Flouro strength for pike leaders?

[Bushleague]

I've been thinking about getting away from using steel leaders this year and was wondering how heavy of Flourocarbon material I would need. I don't use real heavy line, 15-20 lbs max, more often 10lb, so I would like to know how light I can go before I need to worry about getting bitten off.

[RavYak]

I have used 40, you will get knicks and the odd break off because of it. I would say 50 minimun and I know guys that use and recommend up to 80. Even with those large sizes you need to check leaders after deep hooking a fish etc and make sure it isnt weakened.

I like titanium leaders for pike. Small, not that visible, dont kink. Catch 100s of fish per leader.

[Tom Pullings]

I use 50. Often times the lures I use are long enough that the teeth can't touch the leader anyway. Always be checking for nicks.

[EZM]

If you are going to buy fluorocarbon fishing line and try and use it as leader you will be disappointed.

Buy the fluorocarbon leader material. comes in a large roll with 25 to 50 yards on it like Berkley Big Game Fluorocarbon Leader Material.

There is a big difference in how the fluorocarbon is made for line versus the fluorocarbon that is made specifically for leader.

I use 80lb.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by EZM

If you are going to buy fluorocarbon fishing line and try and use it as leader you will be disappointed.

Buy the fluorocarbon leader material. comes in a large roll with 25 to 50 yards on it like Berkley Big Game Fluorocarbon Leader Material.

There is a big difference in how the fluorocarbon is made for line versus the fluorocarbon that is made specifically for leader.

I use 80lb.

Excelent point, so if I'm not willing to go to 80 lbs I should just stick to wire?

[RigPig]

Been using 50lb for years and have never been bit off. Gifted quite a few and to my knowledge they have also held tough. Used yo-zuri leader material. Will never go steel again. I usually tie right to my braid so I can real all the way in.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

Excelent point, so if I'm not willing to go to 80 lbs I should just stick to wire?

I have some leaders made up in 40lb and some in 50lb that I use when fishing for Walleye where the occasional pike might be around BUT If I'm casting specifically for pike (bigger crankbaits, spoons, etc..) I use the 80lb.

You really don't loose much going up to 80 because of it's thickness in this application.

It's a little bitchy when trying to tie a knot (onto a swivel snap on one end and swivel on the other) but I pull them tight with pliers.

80 lb is extra Insurance for those toothy critters is the way I look at it.

I have never had a bite off yet even on the 40 or 50 - So I'm sure 40 or 50 is just fine.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by EZM

I have some leaders made up in 40lb and some in 50lb that I use when fishing for Walleye where the occasional pike might be around BUT If I'm casting specifically for pike (bigger crankbaits, spoons, etc..) I use the 80lb.

You really don't loose much going up to 80 because of it's thickness in this application.

It's a little bitchy when trying to tie a knot (onto a swivel snap on one end and swivel on the other) but I pull them tight with pliers.

80 lb is extra Insurance for those toothy critters is the way I look at it.

I have never had a bite off yet even on the 40 or 50 - So I'm sure 40 or 50 is just fine.

Yeah, I fished this whole ice season without a leader and probably caught around 100 pike, this was with 8-10 lb Berkley Big Game mono, I cant remember losing a single one. My daughter however did lose a couple, and by the way they were running the drag I think they were pretty sizable ones, so she started using a steel leader. Some days I sure got a lot more hits without the leader though, so I'm shooting for a good compromise. Get more hits, but lose less fish.

In the summer if I'm fishing for walleye, I find that if I use a long shank hook and a snap swivel I rarely get bit off.

[dustinjoels]

Originally Posted by EZM

I have some leaders made up in 40lb and some in 50lb that I use when fishing for Walleye where the occasional pike might be around BUT If I'm casting specifically for pike (bigger crankbaits, spoons, etc..) I use the 80lb.

You really don't loose much going up to 80 because of it's thickness in this application.

It's a little bitchy when trying to tie a knot (onto a swivel snap on one end and swivel on the other) but I pull them tight with pliers.

80 lb is extra Insurance for those toothy critters is the way I look at it.

I have never had a bite off yet even on the 40 or 50 - So I'm sure 40 or 50 is just fine.

I use the exact same setup. Probably because I asked the same question last year and this was pretty much the consensus answer. 80lb fluorocarbon leader material with a swivel at one end and a cross lok snap at the other (I'm going to try a few fastach snaps this year). I use those leaders for about 80-100 pike each and then switch. That's a lot longer than I'd use a metal leader.

They cost about $2 to make, but you can just reuse the snaps and swivels later on on another leader.

There was definitely one day last year where the fluorocarbon leader seemed to be the trick. I caught 25 pike over 10 lbs that day and the other 3 guys in the boat combined for 10 over 10 lbs while all using the same lures as me but they were using steel leaders. I like to brag it was because I'm more skilled, but on that day I actually think it was the choice of leaders.

[Brandonkop]

I use 80 pound Fluoro leader material. Used 30 pound initially and some big pike cut through it like butter!

[Michael_Brown]

I have used 44lb Frog Hair Fluorocarbon leader material for years and have never been sawed off. Most of the time I throw soft plastics so the pike eat them and they stand up. The thinner diameter offers more line flexibility which means more lure action.
Get a few small good quality inline swivels and cross lock snaps and create your own leaders.
Some lakes the pike are uneducated but clear thin leaders are a definite advantage in more popular waterways and especially with bigger fish.

Frog Hair is a premium fluorocarbon leader material and hard to find, so I order it but worth the extra effort.

[trigger7mm]

I have used 40 lb. leader material for a few years now, and have had great success with it, but be sure to check for nicks after each fish.

[EZM]

I too will never use another steel or titanium leader ....... no reason whatsoever compels me to do so.

Compared to steel or titanium ...

Fluorocarbon is clear, virtually invisible for a more natural presentation leading to more strikes in most fishing conditions.

Is more flexible and supple allowing your lures to run as designed with the right action.

Allows you to grab the leader to control the little thrashing pike while keeping them in the water without the fear of the steel or titanium slicing your hand.

Does less damage to the fish when the do the death roll or get tangled up.

Is easy to tie your own custom length and use the swivels or swivel snaps you want to use.

Will not kink like steel (titanium also doesn't kink).

Cheaper than titanium if you buy the 25 to 50 yard rolls.

I freaking love fluorocarbon leaders.

[huntsfurfish]

I also use 50 to 80 lb Fluorocarbon. But I still like titanium too.

[ab_hunter]

For those of you who prefer heavy fluoro, do you use knots or crimps?

Thanks

[FishHunterPro]

I've been bit off with 50 and 60lb at Winefred , I've done really good with those though. If I came across some nice 80lb I would definetly try it there .

[ETOWNCANUCK]

I haven't in a couple years now.

I did the wire and the Titanium.

I just use 30 or 50lb Power Pro tied to a swivel.


That has been while shore fishing.

This year will be with a boat. And I am looking at trying Fluorocarbon.

My question is

If I use a 30 or 50lb Braid , does the Fluorocarbon leader need to be equivalent or greater?

And if this is Greater, how does it affect everything else?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK

If I use a 30 or 50lb Braid , does the Fluorocarbon leader need to be equivalent or greater?

And if this is Greater, how does it affect everything else?

Leader selection is not dependent on mainline. It is dependent on what you plan on fishing for.

Having a leader that is weaker then mainline is actually preferred because then if you have to break off you don't lose your whole leader.

That is why on my walleye rods I use 15 or 20 lb PP and then run an 8 lb fluoro line as a leader. Gives me lots of line strength, a bit more abrasion resistance(braids biggest weakness), gives invisibility of fluoro and keeps leader supple for walleye.

When you start talking about using fluoro leader for pike then you are doing so in order to get an invisible leader and you are sizing your fluoro with only one thing in mind, abrasion resistance. The leader size makes zero sense in every other way but you need it large enough to stand up to the pikes teeth.

In other words if fishing for pike it doesn't matter if your mainline is 15, 20, 30 or 50 lb braid. You always need 50+ lb fluoro leader.

For walleye on the other hand it makes more sense to upsize your mainline so that it is more then your leader. 8 lb leader use 15 or 20 lb braid mainline.

For a dedicated pike rig I recommend 30 lb braid. You can get away with 20 in most cases but I like 30.

[ETOWNCANUCK]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Leader selection is not dependent on mainline. It is dependent on what you plan on fishing for.

Having a leader that is weaker then mainline is actually preferred because then if you have to break off you don't lose your whole leader.

That is why on my walleye rods I use 15 or 20 lb PP and then run an 8 lb fluoro line as a leader. Gives me lots of line strength, a bit more abrasion resistance(braids biggest weakness), gives invisibility of fluoro and keeps leader supple for walleye.

When you start talking about using fluoro leader for pike then you are doing so in order to get an invisible leader and you are sizing your fluoro with only one thing in mind, abrasion resistance. The leader size makes zero sense in every other way but you need it large enough to stand up to the pikes teeth.

In other words if fishing for pike it doesn't matter if your mainline is 15, 20, 30 or 50 lb braid. You always need 50+ lb fluoro leader.

For walleye on the other hand it makes more sense to upsize your mainline so that it is more then your leader. 8 lb leader use 15 or 20 lb braid mainline.

For a dedicated pike rig I recommend 30 lb braid. You can get away with 20 in most cases but I like 30.

Thank you for that information.
I like 30 too.

[JohninAB]

On my heavy pike rod, I run 80lb braid and then a 50lb flouro leader. Gives me all the oomph I need for getting the big girls out of the cabbage, to the boat quick and released to fight another day.

I personally see no need for any heavier of a leader because as you get heavier, the leader gets thicker and I feel one may lose some of the lures action unless one is chucking a bulldog. Just my thots.

I will never use a steel leader, kinks are common.

Tried titanium. After a few failures where the leader broke plus the damage to the fish when it gets rolled up into the leader caused by how thin the titanium leader is, I said good bye. In fact it was one day at Wabamun when my titanium leader broke that the guy I was fishing with showed me the folly of my ways and introduced me to flourocarbon leader material. Have never looked back.

For walleye I run a long and light pound flouro leader tied directly to the lure.

[Cory1]

I use 60lb when targeting pike most days.
40lb is in there as well when bait fishing
I've got 20lb I use as well when walleye fishing.

Pick a good snap swivel and you should have a problem. Like anything check it once in a while but as long as you get leader material that stuff it damn near cut proof.

PS. Takes a bit of practice to get used to tying the heavier leaders

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Tried titanium. After a few failures where the leader broke plus the damage to the fish when it gets rolled up into the leader caused by how thin the titanium leader is, I said good bye. In fact it was one day at Wabamun when my titanium leader broke that the guy I was fishing with showed me the folly of my ways and introduced me to flourocarbon leader material. Have never looked back.

I on the other hand tried fluoro first then titanium and will never go back but everyone has their own preferences.

One thing to know about titanium leaders is that the 30 lb single strand titanium leaders do eventually fail due to fatigue where they loop around swivel eye. The 60+ lb ones are much better in this regard. I am cheap and titanium leaders are expensive, I guarantee I wouldn't use them if they failed regularly.

I use the 12 inch long leaders and if the fish rolls most of the damage is done by the main line which wraps many more times and further back on the softer part of fish(leader only wraps maybe once and usually around the nose). I don't think I have ever seen damage worse then scales scraped off and it is almost always from the braid and 1/3 to 1/2 way down the fish.

The following picture was the worst damage I could find in ~200 pics. Almost all the time it is in this same location and obviously caused by the main line not the leader. If you use a short fluoro leader you will get the same damage, if you use 3+ ft of heavy fluoro it will be less common but can still happen. It is rare enough and minor enough that I don't worry about it, pike are tough and can survive much worse.

[WildCats]

3-4 foot section of 80 lb Seagaur leader, attached with double crimped sleeves.

[scel]

Good News! I am not here to argue with you this time EZM!

Originally Posted by EZM

I too will never use another steel or titanium leader ....... no reason whatsoever compels me to do so.

Steel or braided leaders are complete garbage. There is no compelling reason to use them, ever.
EDIT: I take it back. Steel and braided leaders are easy to acquire and use for a relatively low price point.

One reason to use titanium is fly fishing. In fly fishing, you want to taper your leader, which is usually around 9'. My typical leader is 5' 40#, to 2.5' 25#, to 1.5' titanium. While the titanium is more dense, it is thinner. The stiffness actually helps turn over the fly. Since 40# fluoro is the butt of the leader, using a thick 40#+ terminal leader is detrimental

Originally Posted by EZM

Fluorocarbon is clear, virtually invisible for a more natural presentation leading to more strikes in most fishing conditions.

The index of refraction of fluoro is 1.42. The index of refraction of water is 1.33. (for point of reference, mono is n=1.53) Fluoro is definitely not invisible, but it is less visible than mono. 40# titanium wire is about 1/4 the diameter as 40# fluoro. On a bright calm July or August day (the day that most people will go fishing), I can see how fluoro would be a better choice. Outside these conditions, I am not sure if it makes much difference.

Originally Posted by EZM

Is more flexible and supple allowing your lures to run as designed with the right action.

I definitely see this, especially with jigging, bait fishing, or any time someone would want to put slack in their line. For trolling or an aggressive retrieve, like with a big bucktail spinner or crankbait, where there is constant tension on the line, I believe the knot that holds your snap (or whatever connector you use) is most critical aspect to giving a the lure the proper action it requires. With pre-made store purchased wire leaders, I have never seen the terminal clasp terminate with a loop connector, or a knot, like a non-slip mono loop or perfection loop.

Originally Posted by EZM

Allows you to grab the leader to control the little thrashing pike while keeping them in the water without the fear of the steel or titanium slicing your hand.

Whoah buddy, are you ever right here. I do most of my pike fishing from a pontoon or a canoe. I never net my fish. Controlling and handling of the fish is done with the fish in the water, which means handling it with the leader. I have had at least 2 different occassions where my hand was gashed straight across the palm and it takes a long time to heal. Fixing this is easy. At the fluoro to wire knot, a small bit of uv cured epoxy on the wire tag end 100% eliminates this risk. You do not need to worry about the wire-clasp connection. When dealing with that connection, it is just one more pokey thing in a whole world of pokey things.

Originally Posted by EZM

Does less damage to the fish when the do the death roll or get tangled up.

You are right. This does happen and a piece of titanium is absolutely viscious. It does not happen to me because I either use a cradle or preferably handle them 100% in the water. Unfortunately, to use a cradle, there needs to be another angler in the boat, and to handle them in the water, the angler needs to be practiced, confident, and patient. Personally, I do not think that pike should ever be netted. The death roll becomes an issue when the head is lower than the tail, which happens mostly in the net. For the most part, the death roll is avoidable in the water. Pike will always give a sign when they are about to thrash (flaring of the gills and open mouth). Just wait it out before gripping the fish behind the head, or carefully getting a gill grip. Once you have these grips, 95% of the time, the pike will stop thrashing.

Originally Posted by EZM

Is easy to tie your own custom length and use the swivels or swivel snaps you want to use.

I tie all my leaders with TiNi wire. I would not call it difficult, but it is definitely EASIER to use fluoro. Every angler should know a few knots, but to tie custom TiNi leaders, an angler should know the Albright knot, perfection knot, and uni knot. For fluoro, an angler only needs to know the good old clinch knot. To tie wire leaders, a pair of wire cutters (which should be in the boat anyway as a first aid treble hook removal tool) and a good pair of pliers (which could also be in the boat, depending on your preferred hook removal tool) are needed. Most people do not carry resin/epoxy to cover that nasty fluoro->wire tag end. I carry the knot resin, because, holy frig, the cross palm raking of wire is so damn nasty.

Originally Posted by EZM

Will not kink like steel (titanium also doesn't kink).

While I think steel is garbage, I certainly do not think anyone who uses them is garbage. Steel is cheap and easy, so for someone learning to fish, or your friend who is more interested in drinking beer with buddies than fishing, it is a viable option. For the intense and uptight, TiNi and fluoro are in a different category.

Originally Posted by EZM

Cheaper than titanium if you buy the 25 to 50 yard rolls.

In a length to length comparison, fluoro is WAY cheaper. WAY WAY WAY cheaper. 5m Knot2Kinky is $16. I think the same amount of money would give 25m of fluoro leader. That being said, I have leaders that are 4 years old. I will probably replace the clasp this year, but there is no reason why it should not last 4 or 5 more years.

Originally Posted by EZM

I freaking love fluorocarbon leaders.

You sure do, and for good reasons. For any conventional tackle angler, I think they are the best choice. I think TiNi has as many strengths, but they are more application specific and/or require more knowledge experience.

EZM, What is your favorite leader recipe for your average Alberta pike?

My recipe for super picky pike is actually a combination of fluoro and wire (fly fishing specific but the lengths can be altered to suit conventional tackle):
7' 40# fluoro leader --(albright knot)-- 6-8" 30# TiNi --(perfection loop)-- sz 1 Mustad fastach clip (20# break strength).

Rationale: 40# fluoro is simply not strong enough to handle the abrasion of multiple pike. Pike almost always hit from the side, preferably at the head, so that little wire means the pike can strike and completely miss, and still save your 40# fluoro.

[scel]

Originally Posted by RavYak

One thing to know about titanium leaders is that the 30 lb single strand titanium leaders do eventually fail due to fatigue where they loop around swivel eye. The 60+ lb ones are much better in this regard. I am cheap and titanium leaders are expensive, I guarantee I wouldn't use them if they failed regularly.

I have never had one break using a perfection loop or 2-turn uni knot. I have had one failure because I cut the tag end too close. It was kind of funny to hear the *ping* and watch my fly keep sailing through the air.

What knots are you using?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by scel

I have never had one break using a perfection loop or 2-turn uni knot. I have had one failure because I cut the tag end too close. It was kind of funny to hear the *ping* and watch my fly keep sailing through the air.

What knots are you using?

I am talking the 30 lb finn-tastic leaders for gear fishing. No knots failing, just the titanium where it is bent around the swivel. All metal is weakened when it is bent like that and fatigue from fighting fish and probably even more so from extra force when a lure gets stuck they eventually break. You will still catch a lot of fish on one of those leaders but the 60 lb ones are that much better it isn't worth using a 30 lb imo.

[possum]

I always use a wire leader when fishing Pike waters now. Back when I use to do tournaments I would just tie straight but it got bit off numerous times by big Pike, but Walleye are far more fussy than Pike and any type of lead will usually turn them off. We have even gone down to 2LB test and 1/16 oz jigs when the walleye got finnicky, and BAM they started hitting when the other boats weren't getting a bite. Here is one I caught on 4 LB test, good thing I had just tied on the wire leader.....I had been catching hammer handles and decided to tie on the wire before I started losing lures......took near 40 minutes to land her. 2 pics and back in the water to live another day.....

[Junglefisher]

I run 30-60lb leader, either fluoro or mono leader material, not just regular line.
I tie an FG knot to my mainline which is either 4, 6lb or 10lb braid depending on what rod I'm using.
Then I tie a loop knot (perfection loop, lefties loop) to the lure.
No clips, no swivels.
A new knot every time you change lure keeps the end fresh or if a lure is working well, I'll often cut and retie a few times depending on nicks / abrasion.
Just because you can catch pike with a steel leader and massive swivel doesn't mean you are maximizing your chances.

[cougar bait]

Just wondering when you guys are making your fluoro leaders how long do you normally make them?
Thanks

[Lowrance Fishburn]

I've tried many different combinations of braid-flouro. I have found my sweet spot to be 20 lb braid (I prefer Power Pro) to a 30 LB flouro leader. Now some might say 30 lbs is too light and to some extent perhaps it is, although I have caught many large gators on 30 lb. I've also lost some that may or may not have been that large as even a 5 lb pike has razor sharp teeth that can slice a flouro leader if they get it right.

The main difference I find is sensitivity. 30 lb vs say 50 lb is much more sensitive. The knots also get a lot harder to tie with the heavier leaders. 50 lb may be just as invisible as 30 lb but if a fish pokes your lure, often they can feel the stiffness of 50 lb flouro easily and know something is up. 30 lb is more flexible and IMO better for more subtle presentation.