Dogs for grouse hunting - Page 5

VizlsasRok · #**121** 09-09-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winch101

They make great pets , kind of a unique personality ,but pretty far

Down the list of popular Birddogs ,here in Alberta.....

I have owned a few ,couple of them were pretty handy .....but not in the same class as the Brits ,GSP , and Labs for pheasants here ...

I couldn’t let this post go unanswered without conveying my experience with the Vizsla breed – with all due respect to your opinion/experience. And, in keeping with the OP's question, pass along some other insight to his search for a good grouse dog (not that I’m expert by any means – just passing along some personal thoughts/experience). Apologies to all for the lengthy diatribe!

Winch101 - Your personal experience with Vizslas is unfortunate. There could be many possible reasons why and how you have formed your opinion of the breed. My experience has been quite the opposite. At the risk of ‘talking up’ my bitch (which I try to refrain from doing, but need to in order to make this point), I would gladly run her with any other breed and be confident that she would not only hold her own, but outhunt most of them. I have not owned other breeds, but have hunted her with many. She has been described by more than one knowledgeable and experienced hunter/handler as one of the best and/or the best pheasant dog that they have hunted over. In my personal experience, I would NOT describe her as second class to GSPs, brits or labs or any other breed. Sure, there are better hunters than her, but I would venture to say not many. And, I couldn’t ask for more as a home companion. And, although only 14 months old, her get appear to be following in their parents’ footsteps (knock on wood). Bottom line - to each, their own.

Rustydog - it’s possible to ‘get’ a fantastic hunter or an ‘OK’ one out of any breeding in any breed. The point I’m making (in the same vein as my earlier post), is that you OVERDO your research on your chosen breed (consider your needs and the breed’s needs) and breeder. Do so not only by following a ‘checklist’ which includes looking for hunt titles. Go further if you can. Hunt titles are an indication, among others, of the breeding dogs’ hunting ability, biddability and willingness to work with their partners. They are also an indication of the handler’s ability or lack thereof and the dog’s level of and exposure to training. But, they are only a snapshot of the ‘dog on the day’ (in the case of NAVHDA – not so much for AKC/CKC titles). This being said, I’d rather go with a pup from parents that have proven ability under test conditions (noting that tests are available for young dogs) judged by unbiased individuals.

Better yet, and if possible, go for a hunt with the parents and/or offspring, if available. If that’s not possible, speak with unbiased people who have hunted with the parents/offspring. If it’s a repeat breeding or if either parent has been bred before, speak with owners of the parents’ previous offspring. Balancing your opinion of the breeding (while considering other perspectives – health, temperament and conformation) with this ‘extra’ information will dramatically improve the chances of getting you a companion/hunter that you will be proud to ‘talk up’. Keep in mind that you and your family have to share space with the four-legger year round – not only during hunting season.

I do not want to come off as condescending or patronizing or knowing it all –I’m not and I don’t and I do fully respect others’ opinions, choices and ways of doing things. Personally, I would not and did not leave my choice of a responsible and reputable breeder or breed up to ‘luck’, just as a good breeder would not leave their choice of breeding stock to chance. ALL puppies are cute! It seems a lot of work up front (and it is) and when picking a pup, there is always the chance of getting a stellar specimen or a so-so representation of the breed. But, once again – I’d rather stack the odds well in my favour by doing as much work as possible up front! A good breeder will be more than willing to take the time to assist before and well after you take your pup home.

Have fun with your decision (if this doesn’t scare you off…lol)! I wish you much luck wading through all that is choosing a hunting companion!

Sneeze · #**122** 09-09-2013, 01:21 PM

A man who marries a super-model does not waste time debating with his peers who's wife cooks the best.

To the OP - Marry the super-model, get a lab.

VizlsasRok · #**123** 09-09-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneeze

A man who marries a super-model does not waste time debating with his peers who's wife cooks the best.

To the OP - Marry the super-model, get a lab.

LOL!

Point made and taken. Though I still stand by my thoughts...

And...don't 'they' say that "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder.

jryley · #**124** 09-09-2013, 06:47 PM

All around wise, id honestly put vizlas at the top! If i didnt have such a raging you know what for chessies and labs, and if i didnt cold water hunt id take a vizla over any flushing breed for sure! Those boys down south swear by them!

Winch101 · #**125** 09-09-2013, 07:12 PM

It is preposterous that Vizlas are in the top five upland dogs bred in Canada...

Doubtful in the top five breeds bred anywhere. In fact it's only in the last ten years ,that there are Canadian Viszla breeders worth even talking about .
And there are only a couple

Personal preference has very little to do wit h performance...the greater percentile of Viszlas are show dogs period...

They don't run with the big dogs ,they have their niche ,popular pet ,
Quite a few questionable breeders , sad really ,of late have become the Dalmatians of the pointing world , hardly a versatile dog in this climate...

Rustydog · #**126** 09-09-2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneeze

A man who marries a super-model does not waste time debating with his peers who's wife cooks the best.

To the OP - Marry the super-model, get a lab.

Haha I did merry a supermodel!! I just don't have a lab lol

aulrich · #**127** 09-09-2013, 10:14 PM

Mental Note, List of topics to Avoid:

Politics
Religion
Dogs

who'da thunk it

ACKLEY ABE · #**128** 09-10-2013, 06:42 AM

[QUOTE=Winch101;2110604]It is preposterous that Vizlas are in the top five upland dogs bred in Canada...

Doubtful in the top five breeds bred anywhere. In fact it's only in the last ten years ,that there are Canadian Viszla breeders worth even talking about .
And there are only a couple

Personal preference has very little to do wit h performance...the greater percentile of Viszlas are show dogs period...

Funny...if they are show dogs how come you see so few in ....Dog Shows?....I have only known of three in the ring in the last year in western Canada...sorry make that five, there were two up from Oklahoma this year...and all of them had field titles...or were in the process.

There have been some great breeders around for far more than 10 years I've had V's for 16 years and yes like any other breed, there are breeders I would not recomend....

Winch101 · #**129** 09-10-2013, 09:10 AM

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong with opinion blogs.

What posters think I said is quite different than what I actually said ...

I was never disappointed with owning a Viszla ,,,,great pets ...in fact

A little to needy really .... I think also if your breeding dogs and selling them

And posting their pics on here....in hunting threads .....you should be

Paying for the advertising especially if your out of province ....

I agree with your summation ,we re talking bout such a small conglomeration

Of dogs that really they have little impact with what is going on at the upper

Level of the bird dog community .... 40 Something years ago I was kind of out to lunch
As to what constituted a good gun dog ....
Been here for 23yrs hunting pheasants in some of the toughest terrain those birds
Live in in North America ....I,ve hunted the Dakotas ,Iowa,Kansas ,Missouri
We might not have the most cover but we have the toughest .

Some of these posts intimating that these are wonder dogs , and a closely
Guarded treasure that you should be so lucky to own. My first thought
Was how did all these Hungarian Gypsies get on here ...

As far genetic health problems Viszlas have more than their share
For such a small gene pool....

Like any other breed if you think you have the bet dog there is
Your normal , but unfortunately on here your preaching to the choir .

Lots of us know horse caca when we see it....

jryley · #**130** 09-10-2013, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winch101

It is preposterous that Vizlas are in the top five upland dogs bred in Canada...

Doubtful in the top five breeds bred anywhere. In fact it's only in the last ten years ,that there are Canadian Viszla breeders worth even talking about .
And there are only a couple

Personal preference has very little to do wit h performance...the greater percentile of Viszlas are show dogs period...

They don't run with the big dogs ,they have their niche ,popular pet ,
Quite a few questionable breeders , sad really ,of late have become the Dalmatians of the pointing world , hardly a versatile dog in this climate...

winch I have to ask what youre basing your opinion on? Ive owned two 'pet' labs as well that were terrible hunters. Yet I will never insinuate that labs are anything less than a 'top five dog'.

You need to do your homework on a breed before posting incorrect info pal. The AKC's first quintuple champion is....you guessed it....a vizla. I have never owned one, never will own one, but will never say they are anything less than pretty much the perfect hunting hound if utilized in the proper climate and if they come from good stock. I have however researched until I was blue in face before I selected my Chesapeake in order to ensure I got exactly what I wanted in a dog as my field companion, as well as hunted over a couple in my day.

Cold weather aside, I would go as far as to state that if a vizla pup were to come from proven hunt stock, they would without a doubt, out hunt, out retrieve and out perform any dog you choose to hunt over. They are a TRUE jack of all trades.

You gotta give credit where credit is due and abstain from preaching only what YOU choose to hunt over, as youre opinion is GROSSLY incorrect. But then again, its an opinion so youre entitled to it, but you cant confuse youre opinion with facts.

jryley · #**131** 09-10-2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winch101

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong with opinion blogs.

What posters think I said is quite different than what I actually said ...

I was never disappointed with owning a Viszla ,,,,great pets ...in fact

A little to needy really .... I think also if your breeding dogs and selling them

And posting their pics on here....in hunting threads .....you should be

Paying for the advertising especially if your out of province ....

I agree with your summation ,we re talking bout such a small conglomeration

Of dogs that really they have little impact with what is going on at the upper

Level of the bird dog community .... 40 Something years ago I was kind of out to lunch
As to what constituted a good gun dog ....
Been here for 23yrs hunting pheasants in some of the toughest terrain those birds
Live in in North America ....I,ve hunted the Dakotas ,Iowa,Kansas ,Missouri
We might not have the most cover but we have the toughest .

Some of these posts intimating that these are wonder dogs , and a closely
Guarded treasure that you should be so lucky to own. My first thought
Was how did all these Hungarian Gypsies get on here ...

As far genetic health problems Viszlas have more than their share
For such a small gene pool....

Like any other breed if you think you have the bet dog there is
Your normal , but unfortunately on here your preaching to the choir .

Lots of us know horse caca when we see it....

to clarify further, I to othink Bird Dog is out to lunch in his impending breeding practises and will only further hurt what can be a shady industry and I will be the first to denounce his op when he gets started. However, you cant use the 'most influential in the bird dog circiut' as any sort of argument.

Its a well proven fact that retriever trials are set up to accommodate labs, versatiles, GSP's. Ive said it before, when they start incorporating ice covered lakes that need to be busted into trials and -35 weather Ill gladly put my Chesapeake up against any lab, GSP etc etc out there. Case in point, if you do your homework and get ANY breed from proven hunt stock you will likely get a great gun dog.

Sneeze · #**132** 09-10-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jryley

Its a well proven fact that retriever trials are set up to accommodate labs, versatiles, GSP's. Ive said it before, when they start incorporating ice covered lakes that need to be busted into trials and -35 weather Ill gladly put my Chesapeake up against any lab, GSP etc etc out there.

Retriever trials are only open to retrievers, water spaniels & poodles.

Its arguing over nothing.

An excellent dog trainer could take a German Shepard and turn it into the best hunting dog most on this forum have ever seen.

The quality of a dog is in the time and the training.

When choosing a dog - pick a breed that fits your family and lifestyle. Then proceed to spend an hour a night with it turning it into a bird dog.

What you may think is a sloppy retrieve - might be perfect to the young man working with his first dog.

Run what you brought and be happy with the small successes.

Telling everybody you have the biggest wiener can get really embarrassing when somebody challenges you to drop your pants.

Kawibunga · #**133** 09-10-2013, 12:07 PM

"Telling everybody you have the biggest wiener can get really embarrassing when somebody challenges you to drop your pants."

Sneeze, I think that might be my new sig line!

Been enjoying this read as I'm in the same sort of boat. (ignoring the wiener comparing though) My research to date has me leaning toward a female V for a few reasons. I don't like large dogs in the house, I don't want a dog that sheds profusely, I want a friendly docile dog as it will be a family dog first and foremost (3 kids under 9), and I want a dog that I could work grouse and ducks with and we'd learn together. BUT then again I could be on crack as being from the farm I've never had a dog in the house (In Calgary now) and I've never owned a pointer/flusher versitile dog. Closet thing was a big ol awesome black lab on the farm. Would retrieve anything but was scared of lightning and gunshots! No time like the present to learn....... that's my two cents, carry on

Okotokian · #**134** 09-10-2013, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Not true at all, both my dogs are better than their handler.

yeah, but you're dragging down their game.

I'm in the same boat.

Winch101 · #**135** 09-10-2013, 02:13 PM

Jryley ,that's not true .....it's a Kerry Blue terrier that is the first dog to win
A triple crown open Akc title ....it's a Akc sanctioned Viszla event that the same
Dog Magyar something or other ,triple crown , a Viszla was the best in a Viszla only trial...that's fricking unbelievable

Ya it's incredible that not every bird hunter in the country is running a chessie...

I'm surprised you would belittle a national treasure like retriever trials...
You must be against mothers milk , apple pie , church on Sunday ...
Chessies On a steady diet of small children and postmen , smell like something bad gone bad.....I was raised on Chessies on the great Delta Marsh....They are tough
To train, control and bathe regularly , remember one mans trained dog is another
Mans worst nightmare.

I can't believe you would crush Bird dogs dreams like that , I don't think he's

much of a listener , I was going to question those dogs conformation but when
I figured out they likely came from Hungary ,where you can be sold a breeding pair who are siblings. Gypsy,s ya know...different bussiness ethic...

Jack maybe but masters of none ,the sad part is that they are breeding the
Hell out of Viszlas ,another red setter in the making , too bad their a lovely
Dog , a little high strung ,can be single person imprinted very easily, likely
There will be a bevy of them in rescue shelters in the not too distant future ...
That's why I have a dog known as The Supreme Gun Dog ,the king of foot hunting canines....it doesn't matter what kind of dogs others have ,I have
The documented best....Before You ask as I know you will , whenever my faith
In mankind is at its highest ,when I haven't been on a straight diet of *****s
For a while , I go to a dog trial and once am assured that as a civilization
We are headed right in the crapper...and really dog trials are like kids soccer
If you show up often enough ,someone will give you a ribbon ..
Some dogs and goofy owners spend their whole life .....getting a championship
Kids are n rags ,dogs eating filet and ridin in comfort ,go figure

When it comes too training DOGS ,I was in BAGDAD when most people
We're in DADS Bag...

uncle buck · #**136** 09-10-2013, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 32-40win

Uncle Buck, I am a bit confused about your statement, about dogs working at 150-200yds in the bush? I can think of a number of places where I wouldn't be able to get to the dog in any reasonable length of time, if it was out that far on a bird. And there are places in the bush, where a dog can get itself into trouble that far out. At least, those are my first reaction thoughts to that scenario. Something a little haywire in that picture, to me. I know cat hounds do it, dogs trained for turkeys do it, but, can't visualize a normal bird dog out that far. My first thought, is risk of predator encounters in BC and Alberta, and quite a ways south of here. I'd need a quad or a buggy to keep up to a dog in the open at 3-500yds, how do they work that?

Win 32- The purpose of a pointing dog is to search out game. They have a powerful search instinct and I expect them to cover ground that I am not going to walk myself. If a dog is out 200 yards and goes on point it will stand there for as long as it takes me to get there. There is no rush- I rarely have my gun loaded while walking the woods. There is plenty of time to walk in, load the gun and strategize how to best flush the bird for the best possible shooting lane. The same goes in the open. A pointing dog needs to stand it's birds til you get there no matter how long it takes. I'm sure you could walk 150 yards quite comfortably 5-10 minutes. The dogs will learn that if they flush them themselves they don't get any birds shot for them.

On to the others- Dear lord you guys can get side tracked...

The poster said he wanted a pointing dog for grouse. Not a water dog not a duck dog but a pointing dog for grouse.

This may ruffle some feathers but there are 4 mainstream breeds of pointing dogs for a reason. Just to be clear they are English Pointers, English Setters, Brittanies and GSP's. If you buy from hunting lines from any of these breeds your odds of great dog go up. They have been proven over time in Canada and the US in huge range of competitions and have a deep and varied gene pool, with several proven lines within them. You can find a large range of hunting styles within any of these breeds to suit your tastes.

The need to be "unique" is an odd one if you are looking for performance. You are jumping in the shallow end of the gene pool with any of the other pointing breeds. You might get lucky but your chances aren't as strong

ACKLEY ABE · #**137** 09-10-2013, 02:28 PM

QUINTUPLE......

Just for interest sake..and no ..not everyone should own a Vizsla.....I should, but they are not the breed for everyone...in fact probably not a good choice for most people.

American Kennel Club Unveils Portrait Of AKC's First Quintuple Champion

(Thursday, August 10, 2006)

- Dog Recognized as Most Accomplished in AKC’s 122-year History -

New York, NY – The American Kennel Club® announced today that a portrait of the most titled dog in AKC® history, the Vizsla CH FC AFC OTCH MACH Legacy’s DeChartay UDX(5) MH, affectionately known as “Chartay”, will be unveiled in a special ceremony at the AKC Operations Center in Raleigh, NC on August 18, 2006.

Chartay became an AKC Conformation Champion (CH) in 1993; acquired her Field Champion (FC) title and Amateur Field Champion (AFC) titles in April and November 1995, respectively. She went on to earn the Obedience Trial Champion (OTCH) in 1997 and then earned the Master Agility Champion (MACH) title in June 2000.

Winch101 · #**138** 09-10-2013, 02:54 PM

The AKC has come under a lot of scrutiny for their involvement
In these tests ...they are handing out championships like a crazed
Homemaker handing out treats at Halloween...

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...51773540,d.cGE

Their actions have been derisive in the dog world , lot of supporters going to the
UKC ,United Kennel Club ....the second largest registry in the USA...

Even the CKC has taken a dim view of some of the AKC,s new endeavours,
In the area of trials and tests .
It took Chartay her whole life ,to get those championships , to satisfy her
Owner.....sad really ,she probably never got to roll in fish guts , eat a cow
Poop ,get porkied , chase a rabbit for three sections ,all those real hunting dog .

Things...

Here she is now

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...51773540,d.cGE

theycallmeNoah · #**139** 09-10-2013, 02:55 PM

Back to the OP...

We have three Brittanys that we use for upland hunting.

Not sure where they "rank" in terms of bird dogs but we love them. Both hubby and I are relatively inexperienced handlers but our dogs do just fine. I'm sure their form is not great but they find birds and bring them back to us. We are not out to win any awards; just have fun with our dogs and kids.

They are great family pets as well. They are couch potatoes in the house and run like the wind in the field. Their engergy level never ceases to amaze me.

The only advice I'm going to give you is...have fun finding the right dog for YOUR family/hunting needs

M.C. Gusto · #**140** 09-10-2013, 03:25 PM

Whinch, great posts! Like your sense of humour!

jryley · #**141** 09-10-2013, 03:44 PM

joshcat · #**142** 09-10-2013, 03:55 PM

Just received the test scores from the Toronto Navhda Chapter. In the NA test 2 Vizsla's tested both scored 110 prize 1. One lost in tracking and one in search. Both fantastic scores that says that breeder is heading in the right direction. 4 Gsp's scored perfect 112 prize 1. All from different kennels. Again breeders in the right direction. That's a Natural ability test and by no means does it say breed those dogs/bitches. But say a lot for the work being done.

ACKLEY ABE · #**143** 09-10-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshcat

Just received the test scores from the Toronto Navhda Chapter. In the NA test 2 Vizsla's tested both scored 110 prize 1. One lost in tracking and one in search. Both fantastic scores that says that breeder is heading in the right direction. 4 Gsp's scored perfect 112 prize 1. All from different kennels. Again breeders in the right direction. That's a Natural ability test and by no means does it say breed those dogs/bitches. But say a lot for the work being done.

We had 3 V's at ours on Aug 18. NA: 105 Prize 2 110 Prize 1 (my boy) and a 112 Prize 1. All from different breeders...and yes some wonderful GSP's and Pudelpinters as well.

Winch101 · #**144** 09-10-2013, 04:20 PM

I feel about NavDha the way my good friend Jryley feels
About retriever trials ...I been to a couple ,met some new Griffs
And their servants...had a laugh or two...pretty casual .
Wildrose good bunch ...

The Chicken Championship at Mortlach , now that's a test
For pointing Dogs ..

I understand all these hunts and tests ,get more people involved ...
More dogs ,right or wrong are trained for hunting situations...

Good for all sports ,if it becomes somewhat elitist , that's the participants
Fault , the two legged ones ,...

More will be revealed , back yard breeders , a bad thing ,I don't think
There is any malevolence intended ....and I am not totally convinced
That the breed gets any worse , than it likely is....there are two dogs
The one on the ground and the one tween your ears , the myth ...
Like the wire hair with the wire belly hair ...haven't met him yet.....
Maybe he,s in France

M.C. Gusto · #**145** 09-10-2013, 04:58 PM

Mortlach, Broomhill, Border International (which is coming to a close) your talking BIG TIME!!!! I can only dream of owning a dog that could qualify for that. Anyway, your getting me way off topic

The OP (if he is still reading this) should strongly consider getting a field trial/cover dog wash out. Lots of great dogs not making the strings of professionals are being sold cheap. Some finished dead broke! A daughter of the National Champion just sold relatively cheap because of tail set. I would strongly consider going down that road, save you a ton of work.

joshcat · #**146** 09-10-2013, 05:10 PM

Winch The Navhda testing system is a great Test for Pointing dogs. In my experience I find the chicken championships very similar to a field trial. If you have the chance to see a big Navhda test with high scoring UT dogs I am sure you would see it differently. Theat test covers all aspects of the all around hunter. Field work pointing holding to flush and shot, retrieve to hand. Water search, double blind retrieves backing and scent tracking. Mist hunters are general, bug game small game upland and waterfowl. Unfortunatley we can not utilize blood tracking dogs for large game. But to me that is what I want my pointing dog to do.

joshcat · #**147** 09-10-2013, 05:11 PM

Sorry about the spelling iPhones suck

uncle buck · #**148** 09-10-2013, 06:12 PM

Winch and gusto are right. There are many levels of performance. Mortlach, the border etc.. are at the highest level. As you move up the levels fewer dogs can compete. NAVHDA AKC/ CKC are the grass roots of the sport and are fun but don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things pointing dog. All Age American Field is the pro level and the place where the real bettering the breed happens. The competition is fierce and dogs are washed out often that can't quite cut it for what ever reason and are not bred. I have seen these "washouts" win like gangbusters at the lower levels as shooting dogs. They are great dogs but not the best of the best. BTW I've never seen any dog compete with a pointer or setter in an all age trial. Some like slow plodding dogs - I like to watch speed and style and endurance. If I had to hunt behind a rocking horse dog all day it would be less enjoyable.

Gusto is right on the money with a grouse trial dog washout. That would be a great full proof way to go.

aulrich · #**149** 09-10-2013, 09:28 PM

Something I am not getting my mind around, why is speed a requirement in close cover. I see it in the open where cast that are measured in 100 's of yards a 100 yard cast in the grouse country I know would be next to useless. The dog would be way to limited by the hunters speed.

joshcat · #**150** 09-10-2013, 10:19 PM

I am always up for learning something new, or looking at someone else's opinion. I would love to see one of your big running dogs in the thick bush. Is there Anyway we could hook up this season? In return I will run one of my Navhda girls in one of your field trials next season, so you can see my point . This is by no means meant to be cocky or ignorant. I just want to see your field dogs work heavy bush.