Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-04-2020, 07:05 PM
heretohunt's Avatar
heretohunt heretohunt is online now
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,229
Default Chronographs. If you didn’t have one

I am an intermediate reloader. I currently do not own a chronograph but I’m starting to believe it is a missing link. I’m guessing my load development time and money could be cut in half if I had one?
The way I work up my loads is to shoot three shots going up in half grain increments for the bigger cartridges and .3 for the smaller one. Then I take the most accurate loads and by retrying the best Loads/groupings I choose. I have had good luck out to 500 yards but not great after that It could be my shooting or...?


Should I get one? Which one? I believe the labradar is pretty sweet but a lot of money.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-04-2020, 07:38 PM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

It won’t hurt having one.
BUT

Do things as you have been doing things and don’t bring your chronograph into the equation till you’ve got a good looking load.

This keeps you from chasing numbers, like book velocities.

As for your beyond 500 issues, your variations in velocity are your nemesis, as are the nut behind the bolt(you) and your optics, and Mother Nature.

But your velocity variations come from a miriade of variables, often due to your processes, tooling and components more so than mere powder charges alone.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-04-2020, 08:14 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,521
Default

Labradar is great but it is prohibitively expensive magneto speed is also great at a lower price point Can’t go wrong with either. If you don’t want to drop the big bucks you can also go with an optical style crono match your purchase with the type of rifles you own it would be silly to spend the cost of labradar if your rifle library added together didn’t amount to as much as the unit costs.

I also used to reload with the same method you use. Now with Labradar I select a series to test .2-.3 gr apart fire the string record velocity look for the flat spots and go back and try the nodes in 3 round groups usually I can find a number of nodes (3-5ish sets) not all of them shoot good groups and get eliminated on the second range trip. After the second trip I cull the remaining in spec groups by size es and deviation from that I’m usually at 1 load and then it’s down to seating depth for fine tuning and maybe annealing do help shrink es.

I find having labradar I can gather enough data to plug into quickload to get extremely accurate computer projections of my loads eliminating guess work. I feel with the extra crono data I can keep my pressures in spec and under max safely making accurate loads with low extreme spread and standard deviation. I know this set up isn’t popular with the seat of your pants or the manual is gospel reloaders but it works for me.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-05-2020, 12:38 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubious View Post
Labradar is great but it is prohibitively expensive magneto speed is also great at a lower price point Can’t go wrong with either. If you don’t want to drop the big bucks you can also go with an optical style crono match your purchase with the type of rifles you own it would be silly to spend the cost of labradar if your rifle library added together didn’t amount to as much as the unit costs.

I also used to reload with the same method you use. Now with Labradar I select a series to test .2-.3 gr apart fire the string record velocity look for the flat spots and go back and try the nodes in 3 round groups usually I can find a number of nodes (3-5ish sets) not all of them shoot good groups and get eliminated on the second range trip. After the second trip I cull the remaining in spec groups by size es and deviation from that I’m usually at 1 load and then it’s down to seating depth for fine tuning and maybe annealing do help shrink es.

I find having labradar I can gather enough data to plug into quickload to get extremely accurate computer projections of my loads eliminating guess work. I feel with the extra crono data I can keep my pressures in spec and under max safely making accurate loads with low extreme spread and standard deviation. I know this set up isn’t popular with the seat of your pants or the manual is gospel reloaders but it works for me.
Good post ! That is pretty much the method I use. The manuals are a guide, QuickLoad is the verifier and a Chrono verifies Quickload. The target has the final say. Adjusting the burn rates on QL to your particular firearm is paramount to obtaining very accurate info... every time.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-05-2020, 12:46 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

I like my Magnetospeed, quick to set up, and it works on every cartridge that I have used it on. Labradar does have some restrictions that effect certain cartridges. I trust my magnetospeed before I trust any manual or calculation.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-05-2020, 01:30 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
I am an intermediate reloader. I currently do not own a chronograph but I’m starting to believe it is a missing link. I’m guessing my load development time and money could be cut in half if I had one?
The way I work up my loads is to shoot three shots going up in half grain increments for the bigger cartridges and .3 for the smaller one. Then I take the most accurate loads and by retrying the best Loads/groupings I choose. I have had good luck out to 500 yards but not great after that It could be my shooting or...?
This is the same method I started with and it works but a chronograph can save you an awful lot of time and money. On more than one occasion I ended up with a fluke 3 or 5 shot excellent group that I couldn't replicate. So I adjusted and started shooting way more groups to verify, to the point that things got a little silly. When you want to check 6 charge weights and are shooting 3 5 shot groups of each charge it basically an entire box of bullets before you even get to the second phase.

I use the method that dubious explained, here's a more detailed explanation.

https://www.65guys.com/10-round-load...t-ladder-test/

This way I can load up 10 charges in .3gr increments. When you shoot these over the crono you will look for 2 or more adjacent charges that get you similar velocities. Here's an example with made up numbers:

50 2100 fps
50.3 2170 fps
50.6 2200 fps
50.9 2204 fps
51.2 2235 fps

Now this alone doesn't tell you a thing about accuracy but usually you will find that that nice flat spot between 50.6 and 50.9 is going to be consistent. Now that we have that you make up 10 rounds with a charge weight of say 50.7 and head back with your chrono to verify. If all 10 of those rounds are close to each other in velocity, with an Extreme Spread of < 20fps then you can go ahead and start shooting groups. Tweaking the seating depth and brass prep will probably tighten up your group at this point as well.

Right there the chrono has saved you a ton of time and money. As I use a magnetospeed I need to shoot a bit more for those groups, it throws stuff off a bit when it's on the barrel. The labradar would allow you to accomplish both in a single step but at a significant initial cost.

One other note for shooting at 500 and beyond, the most important thing here will be consistent velocity. I'll take a load that has a low velocity spread over one that makes smaller groups for that scenario 100% of the time.

Last edited by midgetwaiter; 06-05-2020 at 01:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-05-2020, 01:31 PM
Dean2's Avatar
Dean2 Dean2 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,971
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubious View Post
Labradar is great but it is prohibitively expensive magneto speed is also great at a lower price point Can’t go wrong with either. If you don’t want to drop the big bucks you can also go with an optical style crono match your purchase with the type of rifles you own it would be silly to spend the cost of labradar if your rifle library added together didn’t amount to as much as the unit costs.

I also used to reload with the same method you use. Now with Labradar I select a series to test .2-.3 gr apart fire the string record velocity look for the flat spots and go back and try the nodes in 3 round groups usually I can find a number of nodes (3-5ish sets) not all of them shoot good groups and get eliminated on the second range trip. After the second trip I cull the remaining in spec groups by size es and deviation from that I’m usually at 1 load and then it’s down to seating depth for fine tuning and maybe annealing do help shrink es.

I find having labradar I can gather enough data to plug into quickload to get extremely accurate computer projections of my loads eliminating guess work. I feel with the extra crono data I can keep my pressures in spec and under max safely making accurate loads with low extreme spread and standard deviation. I know this set up isn’t popular with the seat of your pants or the manual is gospel reloaders but it works for me.
Probably one of the best written and explained pieces on using a Chrono effectively that I have read in a long while.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-05-2020, 02:25 PM
GrandSlam GrandSlam is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 605
Default

I like the Magnetospeed. Easy to setup and not weather dependent.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-05-2020, 03:33 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Long distance shooting

if your intention is to shoot long distance a chronograph is a must. You cant plug a shooting solution into a ballistics program without your velocity. If you have velocity and BC of the bullet your using then your drop is easily determined. There are other factors like air pressure and temp that come into play but by and large the most significant factors in determining the elevation needed to be dialed at long distance are your velocity and BC.

Long story short yes get a good chrono. I have owned a Magneto Speed and a Labradar. Both are excellent and accurate but I preferred the LAB. The reason being I was always worried about shooting the bayonet of the magneto. I also use rifles with muzzle brakes and found that to be a pain with the magneto. I am not the most handy guy and often struggled to get a firm fit with the magneto. I am more of a techy person and the LAB was more techy and I like that. Your mileage my vary and others may have a different reason why they prefer one over another. You cant go wrong with either as they are excellent at what they do.

PS The magneto speed changed my point of impact. So when I took the bayonet off I would have to shoot additional groups to zero my scope. The Labradar has no impact on POI and isnt affected by weather. Another selling feature is that it gives you velocity downrange and you can confirm the BC of your bullet if your good at the math. I am part of the 4/3 people that struggle with math.

I would definately echo what others are saying about Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation.

I shoot out to 1000m (not well) but I can get hits at that range. I wont use a load that has over a 10 FPS ES spread. (well maybe 12 if it prints 1/2moa groups) The ES number becomes very important at longer distances.

Last edited by markg; 06-05-2020 at 03:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-05-2020, 03:43 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg View Post
if your intention is to shoot long distance a chronograph is a must. You cant plug a shooting solution into a ballistics program without your velocity. If you have velocity and BC of the bullet your using then your drop is easily determined. There are other factors like air pressure and temp that come into play but by and large the most significant factors in determining the elevation needed to be dialed at long distance are your velocity and BC.

Long story short yes get a good chrono. I have owned a Magneto Speed and a Labradar. Both are excellent and accurate but I preferred the LAB. The reason being I was always worried about shooting the bayonet of the magneto. I also use rifles with muzzle brakes and found that to be a pain with the magneto. I am not the most handy guy and often struggled to get a firm fit with the magneto. I am more of a techy person and the LAB was more techy and I like that. Your mileage my vary and others may have a different reason why they prefer one over another. You cant go wrong with either as they are excellent at what they do.

PS The magneto speed changed my point of impact. So when I took the bayonet off I would have to shoot additional groups to zero my scope. The Labradar has no impact on POI and isnt affected by weather. Another selling feature is that it gives you velocity downrange and you can confirm the BC of your bullet if your good at the math. I am part of the 4/3 people that struggle with math.

Yeah the labradar is the best. There isn't a close second.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-05-2020, 04:32 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Yeah the labradar is the best. There isn't a close second.
Unless you are working with loads above 3900fps. That would include my 17Fireball, or my 20 Tactical with 32gr bullets, and that is why I went with the Magnetospeed.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-05-2020, 04:50 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless you are working with loads above 3900fps. That would include my 17Fireball, or my 20 Tactical with 32gr bullets, and that is why I went with the Magnetospeed.
Dangling that thing off the end of the barrel and having to switch it between guns while a barrel cools is a pain.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:12 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default your right

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless you are working with loads above 3900fps. That would include my 17Fireball, or my 20 Tactical with 32gr bullets, and that is why I went with the Magnetospeed.
I had a .204 that I had trouble getting consistent data with when using my Lab Radar.

So if your shooting alot of small fast stuff pick the magneto

Other than that I do much prefer the Lab
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:17 PM
hawk-i hawk-i is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 391
Default

MagnetoSpeed for me...so easy to use and the cost isn't bad...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:25 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Dangling that thing off the end of the barrel and having to switch it between guns while a barrel cools is a pain.
Is getting no readings with a Labradar a better option? Labradar does not work above 3900fps.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.

Last edited by elkhunter11; 06-05-2020 at 05:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:30 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Is getting no readings with a Labradar a better option?
Is this a serious question?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:36 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Is this a serious question?
It's a question that you need to answer if you use loads that produce more than 3900fps, or if you load shotshells with shot. In those situations, the Labradar isn't the best choice, it is no choice. I like the idea of the Labradar, but it won't work on all of my loads.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:40 PM
spazzy spazzy is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: calgary
Posts: 279
Default

Chronograph is an essential tool for finding accuracy nodes
But if all you need is a velocity to plug into a calculator you can use the applied ballistics app and plug in your bullet drops at 500 yards to find out your true velocity .
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:50 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
It's a question that you need to answer if you use loads that produce more than 3900fps, or if you load shotshells with shot. In those situations, the Labradar isn't the best choice, it is no choice. I like the idea of the Labradar, but it won't work on all of my loads.
I get it. You've told us three times it doesn't work above 3900 fps. You can stop now.

Do you use a chrony for load development? I do. And I don't want a strap on sensor dangling off the end of my barrel as it changes poi/ harmonics.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:09 PM
Alta_Redneck Alta_Redneck is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 224
Default

I run a magneto speed but if I had to do it again id just save a bit longer for a labradar. The magneto works good but it effects the bullet impact location so much that you can’t use your impacts for any sort of data. It would be nice to be able to look for a velocity node and verify with bullet impact locations. On my hunting rifle the magneto sends the bullets a full 12” high, on my heavy barrel target rifle it’s about 3” high and opens the groups up a fair bit as well.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:11 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
I get it. You've told us three times it doesn't work above 3900 fps. You can stop now.

Do you use a chrony for load development? I do. And I don't want a strap on sensor dangling off the end of my barrel as it changes poi/ harmonics.
I don't bother with a chronograph until I see if a load has some accuracy potential. If the accuracy looks good, I check the velocity, if it is what I am expecting fine, if I am 150-200fps below what I expect, I keep working up the load, and see if the accuracy holds at the velocity that I am hoping for.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:40 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I don't bother with a chronograph until I see if a load has some accuracy potential. If the accuracy looks good, I check the velocity, if it is what I am expecting fine, if I am 150-200fps below what I expect, I keep working up the load, and see if the accuracy holds at the velocity that I am hoping for.
See there is no bother shooting with a labradar.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:51 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
See there is no bother shooting with a labradar.
The bother is that once I am closing in on my load in my faster cartridges, Labradar won't work, whereas my magnetospeed will. I really like the concept of Labradar, but the design limitations keep me from purchasing one.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:11 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
I get it. You've told us three times it doesn't work above 3900 fps. You can stop now.

Do you use a chrony for load development? I do. And I don't want a strap on sensor dangling off the end of my barrel as it changes poi/ harmonics.
That’s what you have told us. More than once. We got it.

It works so well that guys that are serious about it use two to be safe.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”

-Billy Molls
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:33 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
That’s what you have told us. More than once. We got it.

It works so well that guys that are serious about it use two to be safe.
Yeah sorry.

I have used two and they were consistent. You?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:46 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Yeah sorry.

I have used two and they were consistent. You?
No thanks. I bought enough components to burn out a barrel instead.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”

-Billy Molls
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:49 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
No thanks. I bought enough components to burn out a barrel instead.
That’s nice. I didn’t buy two chronies. That’s what friends are for.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-05-2020, 08:22 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,521
Default

This is why we can’t have nice things.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-05-2020, 08:25 PM
sailor sailor is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Edmonton,AB
Posts: 997
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
It won’t hurt having one.
BUT

Do things as you have been doing things and don’t bring your chronograph into the equation till you’ve got a good looking load.

This keeps you from chasing numbers, like book velocities.

As for your beyond 500 issues, your variations in velocity are your nemesis, as are the nut behind the bolt(you) and your optics, and Mother Nature.

But your velocity variations come from a miriade of variables, often due to your processes, tooling and components more so than mere powder charges alone.
Then, could you please open for all users the secret of tooling, please?
__________________
you know I prefer to shoot off hand
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-05-2020, 08:47 PM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Then, could you please open for all users the secret of tooling, please?
Take a level 2 reloading course and be enlightened.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.