Way too many tags....again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trophyboy]

I checked the tag counts in the southern zones of Alberta and once again I was disgusted with the ridiculous amount of mule deer tags given out. Some of the zones don't even have enough bucks to cover the amount of buck tags given and the amount of doe tags given makes me want to throw up in my mouth again! Will the stupidity ever end in this province?

Anyone know where I can find out how many outfitter mule deer tags were given for each zone? I bet it is ridiculously disproportional as always.

Anyone know of any way to get any of this changed?

[Don K]

It won't change. It won't end. Unfortunately our system is messed up and it's not going to get better until it absolutely collapses...

[Ryry4]

Well at least they stopped the cull hunts. Oh wait...

[walking buffalo]

Trophyboy

The 2013 Outfitter Allocation "Agreement" (in quotes due this not being a true agreement between the parties) has just been finalized in the last few weeks and will soon become available. I have some of the numbers, and when they are all available I will once again make sure that this information is passed on to the public.

To get an understanding of what "too many tags" means to you, what percentage of the population should be available for harvest in a season?

Which wmus in particular concern you as having "too many tags" available for Residents?

[H380]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

Well at least they stopped the cull hunts. Oh wait...

LOL .. Good one . I see in my zone of 108 there have been 675 whitetail doe tags given , which is way higher than the other closest zone in numbers . Lots of does here and I am guessing their reasoning is that this way they can get by with not having to instigate another February cull hunt cause they gave out all those extra tags for regular season . Smart move , except that a lot of the trouble animals { the ones that live in town } are NEVER available to hunters , regular season or special cull hunt .

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Trophyboy

The 2013 Outfitter Allocation "Agreement" (in quotes due this not being a true agreement between the parties) has just been finalized in the last few weeks and will soon become available. I have some of the numbers, and when they are all available I will once again make sure that this information is passed on to the public.

To get an understanding of what "too many tags" means to you, what percentage of the population should be available for harvest in a season?

Which wmus in particular concern you as having "too many tags" available for Residents?

That is going to be some interesting information. Thanks for taking the time to stay on top of this. I am also assuming this will be locked in for a five year period.

[Ranger CS]

For your information, not all WMU in southern Alberta have a deficit of mule deer. Some have an abundance of them, in fact too many in my opinion and the numbers need to be reduced.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ranger CS

For your information, not all WMU in southern Alberta have a deficit of mule deer. Some have an abundance of them, in fact too many in my opinion and the numbers need to be reduced.

Yes, I agree, these WMU's are what are being groomed as "trophy zones". This is where outfitters and landowners have the majority of the tags year over year, and where the resident NR draw wait times are extremely long. Adding to the lost resident opportunity, these WMU's have now put resident mule deer archery on draw too.

This process is enabled by the SMA (Species Management Area -outfitter areas) versus WMU (other users) process. This is where outfitter allocations are assigned by SMA (multiple WMU's make up a SMA). Inside the SMA the outfitter allocations are high in the trophy WMU's, enabled by lower allocations in the other WMU's making up that SMA. They then claim that they are within the guidelines on that SMA even though it really isn't fair on a WMU level.

WMU 138 is a "trophy zone". Mule deer are everywhere, tons of crown lease too. There were 5 resident/NR drawn in 2010 (216 applicants). There were 6 outfitter tags allocated, And 6 landowner tags. And bowhunters now need an impossible odds draw tag too.

Until a group takes this issue on as a priority, it is only going to get worse.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Ranger CS

For your information, not all WMU in southern Alberta have a deficit of mule deer. Some have an abundance of them, in fact too many in my opinion and the numbers need to be reduced.

X2.

Lots of city guys on here that don't have to watch them starve to death in a mother nature organized cull. With all the culling done by humans I never noticed a significant difference in deer numbers. The real difference in the populations started to occur during the last couple of hard winters. The populations will come back and if they aren't managed properly we will need another cull.

[RoscoeT]

Can of worms here I'm sure but here it goes anyway.

I always wonder why so many of us good ole' boys seem to feel we know better than teams of zoologists and wildlife experts whose entire career is riding on things like this.

I find that it's usually hunters who look for trophies who get upset about this. They want lots of mature bucks in an area, close to their home, that they can pick and choose from. They really want more bone on the wall despite what the wildlife management experts feel is best overall. Meat hunters don't usually get that excited about it.

I'm no scientist so I tend to trust the experts a bit more than just anecdotal forum evidence of "I've seen/ not seen many deer this year".

It's not like they have some hidden agenda to wipe out the deer.

[Ranger CS]

[QUOTE=hillbillyreefer;2163567]X2.

Lots of city guys on here that don't have to watch them starve to death in a mother nature organized cull. With all the culling done by humans I never noticed a significant difference in deer numbers. The real difference in the populations started to occur during the last couple of hard winters. The populations will come back and if they aren't managed properly we will need another cull.[/

Also it is not the city guys who are feeding the deer 12 months of the year. I don't think people have any idea as to how many tons on feed per year large numbers of deer can consume. For many, the only time they lay eyes on these animals is when their shooting at them.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by RoscoeT

Can of worms here I'm sure but here it goes anyway.

I always wonder why so many of us good ole' boys seem to feel we know better than teams of zoologists and wildlife experts whose entire career is riding on things like this.

I find that it's usually hunters who look for trophies who get upset about this. They want lots of mature bucks in an area, close to their home, that they can pick and choose from. They really want more bone on the wall despite what the wildlife management experts feel is best overall. Meat hunters don't usually get that excited about it.

I'm no scientist so I tend to trust the experts a bit more than just anecdotal forum evidence of "I've seen/ not seen many deer this year".

It's not like they have some hidden agenda to wipe out the deer.

Agree. Well said.

[Drop_Tine]

[QUOTE=Ranger CS;2163576]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

X2.

Lots of city guys on here that don't have to watch them starve to death in a mother nature organized cull. With all the culling done by humans I never noticed a significant difference in deer numbers. The real difference in the populations started to occur during the last couple of hard winters. The populations will come back and if they aren't managed properly we will need another cull.[/

Also it is not the city guys who are feeding the deer 12 months of the year. I don't think people have any idea as to how many tons on feed per year large numbers of deer can consume. For many, the only time they lay eyes on these animals is when their shooting at them.

Ohhhh ok so it SRD's job to play God ?? And cull out the deer numbers than a
hard winter hits and the deer numbers really suffer !! Yup makes total sense to me .... Ohhh and hmmmm landowners shoot bucks , but really if there is a deer problem the does should be taken not the bucks ... Don't need a degree to figure that out ..." But really I'm just a arrogant trophy hunter and could give a crap about the deer herds " you are so wrong with that statement !! Trophy hunter do care , prob more that the " meat" hunters !! I know a few trophy hunters that are out feeding these deer in the hard winter months . Don't see the " meat" hunters doing this .

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by trophyboy

I checked the tag counts in the southern zones of Alberta and once again I was disgusted with the ridiculous amount of mule deer tags given out. Some of the zones don't even have enough bucks to cover the amount of buck tags given and the amount of doe tags given makes me want to throw up in my mouth again! Will the stupidity ever end in this province?

Anyone know where I can find out how many outfitter mule deer tags were given for each zone? I bet it is ridiculously disproportional as always.

Anyone know of any way to get any of this changed?

Your name indicates what's important to you. Not everyone is so inclined.

So more buck tags than bucks? And what statistics do you have to back up your claim? And what is the success rate in these WMU's? They can give out twice as many tags as animals if the success rate is really low.

[Wazy.338]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Your name indicates what's important to you. Not everyone is so inclined.

So more buck tags than bucks? And what statistics do you have to back up your claim? And what is the success rate in these WMU's? They can give out twice as many tags as animals if the success rate is really low.

Glad to see some people get it here,,RoscoeT nailed it as well.

[kstats]

Originally Posted by RoscoeT

Can of worms here I'm sure but here it goes anyway.

I always wonder why so many of us good ole' boys seem to feel we know better than teams of zoologists and wildlife experts whose entire career is riding on things like this.

I find that it's usually hunters who look for trophies who get upset about this. They want lots of mature bucks in an area, close to their home, that they can pick and choose from. They really want more bone on the wall despite what the wildlife management experts feel is best overall. Meat hunters don't usually get that excited about it.

I'm no scientist so I tend to trust the experts a bit more than just anecdotal forum evidence of "I've seen/ not seen many deer this year".

It's not like they have some hidden agenda to wipe out the deer.

Well put...

[Drop_Tine]

I don't get the arrogance about trophy hunters not caring about the deer , what's the beef ?? Jealous ?? ... That statement is so wrong and really the total opposite !!

Easy to walk out the door and shoot the first buck or doe I see . But since my passion is hunting I try to find the biggest/mature bucks I can , nothing wrong with shooting the first animal you see either . There just needs to be better management of the deer heards , zone specific of course . The "trophy" hunter knows what out in there zone as the countless hrs spent scouting , shed hunting , feeding the deer in the winter to get them threw the tough spells.

[JRsMav]

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

I don't get the arrogance about trophy hunters not caring about the deer , what's the beef ?? Jealous ?? ... That statement is so wrong and really the total opposite !!

Easy to walk out the door and shoot the first buck or doe I see . But since my passion is hunting I try to find the biggest/mature bucks I can , nothing wrong with shooting the first animal you see either . There just needs to be better management of the deer heards , zone specific of course . The "trophy" hunter knows what out in there zone as the countless hrs spent scouting , shed hunting , feeding the deer in the winter to get them threw the tough spells.

I 'trophy' hunt. I have no clue why you think anyone would be 'jealous' of me as I haven't fired a round at an animal in almost 3 years. So please clarify why you feel there would be any grounds for anyone in their right mind to be jealous of a trophy hunter. To say trophy hunters are anymore in tune with animal herds is ridiculous. I know and hunt with plenty of guys that spend just as much time if not more scouting to shoot their annual meat deer as I do.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

I don't get the arrogance about trophy hunters not caring about the deer , what's the beef ?? Jealous ?? ... That statement is so wrong and really the total opposite !!

Easy to walk out the door and shoot the first buck or doe I see . But since my passion is hunting I try to find the biggest/mature bucks I can , nothing wrong with shooting the first animal you see either . There just needs to be better management of the deer heards , zone specific of course . The "trophy" hunter knows what out in there zone as the countless hrs spent scouting , shed hunting , feeding the deer in the winter to get them threw the tough spells.

Nobody said a trophy hunter doesn't "care about deer" I don't even know what that means.

[Drop_Tine]

Originally Posted by RoscoeT

Can of worms here I'm sure but here it goes anyway.

I always wonder why so many of us good ole' boys seem to feel we know better than teams of zoologists and wildlife experts whose entire career is riding on things like this.

I find that it's usually hunters who look for trophies who get upset about this. They want lots of mature bucks in an area, close to their home, that they can pick and choose from. They really want more bone on the wall despite what the wildlife management experts feel is best overall. Meat hunters don't usually get that excited about it.

I'm no scientist so I tend to trust the experts a bit more than just anecdotal forum evidence of "I've seen/ not seen many deer this year".

It's not like they have some hidden agenda to wipe out the deer.

Really says it right here


You guys agreed !!

[Drop_Tine]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

I 'trophy' hunt. I have no clue why you think anyone would be 'jealous' of me as I haven't fired a round at an animal in almost 3 years. So please clarify why you feel there would be any grounds for anyone in their right mind to be jealous of a trophy hunter. To say trophy hunters are anymore in tune with animal herds is ridiculous. I know and hunt with plenty of guys that spend just as much time if not more scouting to shoot their annual meat deer as I do.

It's the arrogance about trophy hunters not caring about the deer herds and a they want is bone on the wall ... WRONG

I never said they were jealous . I asked what there beef was about trophy hunters not caring and if it was cause they were jealous !!???? Just wanna know why trophy hunters have the I don't care about deer numbers just about the trophy wrap ??

That's great your buddies spend a lot of time in the field!

[Drop_Tine]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Your name indicates what's important to you. Not everyone is so inclined.

So more buck tags than bucks? And what statistics do you have to back up your claim? And what is the success rate in these WMU's? They can give out twice as many tags as animals if the success rate is really low.

And here on ur first line !!

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

Really says it right here


You guys agreed !!

He never said trophy hunters don't care about deer. You are reading what you want into his quote.

However, what often rubs non-trophy hunters about TH's is that they want to manage deer for "quality", meaning age and rack size. Nothing wrong at all with limiting your own hunting, passing on young deer, etc, to achieve that goal. It's when they want to impose that limitation on others by way of regulation... others who do not share their passion for a B&C entry or a wall hanger. That's where the conflict usually arises. I have nothing against trophy hunters. They are selective and care about deer a great deal. It's only when they try to get rules changes so I must value what they value and hunt like they do. That's all. However, they needn't worry. Even indiscriminate, "shoot anything" me eats a lot of tags. LOL

All this Trophy talk is a bit of a derail however. What the OP was complaining about was simply too many deer taken in his opinion (though what is "too many"?). Unfortunately he has no data to back up his opinion.

[JRsMav]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

He never said trophy hunters don't care about deer. You are reading what you want into his quote.

However, what often rubs non-trophy hunters about TH's is that they want to manage deer for "quality", meaning age and rack size. Nothing wrong at all with limiting your own hunting, passing on young deer, etc, to achieve that goal. It's when they want to impose that limitation on others by way of regulation... others who do not share their passion for a B&C entry or a wall hanger. That's where the conflict usually arises. I have nothing against trophy hunters. They are selective and care about deer a great deal. It's only when they try to get rules changes so I must value what they value and hunt like they do. That's all. However, they needn't worry. Even indiscriminate, "shoot anything" me eats a lot of tags. LOL

All this Trophy talk is a bit of a derail however. What the OP was complaining about was simply too many deer taken in his opinion (though what is "too many"?). Unfortunately he has no data to back up his opinion.

I hear the same griping and complaining in my zone oko (232). for two years all ive heard from many locals and guys that solely hunt in the zone is that there are no deer left. Big deer don't exist here anymore. and mule deer are extinct in the zone as well. those are usually the same guys that base their opinions on deer herds on how many sightings they have roadside on the way to work in the morning. Ive personally found its quite the opposite and have seen more deer the last couple years than I ever have and larger more quality deer as well. But neither could be strewn as factual as theyre only personal first hand accounts.

[Drop_Tine]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

He never said trophy hunters don't care about deer. You are reading what you want into his quote.

However, what often rubs non-trophy hunters about TH's is that they want to manage deer for "quality", meaning age and rack size. Nothing wrong at all with limiting your own hunting, passing on young deer, etc, to achieve that goal. It's when they want to impose that limitation on others by way of regulation... others who do not share their passion for a B&C entry or a wall hanger. That's where the conflict usually arises. I have nothing against trophy hunters. They are selective and care about deer a great deal. It's only when they try to get rules changes so I must value what they value and hunt like they do. That's all. However, they needn't worry. Even indiscriminate, "shoot anything" me eats a lot of tags. LOL

All this Trophy talk is a bit of a derail however. What the OP was complaining about was simply too many deer taken in his opinion (though what is "too many"?). Unfortunately he has no data to back up his opinion.

Yeah mb Internet discussion are mis interpreted!


So how does a guy get data ?? To prove that the tag numbers don't support the deer numbers , log the amount of bucks and does a guy sees ?? Than he just gets called a BS'r !! Or just go off what srd says cause they are educated ?? But look at past history of over Abundance of antelope tags ( ohh they're cut way back now ) , over abundance of mulie tags and cull ( ohhhh now bow hunters harvest to many deer , and ohhhh we cut zone tags last year ) now increase the tags numbers this year , cause 1 year the deer population tripled ! Went from 30 buck tags in a specific zone last year to 110 this year .... Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[Ranger CS]

Personally I don't believe the province has any idea how many animals of any particular species are out there in any particular year. The people employed by the ministry are not the ones responsible, as they do not have the resources necessary to do their job. Our provincial government has placed wildlife management and enforcement near the bottom if not the very bottom of it's list of priorities. At the present time there are not enough people actually out in the field to accumulate any reliable or valid information regarding the population of game animals. Hunters and landowners are away more informed on this matter simply by spending away more time where such information can be gathered. As an example, it as very rare day in the field that I do not see one or more grizzlies in the high alpine areas in the southwest corner of the province. I don't think those responsible for game management have any idea how many bears are actually out there simply because they don't spend enough time out their to know s__ t about population numbers, yet it is the information or lack of information provided by these people that provincial game management decisions are based on.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

I hear the same griping and complaining in my zone oko (232). for two years all ive heard from many locals and guys that solely hunt in the zone is that there are no deer left. Big deer don't exist here anymore. and mule deer are extinct in the zone as well. those are usually the same guys that base their opinions on deer herds on how many sightings they have roadside on the way to work in the morning. Ive personally found its quite the opposite and have seen more deer the last couple years than I ever have and larger more quality deer as well. But neither could be strewn as factual as theyre only personal first hand accounts.

Really????..... good to hear......

[trophyboy]

Some good points being made from both sides of this but the bottom line is we had 2 back to back winters that devastated deer herds along with the ridiculous CWD culls in several zones. These deer herds do not recover in 2 years, that is just simple common sense....unless your from Okotoks and have 15705 posts and spend all day with your obese hiney on AO trying to be smart. Also, anyone who knows anything about wildlife management knows you need several year classes to sustain a healthy herd and yes that means trophy bucks as well.

I grew up in the southeast part of the province and know pretty well every landowner within a 60 mile radius of where I grew up. I know pretty well every cactus by name and spend alot of time afield, probably more than anyone I know. I actually do care about the entire herd and it's sustainabilty, otherwise I wouldn't bother trying to talk sense into most of the metrosexuals who frequent this site. Kinda comical though that some imbecile with 15705 posts knows so much about our deer herds. 15705 posts....really????????????? LOL

[gman1978]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

I hear the same griping and complaining in my zone oko (232). for two years all ive heard from many locals and guys that solely hunt in the zone is that there are no deer left. Big deer don't exist here anymore. and mule deer are extinct in the zone as well. those are usually the same guys that base their opinions on deer herds on how many sightings they have roadside on the way to work in the morning. Ive personally found its quite the opposite and have seen more deer the last couple years than I ever have and larger more quality deer as well. But neither could be strewn as factual as theyre only personal first hand accounts.

Wow!!!!!!!! Great news!!!!!! I live there and have hunted in that neck of the woods my whole life. Maybe it's going to be like the late 90's all over again!!

[H380]

Originally Posted by RoscoeT

Can of worms here I'm sure but here it goes anyway.

I always wonder why so many of us good ole' boys seem to feel we know better than teams of zoologists and wildlife experts whose entire career is riding on things like this.

I find that it's usually hunters who look for trophies who get upset about this. They want lots of mature bucks in an area, close to their home, that they can pick and choose from. They really want more bone on the wall despite what the wildlife management experts feel is best overall. Meat hunters don't usually get that excited about it.

I'm no scientist so I tend to trust the experts a bit more than just anecdotal forum evidence of "I've seen/ not seen many deer this year".

It's not like they have some hidden agenda to wipe out the deer.

OK, I respect your opinion and agree with you a little , but just a little .The bios make their living making decisions on what they feel harvest levels and populations should be . Sooooo, what's your take on the grizzly population and why we have no hunt ? I myself don't trust them on this one.