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  #91  
Old 02-11-2018, 11:59 AM
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MK2750 MK2750 is offline
 
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Considering no dogs are "very good" at grouse, I find the whole thing a little strange. I don't doubt the little Springers are awesome Pheasant dogs but a 2 for geese is a bit of a stretch. As mentioned above, not all Labradors are suitable for a full hunt of large honkers.

As much as I love Labradors, a well trained Chessy is a superior hunter at nearly every game. Overall they are just closer to their roots and everyone I have met are just full of hunt and determination. If not for their possessive and sometimes unpredictable personality they would be the ultimate gun dog, a part from looks of course.
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  #92  
Old 02-11-2018, 12:34 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
They don't score 1...
Either I punched GWP instead of WPG the second time, or autocorrect changed it, and I never noticed. The point is the outfitter's clients have been killing thousands of geese every year for several years over his WPGs, and he is happy with them. I doubt that he would rate them a 1, or even a 2, based on his experience.
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  #93  
Old 02-11-2018, 01:31 PM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Either I punched GWP instead of WPG the second time, or autocorrect changed it, and I never noticed. The point is the outfitter's clients have been killing thousands of geese every year for several years over his WPGs, and he is happy with them. I doubt that he would rate them a 1, or even a 2, based on his experience.
From my experience I'd have to agree with it. Mine are decent on Ducks, Snows and Specks but are brutal on Honkers.
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  #94  
Old 02-11-2018, 01:49 PM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Of course this is opinion.. It may be a collection of several people's opinions, but it is still opinion. Anything that can't be measured using instruments, is opinion. A waterfowl outfitter whose dog I shot over for our NAVHDA tests last summer uses nothing but WPGs for hunting geese. I thought that this was odd, so I asked him why he didn't use labs or chesapeakes, and his answer was, that he wouldn't use the GWPs for his business, if they weren't good at hunting geese. Perhaps he trains them differently than other people, but he claims they do a great job, which certainly doesn't agree with the 1 on the chart you posted,
Yup, you're absolutely correct...it's a conglomeration of several knowledgeable gundog folks' opinions based on their years of experience with many different breeds of dogs, hunting experiences, etc...no doubt about it, but overall I think it's a fairly accurate rating (understanding that there are always individual dogs of every breed that are the exception to the rule). And I agree...giving a Springer a rating of 2 on geese is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps some of the larger males might be given a "2", but a 35 pound female? I don't think so.....

Lots of things are based on supposedly experts' opinions (and biases). Field Trials, Dog Shows, etc. are all based on a judge's opinions...very subjective. Ditto for rodeos...judges award points based on their opinion of how a bull or horse bucked, how the rider rode, etc. I think for the purpose of someone selecting the right breed for the species they hunt the most, the chart is as close as any rating I've seen.
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  #95  
Old 02-11-2018, 01:55 PM
Newellknik Newellknik is offline
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To visit Versatile Dogs .Com the definitive forum on Bird dogs
in North America.
I'm surprised you only got a couple of GSP s I believe they are the
current do everything field dog in the country .
Highly touted .
I remember that an Irish Setter was the deal .....gone .
If going pointer ....I don't know if this was mentioned
Or asked ....Horseback or Foot .....
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  #96  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:22 PM
raised by wolves raised by wolves is offline
 
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Hey SNS2, we have a buddy with pointers. His dogs are great at covering the ground. Running non-stop and showing me exactly where there were no birds. Those bloody things were fast but had no nose for roosters. My lab stayed nearby like a good friend, kept me company, and found the birds for me every time we went out. I know not all pointers are like our buddy's dogs, but I will never hunt with a pointer after witnessing the chaos of those dogs. I will stick with my labs.
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  #97  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:44 AM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Hey SNS2, we have a buddy with pointers. His dogs are great at covering the ground. Running non-stop and showing me exactly where there were no birds. Those bloody things were fast but had no nose for roosters. My lab stayed nearby like a good friend, kept me company, and found the birds for me every time we went out. I know not all pointers are like our buddy's dogs, but I will never hunt with a pointer after witnessing the chaos of those dogs. I will stick with my labs.
A pointing breed is great when hunting Sharptails, Huns, etc.....birds that are in the wide open and you need to cover a lot of ground, but it's the rare pheasant that will hold when a dog is on point 600 yards away. I've never seen one. Huns and Sharptail will hold quite well for a Pointer (in the earlier part of the season). Rooster pheasants are like a race horse (talking wild pheasants, not preserve birds). I have a Setter and he'll range out there 500 or 600 yards at times, but he's usually within 200 yards. He's fantastic on Huns and Sharptails, but I can't even rate him as mediocre on pheasants. I've seen him pick up the scent on go on point on a Sharptail from 100 yards away and he won't move a muscle until I get there....He's a lot of fun to hunt with, but when pheasant season opens I take my Springers.....
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  #98  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:14 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by tatonka2 View Post
A pointing breed is great when hunting Sharptails, Huns, etc.....birds that are in the wide open and you need to cover a lot of ground, but it's the rare pheasant that will hold when a dog is on point 600 yards away. I've never seen one. Huns and Sharptail will hold quite well for a Pointer (in the earlier part of the season). Rooster pheasants are like a race horse (talking wild pheasants, not preserve birds). I have a Setter and he'll range out there 500 or 600 yards at times, but he's usually within 200 yards. He's fantastic on Huns and Sharptails, but I can't even rate him as mediocre on pheasants. I've seen him pick up the scent on go on point on a Sharptail from 100 yards away and he won't move a muscle until I get there....He's a lot of fun to hunt with, but when pheasant season opens I take my Springers.....
Contrary to popular belief, we kill about 75% of our release site pheasants in the brush, rather than in open fields. When the truck first arrives, there is usually a slaughter in the vicinity of the release, but within hours, most birds are driven into the brush. Within a day or two, a rooster in the open grass, is by far the minority. In order to get those remaining birds, the dogs must go into the brush to either point them or flush them. That isn't the case with some of the Southern sites, but that is the case for us. That isn't saying that we don't kill any birds in the open grass, we do kill some , and we do encounter birds that run a couple of hundred yards as well. I haqven't killed a lot of wild pheasants, but I have killed some, and the cover that they were in was no tighter than the cover that we kill most release birds in.
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  #99  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I haqven't killed a lot of wild pheasants, but I have killed some, and the cover that they were in was no tighter than the cover that we kill most release birds in.
The cover may be similar but the wild birds are sure different.
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  #100  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:52 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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The cover may be similar but the wild birds are sure different.
Some are, but we never had any problems killing them over pointers.
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  #101  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:58 AM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Some are, but we never had any problems killing them over pointers.
How many wild roosters have you shot over your GWP?
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  #102  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:06 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by angery jonn View Post
How many wild roosters have you shot over your GWP?
I haven't had my own Drahthaar on wild pheasants yet, but I hunted wild pheasants over a friends GWPs for several years before getting my own dog, likely a couple of dozen in total. And my friend also killed about the same amount , even though he is a terrible wingshooter. Those hunts are what got me interested in getting my own dog, and in choosing a breed.
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  #103  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:35 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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An interesting conclusion from the table is Sringers, labs and Chesapeaks were scored as the 3 top bird dogs with total gross points of 24. All others were behind dragging their tails.
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  #104  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:07 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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An interesting conclusion from the table is Sringers, labs and Chesapeaks were scored as the 3 top bird dogs with total gross points of 24. All others were behind dragging their tails.
What do you suppose would happen if Hungarian partridges were added to the mix? They are one of the birds that we actually hunt in Alberta. As well, if grouse refers to ruffed grouse, adding sharptails would change the scores again. The chart is interesting, but it isn't really representative of bird hunting in Alberta.
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  #105  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:09 AM
M.C. Gusto M.C. Gusto is offline
 
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That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.
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  #106  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:53 PM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
What do you suppose would happen if Hungarian partridges were added to the mix? They are one of the birds that we actually hunt in Alberta. As well, if grouse refers to ruffed grouse, adding sharptails would change the scores again. The chart is interesting, but it isn't really representative of bird hunting in Alberta.
Very good point....there's a huge difference between a Ruffed Grouse and a Sharptail Grouse as well, but the chart doesn't differentiate. The original post was about Pheasants and whether a Lab or a Pointer would be the better choice.
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  #107  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:57 PM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
An interesting conclusion from the table is Sringers, labs and Chesapeaks were scored as the 3 top bird dogs with total gross points of 24. All others were behind dragging their tails.
I don't think adding up the points to come up with the top bird dogs was the intend of the chart. It was done to show which breeds are generally best suited for the different birds shown in the chart.
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  #108  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:12 PM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto View Post
That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.
Field trials are not hunting....Generally speaking, they are games developed by people and people cannot duplicate a real day of hunting. The top retriever trial dogs are Labs because labs are much easier to train than a Chessie....it's not because a Lab is necessarily a better waterfowl dog. Quite the opposite in many peoples' opinions who hunt waterfowl. Plus for every Chessie around there are probably 1,000 or more Labs.

Springer trials are sort of set up to duplicate a day of hunting, but in reality they are not. Two birds are put out for each dog, so they rarely are working more than 10 minutes per series at a trial. So, field trialers want a dog that is fast and flashy for 10 minutes or so where as a hunter wants a dog that will hunt hard all day. Many, many Springers I've seen would do well in field trials, but most hunters don't have the time, interest, or money to trial a dog. Ditto for many of the breeds.
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  #109  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:54 PM
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Field trials are not hunting.....
I pretty much agree with you on that. When I got my first GSP I joined both of our local clubs hoping to get some tips on training etc. I would usually volunteer for planting birds in the bird field. I knew how many birds were in the field and was a bit disappointed that very few were found. I asked a few of the regulars why that was. The answer I got was that it really was not such a big deal because the dogs were judged mostly on their run.

I once I saw a dog that I thought was pretty good because he actually found birds. When I openly praised that dog a few handlers said that he was just a meat dog and never placed well in the trials. I thought finding meat was the name of the game? I guess not so.

I used to attend most of the pointing dog trials as a volunteer or a spectator and I actually thought most of those were better than the trial dogs.

My first love was the gsp, but I have to say that the Springers sure turned my head. I went to a few trials or tests I am not sure which but nearly all the dog work impressed me. I thought the dogs worked the cover better and found more birds and I think that the selected gunners were far superior in that they killed the birds in a way that better showed the dogs retrieving. They all looked like hunting dogs to me. If it were not for me having a couple gsps that kept me busy I would have started talking to Springer breeders.

Bottom line for me though, is if it is a bird dog, I am in love
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  #110  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:37 PM
dfrobert dfrobert is offline
 
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I'm lost now. What kind of pointer we talking? If its a big running english pointer on pheasant, most labs worth feeding would be way better IMO. If its my Griffon, well he has outdone the labs that I have hunted roosters with him. Talking wild birds here. BIG difference hunting wild roosters vs. realeased birds. My dog has never caught a wild pheasant after 8 years on them. He has caught more than a few released birds though.

There is also good and bad dogs in a lot of the breeds. Labs with no desire to hunt/retrieve. Griffons that are scared of their own shadow. Backyard breeders only interested in a buck, and not bettering a breed. GSPs wound so tight they couldn't sit still in a duck blind for more than 5minutes. However there are lines of dogs in all the breeds out there that can get the job done in style on all sorts of birds.

A well rounded versatile GSP, GWP, WPG, Pudelpointer, etc should be able to change their game from hunting Ruffies in the poplars, roosters in the coulees, Huns and sharptails in the EID lands. I'll take a versatile pointer on upland any day of the week over a Lab. A versatile pointer with desire and training to retrieve can handle waterfowl very well.

If I wanted a dog strictly for ducks and geese I'd get a Lab. That is the hunting they were bred for. If I wanted a flusher for pheasants it would be a Springer with a big motor. I think I'll stick with Griffons for everything though.
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  #111  
Old 02-13-2018, 07:33 AM
densa44 densa44 is offline
 
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I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

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  #112  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:22 AM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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I have had a few German Short Hairs and hunted behind some great labs and springers. At the end of the day, I still have my GSP's and absolutely enjoy viewing the dog work the ditch parrots.
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  #113  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:21 AM
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Field trials are not hunting.... Same thing as saying street smart not book smart.

Make no mistake a dog that can hammer tests in an open stake field trail is going to be a damn good hunting dog.

Regardless - the best hunting dog is your hunting dog.
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  #114  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by densa44 View Post
I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

They all started as wolves!
With all due respect and coming from someone that has seen a way more than one Chesapeake Retriever (including one I am working with) they are awesome retrievers and second to none when it comes to waterfowl. They are much more likely to be rough mouthed on cripples than timid and in fact they are 100 times more likely to kill your neighbor's cat than ever back down from a cripple.

They will not jump through hoops for you, detest repetitive boring drills and I have hunted over several that simply would not play fetch. They can be stubborn and do not like being told what to do, fortunately they seldom need to be told anything when it comes to waterfowl.

They also have a superior nose for upland but their coat makes them overheat easily so extreme caution is needed if working them in the heat.
Obliviously, they make poor field trial dogs and in fact you would be lucky to get more than a couple of them together without a fight breaking out.

Pedigree is obviously important as long as you know what you want and can handle what you buy. A long list of field champions is awesome however the trainers are often the ones that should be getting the ribbons. Just because every animal in a dog's pedigree is a super field trial dog does not mean that the average novice is going to get that same performance. More often than not the exact opposite is true. Champion field dogs are like Olympic athletes. They need to be fed right, exercised, stimulated and trained everyday. Everybody wants a great field dog until day 4 when he eats the sofa out of boredom and day 10 when he is down the street or across town looking for something to do.

Health clearances and some working pedigree is more than enough for all but the most die hard outdoorsman but getting to know and trusting your breeder is the best advice. Be honest with a reputable breeder as to your lifestyle and expectations and he/she will point you in the right direction. I talked to several reputable breeders and explained exactly what I wanted. Four in a row told me they didn't have what I want even though they had puppies for sale. Two referred me to a breeder that did have what I wanted although the pup was being held back for part of their breeding program. A deal was struck and i am confident I found a good dog.

You have made the statement "Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds" before and it still makes no sense. If you want a dog that can swim, your best bet is to get one with webbed feet and a waterproof coat. If you want a dog that can point you should stick with the pointing breeds. Each breed has different natural abilities and temperament that are common throughout the breed. Reputable breeders use this benchmark above all others. To suggest there is other breeds that are more like a Labrador Retriever than an actual Labrador Retriever is beyond my comprehension.
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  #115  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:34 AM
M.C. Gusto M.C. Gusto is offline
 
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pfffff. I hate these threads, always ending up in the same place at the end........kennel blindness.

Saying that field trialing is not hunting or retriever trialing is not like hunting is ridiculous. Coverdog trials are all pretty much held in wild grouse and woodcock woods. The majority of the time the winner is the dog with the most finds. Here in the prairie its the same thing, the Dominion, Sask Chicken Championship, Broomhill, Circle Montana etc etc are all held on wild birds. Usually its the dog with the most finds and the dog that shows no quit and hunts the entire time out.
Retriever trials, you've got great dogs with above average marking ability and speed and brains to win.
ALL THAT TRANSLATES TO HUNTING

Covey Ridge I do know what your talking about and have seen it first hand, this is almost always at throw down trials. On wild bird trials different story.

So like I said, if you want to see real stats look at competition events. If the dog cant get it done, its not bred. HUGE money at stake and people are breeding to win it. This competition is also why imo it will turn people off. But that's another story.
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  #116  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:42 AM
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I have a 9 year old Golden Retriever that I started on pheasants when we moved to Alberta 6 years ago. Year 1-2 birds shot over him, year 2-12 birds, year 3- 18 birds and the dog decides he will point a pheasant that holds, year 4 (when I now have guys phoning to hunt with me and my dog we have 46 birds shot over him), year 5 (and now lots of guys hunting with us) he has over 75 birds shot over him. Year 6 i lost count, but the guys who show up at the release sites with no dog generally know us well, because after we get our 2 we typically go out with 2 or 3 hunters and get their limit.

The most interesting thing is, this dog changes his tactics on pheasant according to the conditions, pointing birds in the field, flushing them in the rushes, and even cutting off a running pheasant in a hedge row and pushing the bird back to me.....I claim no credit....he is just a natural.

But....Pointing Golden Retrievers .....?
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  #117  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:03 PM
tatonka2 tatonka2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto View Post
pfffff. I hate these threads, always ending up in the same place at the end........kennel blindness.

Saying that field trialing is not hunting or retriever trialing is not like hunting is ridiculous. Coverdog trials are all pretty much held in wild grouse and woodcock woods. The majority of the time the winner is the dog with the most finds. Here in the prairie its the same thing, the Dominion, Sask Chicken Championship, Broomhill, Circle Montana etc etc are all held on wild birds. Usually its the dog with the most finds and the dog that shows no quit and hunts the entire time out.
Retriever trials, you've got great dogs with above average marking ability and speed and brains to win.
ALL THAT TRANSLATES TO HUNTING

Covey Ridge I do know what your talking about and have seen it first hand, this is almost always at throw down trials. On wild bird trials different story.

So like I said, if you want to see real stats look at competition events. If the dog cant get it done, its not bred. HUGE money at stake and people are breeding to win it. This competition is also why imo it will turn people off. But that's another story.
I guess my experiences, conversations with field trialers, etc. over the past 40 plus years are just ridiculous then.
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  #118  
Old 02-19-2018, 03:39 PM
Diesel_wiesel Diesel_wiesel is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
Considering no dogs are "very good" at grouse, I find the whole thing a little strange. I don't doubt the little Springers are awesome Pheasant dogs but a 2 for geese is a bit of a stretch. As mentioned above, not all Labradors are suitable for a full hunt of large honkers.

As much as I love Labradors, a well trained Chessy is a superior hunter at nearly every game. Overall they are just closer to their roots and everyone I have met are just full of hunt and determination. If not for their possessive and sometimes unpredictable personality they would be the ultimate gun dog, a part from looks of course.
I almost agree , I would choose a chessie every time, granted they do take more training in the obedience department, but hands down when it comes to a hunting field type dog natural abilities
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  #119  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:36 PM
Sundog57 Sundog57 is offline
 
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Everyone's got an opinion just like everyone's got an ***hole.
1. Plan to buy a dog from a reputable kennel that breeds proven hunting, hunt test or trialling dogs. Don't sweat the puppy price, it's going to be expensive, but not as expensive as buying a cheap puppy from a back yard breeder with health or joint issues.
2. Notwithstanding anything else you might see here, I have been hunting over field trial dogs for years and they are superior in almost every imaginable way, IF they have had adequate work and if they are handled by someone who knows what they are doing.
However, buying a trial bred dog and thinking that it's going to learn on it's own is akin to giving a sixteen year old kid an Ducati 1200 and thinking that's going to turn out alright. Buying a show dog and thinking it's going to hunt is like buying a plain Honda Civic and thinking you're going to turn it into a 700hp race car - it can be done, but it will be easier and cheaper to buy something built (or in this case bred) for purpose.
3. Think about what is an acceptable standard for your dog's performance. Recognise that a hunting dog is a huge commitment. You have to train and you have to train and then you have to train some more.
4. Go hunt with a few guys, check out some pointy dogs, some spaniels, some retrievers. One of them will catch your eye. If you don't know anyone, check out a few dog clubs. I can guarantee you won't have any trouble getting people to talk about their dogs - it's getting them to shut up that's the trick.
5. Think about what kind of hunting you do in the majority and in the minority - most pointy dogs aren't going to swim a couple of hundred yards to pick up a duck - most retrievers will flush birds, but it is the exceptional one who will always stay within range when Rusty the Rooster is booting it for the next county - some folks will tell you that Springers are the hunting dog equivalent of Border Collies - if you don't know what I mean, talk to someone who has a Border Collie, they will have many amusing stories. (Read point 3 again)
6. Then buy a Lab (Just kidding... sort of)

Last edited by Sundog57; 02-19-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundog57 View Post

6. Then buy a Lab (Just kidding... sort of)
And that is exactly what I did
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