted some easily accessed public information to review and base an opinion on before the management plan is produced.

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

If all you bighorn guys are ****ed at whats happening.. here's an idea. Go to university, get a masters degree in wildlife biology, become the man and enlighten the gov.

Doesn't take a degree to figure out the proposed sheep changes are ridiculous. Maybe our current bio's need go back to university in Quebec so we can get some common sense management in place while they're out of the picture.

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

I don't care if they charge, I just wanted some easily accessed public information to review and base an opinion on before the management plan is produced.




Doesn't take a degree to figure out the proposed sheep changes are ridiculous. Maybe our current bio's need go back to university in Quebec so we can get some common sense management in place while they're out of the picture.

X2 I would pay for the data.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

If all you bighorn guys are ****ed at whats happening.. here's an idea. Go to university, get a masters degree in wildlife biology, become the man and enlighten the gov.

Haven't you already been told to stay in your section of the forum more than once.

[igorot]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

to review and base an opinion on before the management plan is produced.
.

Good luck with that

[gramps73]

Originally Posted by LKILR

X2 I would pay for the data.

Should not have to pay, these things are not filed in a file cabinet some where in the basement of some building. all of these files will be stored electronically not hard at all to find...Google search is your friend...just share the info not sure what the secret is all about...

[rem338win]

He gave you an answer and it was reasonable. All the data you are looking for is coming out for everyone in the report.

Hold your horses.....

[Deer Hunter]

Shouldn't the afga or wsf have this?
Isn't requesting this raw data/information from srd part of their purpose?

[edmhunter]

No Big Surprise There man!

Try getting a straight answer on how many Mule Deer are left in the zones that the government culled, does not get more evasive!

[pottymouth]

Alot of their data, hasn't been turned into a computer generated spread sheet.....

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Shouldn't the afga or wsf have this?
Isn't requesting this raw data/information from srd part of their purpose?

No guarantee they'll have it either. This government likes to be secret for some reason.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

No guarantee they'll have it either. This government likes to be secret for some reason.

No guarantee they even asked for it.

[edmhunter]

Exactly Matt!

I only wonder what their real agenda is?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Shouldn't the afga or wsf have this?
Isn't requesting this raw data/information from srd part of their purpose?

Yes they should have the information. But.....

In this case, the WSF has been asking for this data for over four years without success. The government gave the data to the genetic harm researchers to be studied and thus the data has been placed under an embargo. The embargo is dated to expire on July 15 of this year.

It's all part of the plan. Keep the public in the dark until the desired changes have been finalized.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

No guarantee they even asked for it.

They've asked for it.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Yes they should have the information. But.....

In this case, the WSF has been asking for this data for over four years without success.

It's all part of the plan. Keep the public in the dark until the desired changes have been finalized.

Asking for 4 years? Why didn't they FOIP it?
All conspiracy theories...because the groups representing hunters are completely ineffective at doing so.

Does APOS have better access to this type of information compared to the other groups? Of course they do.

Don't blame the government, blame the groups who are supposed to interact with them. The groups that take your money every year...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Asking for 4 years? Why didn't they FOIP it?
All conspiracy theories...because the groups representing hunters are completely ineffective at doing so.

Does APOS have better access to this type of information compared to the other groups? Of course they do.

Don't blame the government, blame the groups who are supposed to interact with them. The groups that take your money every year...

As I stated, the government has locked up this public information through an embargo.

Carry on bashing regardless of the facts....

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Carry on bashing regardless of the facts....

Looks to me as youre the one without the facts... But lots of conspiracies. Scaring people into your view of "proper" conservation.

I won't carry on, but you will. Adios amigo

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Looks to me as youre the one without the facts... But lots of conspiracies. Scaring people into your view of "proper" conservation.

I won't carry on, but you will. Adios amigo

I did make a mistake earlier, the embargo is in place until Aug. , not July...

From the government sponsored sheep research into hunting induced genetic selection. Note the last line....

http://datadryad.org/resource/doi:10.5061/dryad.f4f6b/1


Pelletier et al_DATA

When using this data, please cite the original publication:Pelletier F, Festa-Bianchet M, Jorgenson JT, Feder C, Hubbs A (2014) Can phenotypic rescue from harvest refuges buffer wild sheep from selective hunting? Ecology and Evolution, online in advance of print.*http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/ece3.1185Additionally, please cite the Dryad data package:Pelletier F, Festa-Bianchet M, Jorgenson JT, Feder C, Hubbs A (2014) Data from: Can phenotypic rescue from harvest refuges buffer wild sheep from selective hunting?.*Dryad Digital Repository.*http://dx.doi.org/10.5061/dryad.f4f6bCite*|*Share

*DOIhttp://dx.doi.org/10.5061/dryad.f4f6b/1Pageviews20Downloaded3 timesKeywordsArtificial selection,*harvest,*parks,*source-sink dynamics,*trophy hunting,ungulatesDate Published2014-08-14T18:30:15ZScientific NamesOvis canadensisSpatial CoverageAlberta, CanadaContained in Data PackageData from: Can phenotypic rescue from harvest refuges buffer wild sheep from selective hunting?.Description*Records from >7000 trophy bighorn rams (Ovis canadensis) harvested in Alberta, Canada, between 1974 and 2011

Show Full Metadata

At the request of the author, this item is embargoed until 2015-08-14

[TangoKilo]

Hmmmmmmm.

WB might just be on to something there....

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

As I stated, the government has locked up this public information through an embargo.

Carry on bashing regardless of the facts....

Do you not believe the "bashing" as you call it, is justified as you state yourself this is "public information".

I am not a sheep hunter so don't really have a horse in this race, except for the fact that the hiding, and strategic delaying of information regarding many species in this province pizzes me off.

The fact that this government does this over and over will continue to draw criticism/bashing from the "public" and other concerned outdoor clubs, and no one should be surprised by it. The secrecy BS with ESRD has got to stop.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Do you not believe the "bashing" as you call it, is justified as you state yourself this is "public information".

I am not a sheep hunter so don't really have a horse in this race, except for the fact that the hiding, and strategic delaying of information regarding many species in this province pizzes me off.

The fact that this government does this over and over will continue to draw criticism/bashing from the "public" and other concerned outdoor clubs, and no one should be surprised by it. The secrecy BS with ESRD has got to stop.

I think you may have missed the context.

Deer Hunter was bashing the WSF for not obtaining the material after I explained why they have been unsuccessful.


Absolutley, bash where appropriate.

As you and Deer Hunter know, I have spent a lot of effort in trying to obtain public information regarding Alberta Big Game. I am still working on requests that were started years ago. I strongly feel that our government has failed in its duty to allow the public access to public information. And I do agree that our game groups have all too often accepted NOT having pertinent information. I am just saying that in this case Deer Hunter's bashing of the WSF is unfounded and unfair.

[igorot]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;2746530]I strongly feel that our government has failed in its duty to allow the public access to public information. QUOTE]

Document it and file a complain to the privacy commissioner. Make sure to CC all media outlet and organization that has interest on in it. Search any available e-mail on the net Some FOIP coordinators have no clue what their job description is.