11,000 AHS workers to lose their jobs

[KegRiver]

The whole point of my first post on this topic was to show that there is no savings.
The workers get lower wages, the service is not as good and it costs taxpayers more.

It's true, I did not get paid by the government, but my company did, so ultimately it was tax dollars that paid my salary.

The left tries to deny the truth. Those $1,000,000 executives are paid for by our tax dollars if the company they work for is contracted to do government work.

This will be the case here, the government will still pay for the work to be done even though the workers will be paid by the contractor.

The big difference will be, government waste will be replaced by company greed. And we add a middleman to the system.

We all know that each middle man in any supply chain adds cost to the final consumer. And each middle man reduces the influence the consumer has over the initial supplier.

When government jobs go private, when you are not satisfied you no longer have a government department accountable to you, to talk to.
Now you have to seek satisfaction from a corporation that could care less what you want.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Hal and elk:

Where does Shandro have investments again? Oh that’s right....

Pay attention. It won’t cost you or me any less. Just changes where the money ends up, UCP ministers and donors instead of the people doing the work.

My point exactly!

I am all for saving money and increasing efficiency. You'll find you'll have a more satisfied workforce with less mental health issues if everyone feels productive. But this isn't it and won't be. We won't save money, we will lose money.

[zabbo]

Just have to say, "This thread sure has gone sideways." It's become polarized between pro and con union workers. Really easy to pick out which is which. As I see it, unions have done many great things for ALL Albertan's working for wages. Hard to say what things might look like right now had they not existed. That said, these same organizations, at least in some cases have become self serving monsters. I think of Canada post as a good example. Go on strike about the end of November and hold the country to ransom right at Christmas. How about now? They pretty much did themselves out of a job. Heard of Can Par, UPS and how many other courier services? I get pretty much nothing but junk mail through the post office. That and government stuff, because, well it's Canada Post. A few years back I did a short stint with the I.B.E.W. Worked at Fort Mac and I really have no complaints. Decent job, good bunch of guys. One thing did catch my attention though. More and more of the jobs on the board demanded a course called, Code of Excellence. I took it and I have to say it was very eye opening. The general gist was, get your tail to work every day. Be in good shape to work and work when you're there. Basically, do a good job. Then it got to why this course became a reality. Somewhere back around the late fifties early sixties, the union had pretty much every job in the province of Alberta. But, they got a whole bunch too big for their britches and stared refusing work. As in, that is a crap job, we aren't sending our brothers there. Doesn't pay enough, bad working conditions, too far out in the boonies etc. Problem was, the contractors still had to get the work done. They started hiring guys that were hungry enough to got to these sites and before long there was another "kind of union" called CLAC. More and more companies started using CLAC and it just about destroyed the IBEW here in Alberta. Don't recall the exact numbers, but suffice it to say, the IBEW does not do a huge amount of work in the province today. This was not a made in Alberta thing, it came from the head office in the U S of A.

A couple of the biggest issues I personally have with unions is the mentality of some members. That's not in my contract and I'm not doing it. Also the fact that seniority seems to make some people almost godlike. It doesn't matter that you came to work when nobody else would, you bust your tail all day while another stands around doing nothing. Personal production doesn't really seem to count. Seniority does. Code of excellence is trying to do away with these attitudes, but it's a slow process. I know there are at least a couple teachers involved in this discussion and I'm not picking on you, but there are some pretty bad teachers out there (I had a couple in school) and it's almost impossible to get rid them because the union defends them regardless. Honestly there are lots of great teachers out there as well (had a couple of them also) and they should probably be recognized more than they are.

To get back to the original topic, health care in Alberta is bloated to say the least. I mentioned in a previous post it consumes about 42 percent of the Alberta budget. That is far more per capita than any other province in the country. Even with that kind of cash flow we still have some of the longest wait times for may procedures. Seems to me there is something realllly wrong. I can't say for sure this will solve the problem, but at least somebody is trying something different.

Well flame away, but before you do please take a little time to think it over.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Just have to say, "This thread sure has gone sideways." It's become polarized between pro and con union workers. Really easy to pick out which is which. As I see it, unions have done many great things for ALL Albertan's working for wages. Hard to say what things might look like right now had they not existed. That said, these same organizations, at least in some cases have become self serving monsters. I think of Canada post as a good example. Go on strike about the end of November and hold the country to ransom right at Christmas. How about now? They pretty much did themselves out of a job. Heard of Can Par, UPS and how many other courier services? I get pretty much nothing but junk mail through the post office. That and government stuff, because, well it's Canada Post. A few years back I did a short stint with the I.B.E.W. Worked at Fort Mac and I really have no complaints. Decent job, good bunch of guys. One thing did catch my attention though. More and more of the jobs on the board demanded a course called, Code of Excellence. I took it and I have to say it was very eye opening. The general gist was, get your tail to work every day. Be in good shape to work and work when you're there. Basically, do a good job. Then it got to why this course became a reality. Somewhere back around the late fifties early sixties, the union had pretty much every job in the province of Alberta. But, they got a whole bunch too big for their britches and stared refusing work. As in, that is a crap job, we aren't sending our brothers there. Doesn't pay enough, bad working conditions, too far out in the boonies etc. Problem was, the contractors still had to get the work done. They started hiring guys that were hungry enough to got to these sites and before long there was another "kind of union" called CLAC. More and more companies started using CLAC and it just about destroyed the IBEW here in Alberta. Don't recall the exact numbers, but suffice it to say, the IBEW does not do a huge amount of work in the province today. This was not a made in Alberta thing, it came from the head office in the U S of A.

A couple of the biggest issues I personally have with unions is the mentality of some members. That's not in my contract and I'm not doing it. Also the fact that seniority seems to make some people almost godlike. It doesn't matter that you came to work when nobody else would, you bust your tail all day while another stands around doing nothing. Personal production doesn't really seem to count. Seniority does. Code of excellence is trying to do away with these attitudes, but it's a slow process. I know there are at least a couple teachers involved in this discussion and I'm not picking on you, but there are some pretty bad teachers out there (I had a couple in school) and it's almost impossible to get rid them because the union defends them regardless. Honestly there are lots of great teachers out there as well (had a couple of them also) and they should probably be recognized more than they are.

To get back to the original topic, health care in Alberta is bloated to say the least. I mentioned in a previous post it consumes about 42 percent of the Alberta budget. That is far more per capita than any other province in the country. Even with that kind of cash flow we still have some of the longest wait times for may procedures. Seems to me there is something realllly wrong. I can't say for sure this will solve the problem, but at least somebody is trying something different.

Well flame away, but before you do please take a little time to think it over.

Great post.

Although I don't share your optimism regards the outcome of this plan I do agree with everything else you say.

My minimal experience with unions supports what you say.

I've worked under four different unions over the years. None improved my life any but I do see where they did make a big difference at one time.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Hal and elk:

Where does Shandro have investments again? Oh that’s right....

Pay attention. It won’t cost you or me any less. Just changes where the money ends up, UCP ministers and donors instead of the people doing the work.

People don't want to hear that, 3blade. Most AO members want to live by the mantra that public sector is beyond bad, utterly wasteful, and that all the roles filled by such people could be done twice as efficiently, and at half the price if filled by someone who is not a part of a union.

It's funny. Earlier in the thread guys were arguing about highway contracts. I drive both the Whitemud and Henday almost daily, so see the construction all summer long. That work is completed by private firms, and it is the only place I have ever seen 3 or 4 guys standing around watching one guy slowly move a shovel, but even I know that is just a snapshot picture of what they do in the course of a day.

I have no issue of looking for efficiencies at all. There are lots to be had, but in all the trumpeting of cuts, it is always the little guys who get the shaft while the area that is bloated (middle and upper management), escape unscathed.

In Education, if you gave me an axe, trees would fall really, really fast. 95% of the people working in the shiny school board buildings, or for Alberta Education, have teaching degrees. Hiring of new teachers would cease immediately. Almost all consultants, department managers etc... would be going straight back into the classroom. The older ones would be offered an early retirement package to get them out, so they could be replaced in a few years with brand new teachers who are at the bottom of the scale making 2/3 of what they are making. In my career, I have never received any tangible help from these people in any way, shape or form. Yet, they churn out mounds of new make-work projects for classroom teachers that supposedly improve educational practices, with the emphasis on supposedly. I am sure that healthcare has similar issues, and could be improved in a similar fashion.

Leave the people who push the plows alone. Make the armies of straw bosses go back to pushing the plows. But, 99% of people on AO want to hurt the plow pushers. I can't follow that logic at all.

We are pushing $100 Billion in debt in Alberta. That sure as hell doesn't come from nurses, teachers, and other public sector workers being overpaid by a few thousand bucks a year.

We are in the absolute mess we are in because of world oil supply/demand beyond our control, and an inability to get the product we have to markets where we can get a fair price, as a result of a treasonous gov't in Ottaw that is behest to powerful special interest groups funded by the American oil industry that benefits tremendously from our cheap oil being landlocked. Follow the money people.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Just have to say, "This thread sure has gone sideways." It's become polarized between pro and con union workers. Really easy to pick out which is which. As I see it, unions have done many great things for ALL Albertan's working for wages. Hard to say what things might look like right now had they not existed. That said, these same organizations, at least in some cases have become self serving monsters. I think of Canada post as a good example. Go on strike about the end of November and hold the country to ransom right at Christmas. How about now? They pretty much did themselves out of a job. Heard of Can Par, UPS and how many other courier services? I get pretty much nothing but junk mail through the post office. That and government stuff, because, well it's Canada Post. A few years back I did a short stint with the I.B.E.W. Worked at Fort Mac and I really have no complaints. Decent job, good bunch of guys. One thing did catch my attention though. More and more of the jobs on the board demanded a course called, Code of Excellence. I took it and I have to say it was very eye opening. The general gist was, get your tail to work every day. Be in good shape to work and work when you're there. Basically, do a good job. Then it got to why this course became a reality. Somewhere back around the late fifties early sixties, the union had pretty much every job in the province of Alberta. But, they got a whole bunch too big for their britches and stared refusing work. As in, that is a crap job, we aren't sending our brothers there. Doesn't pay enough, bad working conditions, too far out in the boonies etc. Problem was, the contractors still had to get the work done. They started hiring guys that were hungry enough to got to these sites and before long there was another "kind of union" called CLAC. More and more companies started using CLAC and it just about destroyed the IBEW here in Alberta. Don't recall the exact numbers, but suffice it to say, the IBEW does not do a huge amount of work in the province today. This was not a made in Alberta thing, it came from the head office in the U S of A.

A couple of the biggest issues I personally have with unions is the mentality of some members. That's not in my contract and I'm not doing it. Also the fact that seniority seems to make some people almost godlike. It doesn't matter that you came to work when nobody else would, you bust your tail all day while another stands around doing nothing. Personal production doesn't really seem to count. Seniority does. Code of excellence is trying to do away with these attitudes, but it's a slow process. I know there are at least a couple teachers involved in this discussion and I'm not picking on you, but there are some pretty bad teachers out there (I had a couple in school) and it's almost impossible to get rid them because the union defends them regardless. Honestly there are lots of great teachers out there as well (had a couple of them also) and they should probably be recognized more than they are.

To get back to the original topic, health care in Alberta is bloated to say the least. I mentioned in a previous post it consumes about 42 percent of the Alberta budget. That is far more per capita than any other province in the country. Even with that kind of cash flow we still have some of the longest wait times for may procedures. Seems to me there is something realllly wrong. I can't say for sure this will solve the problem, but at least somebody is trying something different.

Well flame away, but before you do please take a little time to think it over.

This is a good post.

We do pay the most per capita, and have some of the worst outcomes. However, every time my family or I have had to access medical care, we come away impressed, and grateful for the front line workers looking after us under what seem to be very stressful conditions.

Just so you know, almost all the teachers I choose to associate with, and every principal I have ever worked for would agree with you about the difficulty of getting rid of the brutal teachers because they certainly do exist.

[.257Weatherby]

Originally Posted by Jokey75

Got any proof of that?

He read it on the Internet.....
Proof enough.
Rob

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

People don't want to hear that, 3blade. Most AO members want to live by the mantra that public sector is beyond bad, utterly wasteful, and that all the roles filled by such people could be done twice as efficiently, and at half the price if filled by someone who is not a part of a union.

It's funny. Earlier in the thread guys were arguing about highway contracts. I drive both the Whitemud and Henday almost daily, so see the construction all summer long. That work is completed by private firms, and it is the only place I have ever seen 3 or 4 guys standing around watching one guy slowly move a shovel.

I have no issue of looking for efficiencies at all. There are lots to be had, but in all the trumpeting of cuts, it is always the little guys who get the shaft while the area that is bloated (middle and upper management), escape unscathed.

In Education, if you gave me an axe, trees would fall really, really fast. 95% of the people working in the shiny school board buildings, or for Alberta Education, have teaching degrees. Hiring of new teachers would cease immediately. Almost all consultants, department managers etc... would be going straight back into the classroom. The older ones would be offered an early retirement package to get them out, so they could be replaced in a few years with brand new teachers who are at the bottom of the scale making 2/3 of what they are making. In my career, I have never received any tangible help from these people in any way, shape or form. Yet, they churn out mounds of new make-work projects for classroom teachers that supposedly improve educational practices, with the emphasis on supposedly. I am sure that healthcare has similar issues, and could be improved in a similar fashion.

Leave the people who push the plows alone. Make the armies of straw bosses go back to pushing the plows. But, 99% of people on AO want to hurt the plow pushers. I can't follow that logic at all.

We are pushing $100 Billion in debt in Alberta. That sure as hell doesn't come from nurses, teachers, and other public sector workers being overpaid by a few thousand bucks a year.

We are in the absolute mess we are in because of world oil supply/demand beyond our control, and an inability to get the product we have to markets where we can get a fair price, as a result of a treasonous gov't in Ottaw that is behest to powerful special interest groups funded by the American oil industry that benefits tremendously from our cheap oil being landlocked. Follow the money people.

I had to laugh when I read about the three or four guys watching one guy work, way back my father used to call the Dept of Highways , the Dept of Holidays with one guy working and five or six leaning on their shovels. Back then they were government workers in Saskatchewan.
So according to my father only three or four watching would be an improvement. Lol
As for you and your coworkers ever being able to deal with the middle management positions, that won't ever happen. They are so well entrenched, that even your union wouldn't dare to try and change that.
And I have heard many times that the rank and file has no say, the union does what it wants. Well that is what happens when the union goes from being representatives of the workers to big business with political affiliations. And it's not just public sector unions, Unifor and Dias are perhaps the best examples as far as corruption goes. They openly campaigned against the pipelines that would have brought employment to their own members. Dias is now one of Trudeau's minions, that is helping to spread propaganda, and to destroy our oil and gas industry.
And it isn't just the federal government trying to destroy our Alberta industry, the NDP played their own part in that even though Notley tried to convince us that she actually supported our oil and gas, in a last ditch effort to get reelected.
And you are correct, our debt doesn’t come from teachers and nurses being overpaid , but Notley shutting down the coal fired plants and messing with the power contracts will cost us billions. That middle and upper management, you mentioned, as well as the anti oil consultants that Notley hired are costing us a lot , with no value added, but regardless of who the government is, they won't dare gut the upper and middle management of Healthcare or Education, or Highways or infrastructure.
And the investors that the NDP drove out of Alberta are not likely to come back anytime soon. And with Trudeau making sure we're can't get our product to market, we aren't going to make that lost money back, and are only going to lose more. So where does that leave our provincial government, they can't increase revenue, so their only alternative is to cut costs, and as we know, manure flows downhill, so most of the impact will be on front line workers.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

...So where does that leave our provincial government, they can't increase revenue, so their only alternative is to cut costs, and as we know, manure flows downhill, so most of the impact will be on front line workers.

There actually is a way to address our problems... a PST. I don't want it anymore than you do, but it is really the elephant in the room. Every other province has one, and 45 of 50 states in the US have one. It is a broad based tax that equally spreads the pain amongst citizens, as opposed to concentrating it on the backs of a small group of popular whipping boys.

As for people saying that they took pay cuts, well they had every opportunity to choose a profession in the public sector that offered greater stability.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I had to laugh when I read about the three or four guys watching one guy work, way back my father used to call the Dept of Highways , the Dept of Holidays with one guy working and five or six leaning on their shovels. Back then they were government workers in Saskatchewan.
So according to my father only three or four watching would be an improvement. Lol
As for you and your coworkers ever being able to deal with the middle management positions, that won't ever happen. They are so well entrenched, that even your union wouldn't dare to try and change that.
And I have heard many times that the rank and file has no say, the union does what it wants. Well that is what happens when the union goes from being representatives of the workers to big business with political affiliations. And it's not just public sector unions, Unifor and Dias are perhaps the best examples as far as corruption goes. They openly campaigned against the pipelines that would have brought employment to their own members. Dias is now one of Trudeau's minions, that is helping to spread propaganda, and to destroy our oil and gas industry.
And it isn't just the federal government trying to destroy our Alberta industry, the NDP played their own part in that even though Notley tried to convince us that she actually supported our oil and gas, in a last ditch effort to get reelected.
And you are correct, our debt doesn’t come from teachers and nurses being overpaid , but Notley shutting down the coal fired plants and messing with the power contracts will cost us billions. That middle and upper management, you mentioned, as well as the anti oil consultants that Notley hired are costing us a lot , with no value added, but regardless of who the government is, they won't dare gut the upper and middle management of Healthcare or Education, or Highways or infrastructure.
And the investors that the NDP drove out of Alberta are not likely to come back anytime soon. And with Trudeau making sure we're can't get our product to market, we aren't going to make that lost money back, and are only going to lose more. So where does that leave our provincial government, they can't increase revenue, so their only alternative is to cut costs, and as we know, manure flows downhill, so most of the impact will be on front line workers.

Exactly
There is not going to be anywhere near as much money in the future to pay for all of the perks and benefits that have been given out to public sector employees
The golden goose is cooked
So what’s the expectation? Tax the people who have weathered the storm more, or borrow money to pay for inflated salaries, or remodel the system to the future economic challenges?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

There actually is a way to address our problems... a PST. Every other province has one, and 45 of 50 states in the US have one. It is a broad based tax that equally spreads the pain amongst citizens, as opposed to concentrating it on the backs of a small group of popular whipping boys.

As for people saying that they took pay cuts, well they had every opportunity to choose a profession in the public sector that offered greater stability.

And where were all these suggestions of a PST when the private sector workers were being laid off or took rollbacks? Why is it only coming up when the public sector employees are facing the same situation?
As for the the other provinces and states with a PST, how many are still operating at a deficit? Probably most of them, because when a government sees more money coming in, they waste more. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. If you bring in a PST this year, by next year they will have wasted the money and will be increasing the PST to make up for more spending.

The real answer is to end the equalization payments, and give the money back to the provinces that it came from, but Trudeau won't allow that, because he wants to destroy Alberta.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The real answer is to end the equalization payments, but Trudeau will never allow that.

And where were all these suggestions of a PST when the private sector workers were being laid off or took rollbacks? Why is it only coming up when the public sector employees are facing the same situation?
As for the the other provinces and states with a PST, how many are still operating at a deficit? Probably most of them, because when a government sees more money coming in, they waste more. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. If you bring in a PST this year, by next year they will have wasted the money and will be increasing the PST to make up for more spending.

You have lots and lots of complaints, but next to no solutions. Further, even though you and I talk almost daily, we have never discussed a PST, so please don't infer I just came up with it. I have felt for years that it is the only solution that spreads the pain equitably.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

You have lots and lots of complaints, but next to no solutions. Further, even though you and I talk almost daily, we have never discussed a PST, so please don't infer I just came up with it. I have felt for years that it is the only solution that spreads the pain equitably.

And a PST is no solution for the reason that I stated, when the government sees more revenue, they spend more. Pretty soon we would have a 25% sales tax, like some European countries. The carbon tax is a PST on fuel and heating products, and what good has it done,?

The private sector has taken a beating, and now unfortunately, it looks like the public sector is going to suffer the same fate , unless of course the public sector is willing to accept rollbacks to allow those facing layoffs to keep their jobs.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And a PST is no solution for the reason that I stated, when the government sees more revenue, they spend more. Pretty soon we would have a 25% sales tax, like some European countries. The carbon tax is a PST on fuel and heating products, and what good has it done,?

The private sector has taken a beating, and now unfortunately, it looks like the public sector is going to suffer the same fate , unless of course the public sector is willing to accept rollbacks to keep those facing layoffs to keep their jobs.

Then make a law that PST revenue must go towards servicing/paying down debt.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

Then make a law that PST revenue must go towards servicing/paying down debt.

And to get around that. they will just borrow more from elsewhere to spend, and run up the debt even higher before applying the PST to the debt. Kind of like when I refused to donate to a certain charity , because I objected to one of their benefactors. They told me that MY money wouldn't go to that benefactor.

I am against any new taxes, because no matter which government we have, they will just spend more.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And a PST is no solution for the reason that I stated, when the government sees more revenue, they spend more. Pretty soon we would have a 25% sales tax, like some European countries. The carbon tax is a PST on fuel and heating products, and what good has it done,?

The private sector has taken a beating, and now unfortunately, it looks like the public sector is going to suffer the same fate , unless of course the public sector is willing to accept rollbacks to allow those facing layoffs to keep their jobs.

Two quick questions that I would like you to answer honestly with simply a yes or no answer. No deflecting which you are so wont to do. No discussing perks or bonuses as the vast majority of public sector workers do not have access to such things, and a great number of them do not even have the opportunity to work overtime even if they wanted to. Again, because you are so hard-headed, only yes or no. If you can't do that, please do not even bother to answer.

1) In the last 10 years, have the workers in your former department at Syncrude taken a cut to their hourly wages? Yes or no. Nothing else.

2) Do you feel that your hourly wage at Syncrude would have been what it was if none of Syncrude's competitors (i.e. Suncor, CNRL, Shell) were not unionized? Yes or no. Nothing else.

[sns2]

BTW, people. Elk11 and I argue like hell all the time about unions and gov't. LOL

[KegRiver]

A pst may be a possible solution but as much as it pains me to say it, I have to agree with Elk this time.

I have no faith in this government spending it wisely. Instead I expect it would be used to buy more votes.

I would like to think that cutting bloated upper management positions would do more but even that is doubtful. And not likely to ever happen.

I really don't see any solutions, but cutting front line workers or farming out their positions at this time seems to me to be the last thing we should be doing.

If covid is even half as bad as we've been told, experimenting now could leave us in a very bad position.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by sns2

BTW, people. Elk11 and I argue like hell all the time about unions and gov't. LOL

He can be a real cactus of a human but he does argue reasonably.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by sns2

Two quick questions that I would like you to answer honestly with simply a yes or no answer. No deflecting which you are so wont to do. No discussing perks or bonuses as the vast majority of public sector workers do not have access to such things, and a great number of them do not even have the opportunity to work overtime even if they wanted to. Again, because you are so hard-headed, only yes or no. If you can't do that, please do not even bother to answer.

1) In the last 10 years, have the workers in your former department at Syncrude taken a cut to their hourly wages? Yes or no. Nothing else.

2) Do you feel that your hourly wage at Syncrude would have been what it was if none of Syncrude's competitors (i.e. Suncor, CNRL, Shell) were not unionized? Yes or no. Nothing else.

Ask about the pension the retirees of Syncrude get and its relation to unions...

[hal53]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

Ask about the pension the retirees of Syncrude get and its relation to unions...

Unless Syncrude is funded solely by the taxpayer, their pensions etc. are irrelevant

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

Ask about the pension the retirees of Syncrude get and its relation to unions...

My pension was based on my salary the last five years of my employment. During that time I was in management, and management isn't unionized at most oilsands companies. And in management, we received merit increases, not set increases like occupational workers. Some management people received no increases for some years, and some of us received increases well above the occupational increases.

Unless Syncrude is funded solely by the taxpayer, their pensions etc. are irrelevant[

Very true, nothing at all to do with public sector workers. I still pay income tax on my pension, which is positive cash flow to the government , just as my wage was for my entire working career.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

If covid is even half as bad as we've been told, experimenting now could leave us in a very bad position.

The Foothills currently has a covid outbreak that has infected 46 patients. 11 of them have died so far (25% fatality rate) and many are still sick!!! You probably couldn't pick a WORSE TIME to try and implement an entire hospital wide change over, as the vast majority of the new workers will have never worked in a hospital setting previously.

[Jadham]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And a PST is no solution for the reason that I stated, when the government sees more revenue, they spend more. Pretty soon we would have a 25% sales tax, like some European countries. The carbon tax is a PST on fuel and heating products, and what good has it done,?

The private sector has taken a beating, and now unfortunately, it looks like the public sector is going to suffer the same fate , unless of course the public sector is willing to accept rollbacks to allow those facing layoffs to keep their jobs.

Until Alberta has a PST we can never receive equalization, only pay into it.

The equalization formula is built around the ability of the province to generate tax revenue. Since we have no PST, according to the equalization formula the Alberta government still has room to internally generate revenue.

From the government website re: equalization (italics mine):

"On a per capita basis, Equalization assesses a province’s ability to generate own-source revenues and compares that fiscal capacity to the average fiscal capacity for all provinces. With the exception of user fees (fees for the use of public services), all provincial government revenue sources are allocated to one of five categories: personal income taxes, business income taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes and natural resource revenues.

Save for natural resource revenues, the Equalization formula estimates fiscal capacity in each of the four remaining revenue categories by determining the amount of per capita revenue that each province could generate if all provinces had identical tax rates.


I say start a PST... it will cut into the provincial deficit AND should start cutting into the amount we pay into equalization. Maybe if our situation worsens, Alberta will actually start to receive equalization... according to various numbers I've read Alberta currently pays $10 billion more to Ottawa than it receives... get rid of that and we are much closer to balanced budgets.

And the province should start collecting its own provincial income taxes... but that is another topic.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jadham

Until Alberta has a PST we can never receive equalization, only pay into it.

The equalization formula is built around the ability of the province to generate tax revenue. Since we have no PST, according to the equalization formula the Alberta government still has room to internally generate revenue.

I say start a PST... it will cut into the provincial deficit AND should start cutting into the amount we pay into equalization. Maybe if our situation worsens, Alberta will actually start to receive equalization... according to various numbers I've read Alberta currently pays $10 billion more to Ottawa than it receives... get rid of that and we are much closer to balanced budgets.

And the province should start collecting its own provincial income taxes... but that is another topic.

Do you really believe that Trudeau would allow Alberta to actually receive equalization payments rather than pay an extra 10 billion or more every year? Then who would pay the money that Quebec, Manitoba and the Atlantic provinces receive? A PST will not change that situation, Trudeau will do what it takes to keep the free money flowing to the provinces that currently receive it, so he keeps their votes. If the formula doesn't allow that, Trudeau will simply change the formula, and the NDP, and the Bloc will support it.

[Jadham]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Do you really believe that Trudeau would allow Alberta to actually receive equalization payments rather than pay an extra 10 billion or more every year? Then who would pay the money that Quebec, Manitoba and the Atlantic provinces receive? A PST will not change that situation, Trudeau will do what it takes to keep the free money flowing to the provinces that currently receive it, so he keeps their votes. If the formula doesn't allow that, Trudeau will simply change the formula.

The equalization formula is the same for all provinces... until we have a PST our situation cannot change wrt equalization... regardless of Trudeau's opinion.

Once we have a PST the amount we send to Ottawa and the amount returned to us WILL change, as according to the formula.

If Trudeau changes the formula, it will be applicable to all provinces, there are not separate formulas for each province. Income tax rates, business tax rates, etc currently are not that much different... it is the lack of the PST that still killing us wrt equalization.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jadham

The equalization formula is the same for all provinces... until we have a PST our situation cannot change wrt equalization... regardless of Trudeau's opinion.

Once we have a PST the amount we send to Ottawa and the amount returned to us WILL change, as according to the formula.

If Trudeau changes the formula, it will be applicable to all provinces, there are not separate formulas for each province. Income tax rates, business tax rates, etc currently are not that much different... it is the lack of the PST that still killing us wrt equalization.

Yes the formula applies to all provinces, but he will have it rewritten if necessary, and will change it so that Alberta continues to pay more than it receives. He will probably introduce some environmental factor into it, to make sure that Alberta comes out on the short end. This is Trudeau, the most corrupt PM ever, and he hates Alberta, because we won't give him any seats. He will do whatever it takes, and we know that the NDP will back him, and so will the Bloc, because it benefits Quebec. And if Alberta tries to leave Canada, he will find a way to stop it, because he won't give up the cash cow.

[Jadham]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Yes the formula applies to all provinces, but he will have it rewritten if necessary, and will change it so that Alberta continues to pay more than it receives. He will probably introduce some environmental factor into it, to make sure that Alberta comes out on the short end. This is Trudeau, the most corrupt PM ever, and he hates Alberta, because we won't give him any seats. He will do whatever it takes, and we know that the NDP will back him, and so will the Bloc, because it benefits Quebec. And if Alberta tries to leave Canada, he will find a way to stop it, because he won't give up the cash cow.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the suspicion re: Trudeau. But the reality is Alberta is making itself a victim to equalization without a PST. If Alberta charges a PST, the equalization amount changes the following year in our favor. Likely still a contributor, but smaller net amount. Plus the PST is collected directly and used by the province.

It would take a year or two after that before it's effects can be seen at the national, or rather Quebec, level. Then a year or two more to derive a new formula, likely taking into account natural resource revenues, to make Alberta more of a target.

Who knows what the political landscape will be by then. In the meantime, Alberta's hole is at least less deep.

Obviously paying more taxes sucks, but it will certainly help cushion the blow, especially if it has a double effect by also reducing equalization.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jadham

Don't get me wrong, I understand the suspicion re: Trudeau. But the reality is Alberta is making itself a victim to equalization without a PST. If Alberta charges a PST, the equalization amount changes the following year in our favor. Likely still a contributor, but smaller net amount. Plus the PST is collected directly and used by the province.

It would take a year or two after that before it's effects can be seen at the national, or rather Quebec, level. Then a year or two more to derive a new formula, likely taking into account natural resource revenues, to make Alberta more of a target.

Who knows what the political landscape will be by then. In the meantime, Alberta's hole is at least less deep.

Obviously paying more taxes sucks, but it will certainly help cushion the blow, especially if it has a double effect by also reducing equalization.

Here is an interesting read, how Trudeau secretly extended the program in it's present form. That alone makes me not trust him. And then there is the way the entire formula is slanted against the resource based economies like ours. If you honestly believe that Alberta will ever see a payment, let alone stop paying billions more than we receive, then the word gullible comes to mind.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/polit...ive-more-years

You might be willing to accept yet another tax, in the faint hope that it might actually help the province, but I don't trust either the provincial or federal government enough to willingly accept yet another tax.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by sns2

This is a good post.

We do pay the most per capita, and have some of the worst outcomes. However, every time my family or I have had to access medical care, we come away impressed, and grateful for the front line workers looking after us under what seem to be very stressful conditions.

Just so you know, almost all the teachers I choose to associate with, and every principal I have ever worked for would agree with you about the difficulty of getting rid of the brutal teachers because they certainly do exist.

If there is a way to save money without cutting frontline services it ‘should’ save money. Apart from paying union wages for jobs that might not warrant them, their is also the savings in benefits and pensions.
I know that once you are used to these they are hard to give up... but I’ve been with the same company going on 30 years and if I’m lucky will get a farewell dinner out of the deal when I leave.
But I did what many do (and what they tell us to do as soon as we enter the workforce)...I put a percentage of my earnings away for retirement every year and I’ll do just fine.
And I too feel the frontline system isn’t as broke as some make it out to be.
I have waited four hours in emergency for a very badly sprained shoulder... not life threatening.
A couple years ago I thought I might be having a heart attack and went to emergency.
I was sitting in front of a doctor in under five minutes.
When it counts, it works.