Best Dog for Pheasants - Lab or Pointer?

[Diesel_wiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For the first fall, it would not be a good idea, I am thinking once your pup has a season or two of hunting behind him, and he has figured out his role. With two experienced dogs, it would be interesting to watch two different approaches in the same terrain, on the same birds.

As for the hunting/testing debate, there are similarities, and there are differences. I only have experience with the NAVHDA, and I am learning just by being involved as a volunteer. Some handlers have well trained dogs, but they set up poorly to flush the bird, and the result is that there is no safe shot, and an opportunity is lost. I see the same thing when hunting, some hunters do not put themselves into a good shooting position when the dog finds a bird, and the result is no shot on the bird. The difference is that in the testing, if the dog creeps or breaks momentarily because of poor training, the dog fails the test, while a hunter that is properly positioned can still kill the bird if his dog does make a small error. I am primarily a hunter, so testing isn't as important to me as it is to a breeder that wants his dog to score the highest amount possible, so my priority is keeping my dog safe, and being able to read my dog, and then set up, so that there is a good shot opportunity. And I do find, that the longer that I hunt over a dog, the better I get at reading what he is sensing, and what the bird is doing, so we can hunt more effectively as a unit.

To my way of thinking
there is just something magical about a man and his dog working as one or as a team , a well seasoned dog and man the bond is amazing,
I could stand back and watch these things all hunting season,

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by sns2

Elk, for that pups first fall, I will be going in a different direction than you. When you find birds, you can call me and tell me where you are. I will head in that direction toot sweet! I will also return that favor. But Chief will only be a precocious little pup, so he won't need the distraction of playmates, and my focus will be on keeping him within gun range. Now, if we arrive shortly after the bird box has done his duty, then all bets are off, and I will be happy to have him scoop any and/or all birds that Butch is pointing. Butch won't be happy, but he is so playful he likely won't bite, though he may give you the stinkeye.
As you say, it should be interesting.

Hunting pointers and flushing dogs together as a brace seems illogical to me, but hey I'm Ukrainian.

Pup will only be 7 months in September so a great time for training but probably not much more for year one. At that age they have the go but not the muscle or bone structure to back it up. The pup I am training now is 6 months and I have to reel her in or she'd be climbing trees and jumping out.

It is amazing what they pick up from other dogs and how quickly. I will only let her witness what my male does exceptionally well and will let her develop her other skills without his assistance. I certainly wouldn't allow her around some one else's dog until set in her ways.

An absolute necessity (I am sticking to this story no matter the argument) is a new 28 gauge SXS to train the little guy under. Your story may vary, but i told the wife that I was training this pup mainly for upland hunting and because of her British heritage she might not respond well to North American type shotguns.

When the parcel arrived and I pulled the slender Italian out of the case she again questioned my motives.

I looked her right in the eye (eye contact is very important) and said without a blink; "Do you want her to chew the furniture?"

She answered "no" of course.

I followed up with, "Loud guns of cheap manufacture make a dog nervous. Nervous dogs chew things. Maybe you should just let me handle this."

She must be okay with it because she hasn't said a word for over two weeks.

[LCCFisherman]

My Toller will be 10 months by that time... see you in the pheasant fields gents!

[sns2]

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

My Toller will be 10 months by that time... see you in the pheasant fields gents!

Are you down south?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[LCCFisherman]

SW yup

[Sundog57]

For those who say you can't run flushers - particularly labs (I don't have any experience training Springers) with pointy dogs. You're dead wrong.
It comes back to training. If you go by the Bill Hillman philosophy and start out by teaching sit! and then reinforce it in everything that you do, it's quite doable. My last three Labs of the nine I have had so far, would/will, sit on a whistle even while Rusty runs down a corn row in full view. I had to do this because at my advanced age I can't run with the dogs when they get up a full head of steam anymore. I whistle, they sit, I catch up and release them. Eventually the rooster goes up (in range) and the gun goes bang and all other things being equal the rooster goes flop.
Seems to work.
Hunting with my friends' pointy dogs, I make my dogs heel for honour. They trial so they have to know how to honour anyway, this just reinforces things. Sure comes in handy if your rooster folds up on the other side of an irrigation canal.
As for those who have negative things to say about "american" style dogs, or trial dogs.... (Speaking of Labs here)
Trial dogs have to meet several criteria:
1. they have to be physically sound and very athletic
2. they have to love birds
3. they have to have big hearts and lots of boldness - they can't back down from big water
4. they have to be biddable - they have to be able to be trained
5. they have to be sociable - most competitors will not put up with an aggressive dog
I assume that the same goes for other trialling breeds
People have been selectively breeding for these qualities for decades.
Not sure what's not here to like if you are willing to do your part.

[densa44]

Those dogs are trained every day sometimes all year. Some of my retired friends hauled their trailers to Texas and trained their dogs (sometimes 4 or more) with their American doggy friends. To compete at the highest level the dog has to be an outstanding animal.

My friend is a guide at one of those large US shooting preserves and he uses both pointers and flushers, the flushers heel as has been said and flush the bird that has been pointed. I think that they make the retrieve too. He has a couple of our dogs (PPs) and I think that they hunt on their own.

He gave our son a small very happy spaniel that I think would do the flushing part just fine and I'd love to give it a try, the problem is I've run both out of hand and friends. I have 5 pps that I run in teams, I don't carry a gun if I have help, I have a full time job running the dogs. The spaniel works very close, so I think that I could walk up with him "hunting" the older PPs are very steady but I've never tried this.

I've hunted for many years behind a lab but those days are long gone.

With the PPs I get a "controlled" flush if there is such a thing. I can tell exactly when and where the rooster will appear. I was never sure with my labs.

Like others here I'm getting spring fever, the huns are back and on the lawn!

Does anyone else hunt with a "brace" of dogs pointer and flusher? How did you train them?

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Sundog57

For those who say you can't run flushers - particularly labs (I don't have any experience training Springers) with pointy dogs. You're dead wrong.
It comes back to training. If you go by the Bill Hillman philosophy and start out by teaching sit! and then reinforce it in everything that you do, it's quite doable. My last three Labs of the nine I have had so far, would/will, sit on a whistle even while Rusty runs down a corn row in full view. I had to do this because at my advanced age I can't run with the dogs when they get up a full head of steam anymore. I whistle, they sit, I catch up and release them. Eventually the rooster goes up (in range) and the gun goes bang and all other things being equal the rooster goes flop.
Seems to work.
Hunting with my friends' pointy dogs, I make my dogs heel for honour. They trial so they have to know how to honour anyway, this just reinforces things. Sure comes in handy if your rooster folds up on the other side of an irrigation canal.
As for those who have negative things to say about "american" style dogs, or trial dogs.... (Speaking of Labs here)
Trial dogs have to meet several criteria:
1. they have to be physically sound and very athletic
2. they have to love birds
3. they have to have big hearts and lots of boldness - they can't back down from big water
4. they have to be biddable - they have to be able to be trained
5. they have to be sociable - most competitors will not put up with an aggressive dog
I assume that the same goes for other trialling breeds
People have been selectively breeding for these qualities for decades.
Not sure what's not here to like if you are willing to do your part.

I didn't read anything negative about American or Trial dogs except for the fact that many of us don't want them.

You asked and answered your own question in your last line.

Everybody would like to have an NHL hockey player or an Olympic athlete for a son or daughter until that alarm clock rings for the thousandth time at 4 AM on your day off and you have to drive across the country for another tournament on the first weekend of the Whitetail rut.

People that enjoy training dogs and especially high performance dogs should by all means find an appropriate bloodline with proven hunt and trial history. There is no more a rewarding pass time but like you say it takes time and commitment.

Unfortunately many of us do not have the time and other commitments make continuous dog work impossible AND we have no interest in making dog training a pass time anyway. If you are a fan of Bill Hillmann you will hear the term conditioning more often than training. Conditioning takes time and can be extremely frustrating. That part is not shown on his you tube videos.

The vast majority of outdoorsmen are weekend warriors. There are 8 to 10 weekends in bird season and then they move on to big game. Some of those weekends are for sharing time with the wife, kids and others so believe it or not, many only get out bird hunting a half dozen times a season. Summer is for camping, family and making up enough brownie points so hunting and fishing is even possible without divorce.

As far as training goes beyond obedience; they throw a few dummies in the local pond and let the animal run around in the field mimicking chasing down birds.

What they need is an awesome family pet that can retrieve and flush a few birds on occasion. This is why the British and English lines are so popular. They love to go for a drive in the truck and a hunt in the bush as much as any dog but are perfectly content with a quick run after work if that is all time allows.

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I agree on both traning and breeding. I have hunted over quite a few dogs, and I have shot over many more during NAVHDA tests, and some dogs have much more natural ability, and learn much faster than others. Some dogs become great hunters with lesser skilled trainers, and some dogs will never be better than average, regardless of the training. My personal weakness is a lack of experience in training dogs, but I was fortunate to have a pup that learns quick, and has a lot of natural ability, so despite my shortcomings as a trainer, he is a very productive hunter. Other dogs of the same breed that I have hunted over did not produce as well despite months of professional training. They are more obedient, and they look more polished, but there weren't as productive at finding and working birds. As far as the pointer or retriever preference, if I was hunting primarily waterfowl, I would have a retriever, but for pheasants, sharptails, and Hungarian Partridge, I prefer a pointer. The more open the terrain, the more I prefer the pointer as you can have multiple dogs covering a lot of area, and the handlers don't have to be in shooting range of all of the dogs. I have hunted over as many as four pointers and we just watched the dogs, and when one went on point, they would remain until we walked over into range to flush the bird. Of course a retriever can be effective on open terrain, but I prefer not having to keep within shotgun range of the dog in open terrain. And in tight terrain either pointers or retrievers can also be effective, and I prefer to keep the dog much closer in that situation, regardless of the breed. I haven't hunted over both pointers and retrievers at the same time very often, so I am looking forward to hunting my dog alongside the pup sns2 is waiting for. It should be interesting.

Because like trial dogs, the German system won’t breed a dog that doesn’t perform to their standards. That’s why you have a good dog.

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by Sundog57

For those who say you can't run flushers - particularly labs (I don't have any experience training Springers) with pointy dogs. You're dead wrong.
It comes back to training. If you go by the Bill Hillman philosophy and start out by teaching sit! and then reinforce it in everything that you do, it's quite doable. My last three Labs of the nine I have had so far, would/will, sit on a whistle even while Rusty runs down a corn row in full view. I had to do this because at my advanced age I can't run with the dogs when they get up a full head of steam anymore. I whistle, they sit, I catch up and release them. Eventually the rooster goes up (in range) and the gun goes bang and all other things being equal the rooster goes flop.
Seems to work.
Hunting with my friends' pointy dogs, I make my dogs heel for honour. They trial so they have to know how to honour anyway, this just reinforces things. Sure comes in handy if your rooster folds up on the other side of an irrigation canal.
As for those who have negative things to say about "american" style dogs, or trial dogs.... (Speaking of Labs here)
Trial dogs have to meet several criteria:
1. they have to be physically sound and very athletic
2. they have to love birds
3. they have to have big hearts and lots of boldness - they can't back down from big water
4. they have to be biddable - they have to be able to be trained
5. they have to be sociable - most competitors will not put up with an aggressive dog
I assume that the same goes for other trialling breeds
People have been selectively breeding for these qualities for decades.
Not sure what's not here to like if you are willing to do your part.

Exactly

[catnthehat]

We hunt flushers with pointers every year and thoroughly enjoy it and do do the dogs!
Our crew ranges from under 30 to hovering around 70, everybody has fun!
Cat

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I didn't read anything negative about American or Trial dogs except for the fact that many of us don't want them.

You asked and answered your own question in your last line.

Everybody would like to have an NHL hockey player or an Olympic athlete for a son or daughter until that alarm clock rings for the thousandth time at 4 AM on your day off and you have to drive across the country for another tournament on the first weekend of the Whitetail rut.

People that enjoy training dogs and especially high performance dogs should by all means find an appropriate bloodline with proven hunt and trial history. There is no more a rewarding pass time but like you say it takes time and commitment.

Unfortunately many of us do not have the time and other commitments make continuous dog work impossible AND we have no interest in making dog training a pass time anyway. If you are a fan of Bill Hillmann you will hear the term conditioning more often than training. Conditioning takes time and can be extremely frustrating. That part is not shown on his you tube videos.

The vast majority of outdoorsmen are weekend warriors. There are 8 to 10 weekends in bird season and then they move on to big game. Some of those weekends are for sharing time with the wife, kids and others so believe it or not, many only get out bird hunting a half dozen times a season. Summer is for camping, family and making up enough brownie points so hunting and fishing is even possible without divorce.

As far as training goes beyond obedience; they throw a few dummies in the local pond and let the animal run around in the field mimicking chasing down birds.

What they need is an awesome family pet that can retrieve and flush a few birds on occasion. This is why the British and English lines are so popular. They love to go for a drive in the truck and a hunt in the bush as much as any dog but are perfectly content with a quick run after work if that is all time allows.

I think your trying to say a trial dog is too hardcore for the average guy that occasionally hunts or likes to have a dog as a house pet? If so that is the most common internet misconception about trial dogs.
The point I’m making is if you buy a dog from a competitive kennel (winning blood) your chances of getting a great dog increases. Wether or not you choose to take him to the next level is up to you.

Hunting a pointer with a retriever is not hard at all and is easier than you would expect. Main thing is that the Pinter has to be dead broke for it to work.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

I think your trying to say a trial dog is too hardcore for the average guy that occasionally hunts or likes to have a dog as a house pet? If so that is the most common internet misconception about trial dogs.
The point I’m making is if you buy a dog from a competitive kennel (winning blood) your chances of getting a great dog increases. Wether or not you choose to take him to the next level is up to you.

Hunting a pointer with a retriever is not hard at all and is easier than you would expect. Main thing is that the Pinter has to be dead broke for it to work.

The point I was trying to make is that I have owned both and much prefer the English lines. American field dogs are constantly hunting and like to on the move looking for game. I spend more time fly fishing than bird hunting and I like to be able to concentrate on my fishing without keeping a constant eye on my dog. When I turn around to see where my dog is, he is sitting right there watching me, every time. This also applies to camping, hiking, bird watching, berry picking, or any other outdoor activities. Every field dog I have owned would rather be training or hunting so any activity outside of that was a bit of a disappointment.

The most common misconception on the internet is that English and British dogs can't hunt and this is because our internet is USA biased. Most every Labrador is born with some bird sense and most all will naturally retrieve. How they develop beyond that is up to the trainer more so than the dog.

My job requires that I go to several different houses everyday. Obviously, I see a lot of dogs and obviously a good many of them are Labrador type dogs. People are simply too busy to look after the high strung ones and their houses and yards look like they are 50 year old rental properties. Carpets ripped to shreds, door casings gone, doors scratched all to pieces, holes all over the yard, fences chewed, etc., etc.,

It's not the dogs fault, it's the pedigree whether you want to believe it or not. Most of these people would be better served with a cat but they continue to purchase field bred Labradors.

Every year we see news reports of people that can't handle their dogs. Pit Bulls, Dobermans and Shepards are the most abused.

"I can't believe my dog bit that kid."
"I can't believe my dog killed that other dog."
"I can't believe my dog ate that cat."

Again, not the dog's fault. It's the people that can't handle their dog and it is the dog that suffers the most.

Anyway, the thread is not about that. It is about Pointers vs Labradors for Pheasant. I like them both, but choose the Labradors because they fit my life style, the other kind of birds I hunt and the terrain found in the places I like to go. I am a laid back guy so I choose a laid back blood line of dog. You can choose what ever you like.

[bakerman]

When I was a kid we always had Irish setters.They were great dogs for pheasants,huns and would also swim out for ducks and geese, certain types of diving ducks they didn't like to pick up much but they would at least bring them to shore. Ours were great family dogs to. I haven't seen a setter that hunts in years but sure do miss them, I think most of them are just show dogs now.

[The Spank]

I used to work on a buddy’s commercial pheasant hunting operation in the mid to late 80’s. He had both labs and pointers (English?) if my memory serves. The pointers never got used so after a few years languishing in the kennels he gave them away. They were fun to hunt over but the paying hunters didn’t like them even though they were handled by my buddy, not the hunters themselves. The hunters always wanted the labs? It worked out well for me as it was a great place to work my lab for upland experience. In two seasons he had 12,000 birds released/shot over him. You sure see how well a lab can perform on upland when you have that kind of training and bird numbers available to him.