11,000 AHS workers to lose their jobs

[bsmitty27]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

What makes you think that they will replace all of those jobs? Are they all necessary, or can we do without some of them?

As far as a poor economics lesson goes, try this one.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...-fiasco-mounts

Yes I agree we could probably find efficiencies and cut down on some of those positions, that would be good governing, and that would be something I can get behind.
Unfortunately we will be switching healthcare service staff providers at a time when service staff is very important! and its not known if this change will save Alberta tax payers any money.
Think Kenny teamed up with the Trudeau foundation for this one!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Trochu

I'm on the other side of that coin, and it's not that easy, for that one simple job, you also have vehicle maintenance/insurance/registration, cost of training courses, paying the hourly wage while worker takes said courses, WCB, EI, pension, taxes, PPE, tools, etc. just for the job. Then back at the shop, you've got to make enough for admin staff, building lease, utilities, office equipment, shop supplies, etc., it's a long list of expenses.

I heard what buddy was charging per hour for a truck and pup in Edmonton this summer though, yikes, not a business I'd want to be in.

You are right, there are other expenses, all of which are spread over the full year and also often over the whole fleet.

Tools for example, one hand operated post hole digger that is used for thousands of posts.

PPE, steel toed boots and safety vest worn every day on every job.

No training,

So too for the rest of your list.

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Since you know all rates, why don’t you put a bid in to do it?
All you would probably have to do is refinance your house, leverage all your savings and risk your future. It could be all yours

Those jobs are not bid on separately. One bids on the whole contract.
That includes but is not limited to;

Snow removal,
Crack Sealing,
Guard rail repair and installation.
Gravel road grading,
Beaver control,
Spray patching, and more


Plus all the equipment needed to do said work for an entire RMA.

I worked in the Grimshaw RMA which included Manning, High Level, Hines Creek, Peace River, Berwin and other communities in that area.

I was told that all bidders have to have a 100 million dollar performance bond for their bid to be accepted. And they have to prove they have the needed equipment.

I don't think I could get all that with a mortgage on a 60,000 dollar house.

[Smoky buck]

This was coming for some time but was delayed do to COVID. If I remember right it is mostly cleaning and food service. Their wage is between $19-$23he on average but cooks make a little more. A large portion work on an on call basis no benefits

This has been a trend in health care unions across Canada. This will go all private sector where the pay will be $17-$20hr. Quality of work often declines because of lower standards in training

Except this to continue till theses services are phased out of the healthcare unions across Canada and go private

Sucks for those in this sector but should not be a surprise either

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I believe BC did this in 2017

BC did it before 2017. I can't remember the year but it was early in the Liberals reign. They cut out house keeping, food services, laundry, etc. and replaced them with private equivalents. I'm not sure of the savings involved, but I well remember the angst that went on for years. The environment was toxic for years and the jobs are now largely filled with new immigrants.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You are right, there are other expenses, all of which are spread over the full year and also often over the whole fleet.

Tools for example, one hand operated post hole digger that is used for thousands of posts.

PPE, steel toed boots and safety vest worn every day on every job.

No training,

So too for the rest of your list.



Those jobs are not bid on separately. One bids on the whole contract.
That includes but is not limited to;

Snow removal,
Crack Sealing,
Guard rail repair and installation.
Gravel road grading,
Beaver control,
Spray patching, and more


Plus all the equipment needed to do said work for an entire RMA.

I worked in the Grimshaw RMA which included Manning, High Level, Hines Creek, Peace River, Berwin and other communities in that area.

I was told that all bidders have to have a 100 million dollar performance bond for their bid to be accepted. And they have to prove they have the needed equipment.

I don't think I could get all that with a mortgage on a 60,000 dollar house.

You were probably told wrong

When you have to have all the equipment needed to do a contract across an entire area it should put things in perspective

I always get a kick out of the guys who say look how much money you made today and not knowing what the actual cost is to keep the wheels turning

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Scott h

BC did it before 2017. I can't remember the year but it was early in the Liberals reign. They cut out house keeping, food services, laundry, etc. and replaced them with private equivalents. I'm not sure of the savings involved, but I well remember the angst that went on for years. The environment was toxic for years and the jobs are now largely filled with new immigrants.

Northern health union in BC did not go private. Most of the lower mainland (fraser health) went private but some are still HEU. I am not 100% but I believe a good portion of BCs health regions still have the service department as part of the health union

But yes it caused grief in the lower mainland and most are private now making basically min wage. House keepers from the private sector were paid $14hr 6years ago don’t know what they are paid now

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You were probably told wrong

When you have to have all the equipment needed to do a contract across an entire area it should put things in perspective

I always get a kick out of the guys who say look how much money you made today and not knowing what the actual cost is to keep the wheels turning

So you suggest I don't know what it takes but you, who knows nothing about that particular industry, does know.

That's rich.

I own my own business, how about you?

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I was told that all bidders have to have a 100 million dollar performance bond for their bid to be accepted. And they have to prove they have the needed equipment.

They aren't, but lets say they are making a hypothetical profit of $3,160.00 per job. Also, lets say it takes $20M to have the required shops spread across the service area, manpower, equipment, and $100M performance bond. It's going to take 6,329 jobs at $3,160.00 profit per job to make back that twenty million.

I don't blame the contractor in this scenario one bit. I blame the owner handing out the job that's got a list of requirements a mile long, many which don't actually apply, or are a stretch at best.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Trochu

They aren't, but lets say they are making a hypothetical profit of $3,160.00 per job. Also, lets say it takes $20M to have the required shops spread across the service area, manpower, equipment, and $100M performance bond. It's going to take 6,329 jobs at $3,160.00 profit per job to make back that twenty million.

I don't blame the contractor in this scenario one bit. I blame the owner handing out the job that's got a list of requirements a mile long, many which don't actually apply, or are a stretch at best.

It's ironic don't you think, you assume you know more then I do about this industry, but you have never worked in or for any aspect of it have you.

You have no idea what roles I played in the industry other then what I have stated.

Do you lay out ever little detail of you past employment when you post about the jobs you have done.
No of course not, yet you assume I have, or that I don't have any ability to understand what I experienced.

You know what, have fun with that, I'm done here.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

So you suggest I don't know what it takes but you, who knows nothing about that particular industry, does know.

That's rich.

I own my own business, how about you?

I’m not super familiar with that industry
But I am familiar with owning equipment and running a business

So if this is so lucrative, why aren’t you jumping all over it?
If your current business is successful
Just go and put it all on the line and go after one of these areas when the contracts come up?
It sounds like its a license to print money

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It's ironic don't you think, you assume you know more then I do about this industry, but you have never worked in or for any aspect of it have you.

You have no idea what roles I played in the industry other then what I have stated.

Do you lay out ever little detail of you past employment when you post about the jobs you have done.
No of course not, yet you assume I have, or that I don't have any ability to understand what I experienced.

You know what, have fun with that, I'm done here.

Are you confusing me with someone else? I made no assumptions about you. Simply stating that I don't feel a hypothetical profit of a few grand a day is exorbitant when it takes $20M, or more, to play the game.

If the owner lowered the cost of entry, you'd likely see more players, which would probably increase efficiencies.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by hal53

Apparently "at least 100" middle to upper management will be gone. and a lions share of the rest will be achieved through retirement and attrition, according to Tyler Shandro. Im sure quite a few will be hired by the people who take on the service contracts as well...but then the news stations and the unions like to make it sound like 11.000 will get their walking papers at 0900 tomorrow morning....

We BOTH know those upper management/executive cronies will just get nice cushy salary-matched positions some where else in the Kenney/Shandro trough. Shandro will call it saving tax dollars while stuffing his own pockets.

It’s hard to believe the support on here for the most corrupt government west of Ottawa and east of Beijing. A bunch of you guys just lost your ability to criticize the turd.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You were probably told wrong

When you have to have all the equipment needed to do a contract across an entire area it should put things in perspective

I always get a kick out of the guys who say look how much money you made today and not knowing what the actual cost is to keep the wheels turning

That same reasoning could be used for many different occupations. The lower mainland has pretty much switched over to south asian truckers and equipment operators. They under bid cut most other companies and get the jobs done for a for a fraction of the cost.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 3blade

We BOTH know those upper management/executive cronies will just get nice cushy salary-matched positions some where else in the Kenney/Shandro trough. Shandro will call it saving tax dollars while stuffing his own pockets.

It’s hard to believe the support on here for the most corrupt government west of Ottawa and east of Beijing. A bunch of you guys just lost your ability to criticize the turd.

Yep. Just throw out Neo-Con / Trumpesque talking points and sheep come running. Critical thinking stops for most when it comes to their party of choice.
But Hell should go on notice if someone criticizes a small c conservative party in Alberta. Why is it so hard to figure out they are all crooks, hell bent on only one thing... power.

[Twisted Canuck]

Rex Murphy wrote this and I thought it had some bearing on the conversation....

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex...t-borne-by-all

[cranky]

Originally Posted by Scott h

That same reasoning could be used for many different occupations. The lower mainland has pretty much switched over to south asian truckers and equipment operators. They under bid cut most other companies and get the jobs done for a for a fraction of the cost.

If you only knew what they cost in the end it aint saving any of us anything. I have to bite my tongue like all the truckers on here do so as to not get banned.

If told you what we/i have seen over the years you would know your "south asian cost savers" arent saving us a thing.

Go to most warehouses, talk to a foreman, go to a gravel pit talk to loader or scale guy, or talk to cops who operate hwy. scales etc about them. Or spek to border crossing folks. I could go on. Or talk to truckers in private,you will get a education or you most likely wouldnt believe it.

I was in the trucking bus. over 50 years before , mostly as a owner op and have hauled most everything and been most everywhere in North America so speak from first hand experience.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by cranky

If you only knew what they cost in the end it aint saving any of us anything. I have to bite my tongue like all the truckers on here do so as to not get banned.

If told you what we/i have seen over the years you would know your "south asian cost savers" arent saving us a thing.

Go to most warehouses, talk to a foreman, go to a gravel pit talk to loader or scale guy, or talk to cops who operate hwy. scales etc about them. Or spek to border crossing folks. I could go on. Or talk to truckers in private,you will get a education or you most likely wouldnt believe it.

I was in the trucking bus. over 50 years before , mostly as a owner op and have hauled most everything and been most everywhere in North America so speak from first hand experience.

I'm pretty sure Scott is not in favor of this.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by Scott h

A sales tax would do 2 things
1) Balance the budget
2) Get whoever implements it voted out the next election

Agree with 2)

Balance the budget? Hahahahahahahaha Provide a source of more revenue for the government and you provide an option for more spending. Notice how the other provinces have PST and still run deficits?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Scott h

That same reasoning could be used for many different occupations. The lower mainland has pretty much switched over to south asian truckers and equipment operators. They under bid cut most other companies and get the jobs done for a for a fraction of the cost.

Oh that’s the same as in Alberta
You won’t find very man white gravel truck drivers

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Agree with 2)

Balance the budget? Hahahahahahahaha Provide a source of more revenue for the government and you provide an option for more spending. Notice how the other provinces have PST and still run deficits?

A PST just provides an excuse to waste more money

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by cranky

If you only knew what they cost in the end it aint saving any of us anything. I have to bite my tongue like all the truckers on here do so as to not get banned.

If told you what we/i have seen over the years you would know your "south asian cost savers" arent saving us a thing.

Go to most warehouses, talk to a foreman, go to a gravel pit talk to loader or scale guy, or talk to cops who operate hwy. scales etc about them. Or spek to border crossing folks. I could go on. Or talk to truckers in private,you will get a education or you most likely wouldnt believe it.

I was in the trucking bus. over 50 years before , mostly as a owner op and have hauled most everything and been most everywhere in North America so speak from first hand experience.

I do believe you. I was merely pointing out what happens when cuts are made and put out to the lowest bidder. It may seem good in theory, but sometimes you may not end up saving as much as you thought you were going to. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by sns2

I'm pretty sure Scott is not in favor of this.

No. I was merely trying to find an example of what some of the unintended consequences of cutting costs can be.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Oh that’s the same as in Alberta
You won’t find very man white gravel truck drivers

I worked in the late 70's and early 80's in with various excavation companies in Calgary and knew many owner operators of gravel trucks. There was one constant among them, and that was the upkeep of their trucks, and there is a cost to that. That certainly seems to be absent in the trucks I see on the coast. I'd never would have believed how many accidents there could be involving trucks with brake and tire issues, or zero driving experience. But they do charge less.

[leo]

Let’s get the train back on the track and stick to the known facts of the OP’s discussion.
Thanks, Leo

[roughneckin]

$17.78 Minimum to $19.39 Max per hour for Environmental personnel in AHS direct from recent job postings. This is where a lot of the layoffs will occur. These people will be paying AUPE union dues out of this amount so no extra pay for it.

How is a private company going to save on this? They won’t do it for free, so they will double this up and ask for $35-40/hour. But no one is loosing a job right, pretty sure that’s what Shando mentioned except those 100 upper executives. So they will save $600 million annually through pensions? Seems a bit far fetched to me.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Really? Cause I don't. Or what do you mean by gov't union? AUPE? Cause there is about 34K direct GOA employees under the AUPE. Far cry from 42K new positions. Or was that the propaganda that included every level of government including municipalities? Including ATA, AHS?

Selective memory? These articles may help:
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/study-fin...ings-1.4074885

Ryan White CTVNewsCalgary.ca Senior Digital Producer/Digital Lead
Published Thursday, August 30, 2018 5:13PM MDT
The Illusion of Alberta’s Job Recovery: Government vs. Private Sector Employment report, released Thursday morning, indicates that the private sector shed 46, 267 jobs between May of 2014 and July of 2018. The loss was offset by the creation of 78,733 new government jobs in Alberta at the municipal, provincial or federal level during the same time frame.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/ma...tas-job-mirage

Special to Financial Post
Publishing date: Aug 22, 2017 • Last Updated 3 years ago
Alberta’s job mirage: Why the province's apparent economic victory isn't what it appears to be

Matthew Lau: The Alberta NDP has been claiming a victory for central-planning economics in recent weeks, but a closer look reveals this isn’t really a policy success story

What about the return of jobs to Alberta? The NDP recently bragged that “nearly 49,000 jobs were created here over the last year,” which refers to the increase of 48,500 jobs for the 12 months ending June 2017. But it turns out — even if we ignore the decrease of 14,400 jobs in July — that this employment “recovery” is actually just a mirage: 41,900 of the 48,500 jobs were in the public sector, financed by deficits of over $10 billion at the provincial level and of nearly $30 billion in Ottawa.

I find it very interesting that the news reports and sound bites of the actual NDP speeches and victory announcements at the time are not easily found. Almost like the internet deleted them, so people would forget the truth...

While some of those hires were likely needed to replace normal attrition, many were purely government grandstanding aimed at garnering more votes at the expense of the private sector.

I find it shocking at the number of people who say we need to pay more taxes to solve this problem; that is the very solution that has gotten us to this point in the first place. Would these same people keep digging when they find themselves at the bottom of a deep hole? Smart people stop digging and start looking for a way out.
Apparently, socialist dogma does work.

[ESOXangler]

This is corporate socialism. Handfeeding lucrative contracts to a private company. Only people losing on this is the workers and the tax payer!

[hal53]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

This is corporate socialism. Handfeeding lucrative contracts to a private company. Only people losing on this is the workers and the tax payer!

Corporate socialism????...really????

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

This is corporate socialism. Handfeeding lucrative contracts to a private company. Only people losing on this is the workers and the tax payer!

How is reducing the government payroll socialism? If anything, it is the opposite. If the system becomes more efficient with fewer workers, and is able to maintain the same level of service, the taxpayer doesn't lose anything, in fact they stand to benefit. Having worked in industry for many years, I saw significant reductions in workforce, with no loss of production, because of changes o how the work was done. But at this point, we don't know what effect the layoffs will have on the level of service.

[3blade]

Hal and elk:

Where does Shandro have investments again? Oh that’s right....

Pay attention. It won’t cost you or me any less. Just changes where the money ends up, UCP ministers and donors instead of the people doing the work.