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View Poll Results: Do you believe in evolution or creation?
Creation 119 29.38%
Evolution 286 70.62%
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  #211  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:48 AM
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Why have current species of monkeys not evolved into humans?
This is a common misconception among those not familiar with science beyond watching Planet of the Apes movies.
Why would monkeys evolve into humans? Why would the species evolve to take over a niche already occupied by another species when they are perfectly evolved to fill their own niche? This is junior high lever material.
  #212  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:49 AM
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You claim all life evolved from one cell. Would that not mean you somewhere along the line there was only one monkey?
What would lead you to that conclusion?
  #213  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:54 AM
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Institute for creation research? I find it interesting that people question the ideal of long term evolution. First life on earth is estimated to have shown up less than 4 billion years ago, and even then, it definitely wasn't wasn't sentient.

But, lets look at the biblical explanation of life on earth. Some 6000 years ago, Adam and Eve had 2 sons by the name of Cain and Abel. So all life on earth came from the genetics of 2 people. Some 7.5 billion people later - is it possible to have that population of people on the planet in that short of timeframe. Now creationists claim that it is - but one needs to take into account the disasters of the bible. The great flood and Noahs ark for example - some claim doing their own math through ages of individuals in the bible that the flood occurred around 2300 BC and wiped out most life on the planet. Now take into account the millions of people that were killed by disease over the centuries. So in the span of 4300 years - through multiple disasters, people wiped out, how did we get to this population?
Asked and answered:

https://www.thoughtco.com/current-wo...lation-1435270

From year one to 2083 AD (2083 years) world population has grown by 10,000,000,000 (10 billion)

Year/Population
1/200 million
1000/275 million
1500/450 million
1650/500 million
1750/700 million
1804/1 billion
1850/1.2 billion
1900/1.6 billion
1927/2 billion
1950/2.55 billion
1955/2.8 billion
1960/3 billion
1965/3.3 billion
1970/3.7 billion
1975/4 billion
1980/4.5 billion
1985/4.85 billion
1990/5.3 billion
1995/5.7 billion
1999/6 billion
2006/6.5 billion
2009/6.8 billion
2011/7 billion
2025/8 billion
2043/9 billion
2083/10 billion
  #214  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:54 AM
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You claim all life evolved from one cell. Would that not mean you somewhere along the line there was only one monkey?
Ok. Can we agree that species go extinct? That is a fact right? You've heard of the term use it or lose it?

So if so many species have gone extinct - and don't get replaced or evolve into a species or creature that can survive changes - there wouldn't be this abundance of life on the planet. If humans didn't evolve to survive disease, viruses, bacteria - we wouldn't exist today. We would all be dead - extinct.

Do you believe that God currently adds new species to the planet?

The earth itself is not static, plates move, continents move - at a rate that your fingernails grow. It's slow, but lets look at the earth over the course of the 6000 years of the bible. Lets say the average plate moves 4 inches a year - over the course of 6000 years, that's 1/3 of a mile. It may not sound like much - but what effect do you think it's going to have on a climate in specific locations?
  #215  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:56 AM
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Why have current species of monkeys not evolved into humans?

I'm not sure why a fossil that resembles something in between two different species is considered a link. Many species have gone extinct. Why do we draw conclusions using a select few?
The current species of all primates us included are the end results of evolution. You're not going to wake up one day and find small humans living in trees in Madagascar, if you really are blind to this and you prefer to think it's much more likely there is god with a magic wand zapping creatures into existence then by all means think it.

There is no middle ground here.
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  #216  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:57 AM
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I believe it is mathematically impossible because my understanding is that the amount of beneficial mutations required to occur, in the amount of time it takes to accomplish a beneficial mutation, far surpass the amount of time evolutionists have given themselves. I won't take "over billions of years we know" because scientists today know how long it takes for DNA to mutate and the percentage of mutations that are beneficial.
You watched the bacteria and antibiotic study that showed a lot of mutations in a very short period of time.

Did you watch it?
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  #217  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
So.... You really haven't invested any time or effort into the science side of things.

There is no sense in having the conversation.
Believing in god(s) and creation is 'easy' and it really doesn't take much effort or education at all. Recognising and understanding the scientific method and the concept of evolution is much harder, and requires a certain amount of knowledge and education.

There will always be a percentage that take the 'easy' way out. Here on this thread (poll), they = ~ 30%
.
  #218  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:00 PM
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And your faith says something different?
You really don't get it do you? Science requires no faith, it requires how it works. It is not a believe, but a process.

I don't want to get into a meme war, but this one gives a good perspective.

  #219  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:03 PM
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Institute for creation research? I find it interesting that people question the ideal of long term evolution. First life on earth is estimated to have shown up less than 4 billion years ago, and even then, it definitely wasn't wasn't sentient.

But, lets look at the biblical explanation of life on earth. Some 6000 years ago, Adam and Eve had 2 sons by the name of Cain and Abel. So all life on earth came from the genetics of 2 people. Some 7.5 billion people later - is it possible to have that population of people on the planet in that short of timeframe. Now creationists claim that it is - but one needs to take into account the disasters of the bible. The great flood and Noahs ark for example - some claim doing their own math through ages of individuals in the bible that the flood occurred around 2300 BC and wiped out most life on the planet. Now take into account the millions of people that were killed by disease over the centuries. So in the span of 4300 years - through multiple disasters, people wiped out, how did we get to this population?
What about all the animals and birds during the flood? Only those saved on the Ark survived. How many species were saved?

Current estimates are 6.5 million land species. Flooding kills plants. Were plants saved also? How many species?

That was one biggie ship.

Should rename Noah's Ark to Species McSpeciesFace.
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  #220  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CNP View Post
Asked and answered:

https://www.thoughtco.com/current-wo...lation-1435270

From year one to 2083 AD (2083 years) world population has grown by 10,000,000,000 (10 billion)

Year/Population
1/200 million
1000/275 million
1500/450 million
1650/500 million
1750/700 million
1804/1 billion
1850/1.2 billion
1900/1.6 billion
1927/2 billion
1950/2.55 billion
1955/2.8 billion
1960/3 billion
1965/3.3 billion
1970/3.7 billion
1975/4 billion
1980/4.5 billion
1985/4.85 billion
1990/5.3 billion
1995/5.7 billion
1999/6 billion
2006/6.5 billion
2009/6.8 billion
2011/7 billion
2025/8 billion
2043/9 billion
2083/10 billion
Ok, first question. Where is the census data to show the population of the world in year 1. They didn't even know what the world looked like.

Secondly, where on that list does it show the population decline after the black plague swept though and killed over half the population of Europe? How many died from smallpox? Leprosy? Spanish flu? Cholera? There is quite a list of disease alone that killed massive populations.

I'm not even going to get into natural disasters.
  #221  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Wolf View Post
Believing in god(s) and creation is 'easy' and it really doesn't take much effort or education at all. Recognising and understanding the scientific method and the concept of evolution is much harder, and requires a certain amount of knowledge and education.

There will always be a percentage that take the 'easy' way out. Here on this thread (poll), they = ~ 30%
.
If you are congratulating yourself on being on the side of the of the higher percentage I'm going to shock you into reality. The higher percentage you exalt includes just as many of the people you categorize as being ignorant. You could be one of them and that is not a judgement, nor a presumption.........that is a fact.
  #222  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
What about all the animals and birds during the flood? Only those saved on the Ark survived. How many species were saved?

Current estimates are 6.5 million land species. Flooding kills plants. Were plants saved also? How many species?

That was one biggie ship.

Should rename Noah's Ark to Species McSpeciesFace.
Have you ever heard of SEEDS.
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  #223  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
Ok, first question. Where is the census data to show the population of the world in year 1. They didn't even know what the world looked like.

Secondly, where on that list does it show the population decline after the black plague swept though and killed over half the population of Europe? How many died from smallpox? Leprosy? Spanish flu? Cholera? There is quite a list of disease alone that killed massive populations.

I'm not even going to get into natural disasters.
Your red herrings are included in the numbers of course. You tell me the time lapse between Adam and year one. I don't have the answer. My purpose was to reject your assertion that todays population could not develop in 4300 years. That's all. If you can refute the data do so.
  #224  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:12 PM
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Have you ever heard of SEEDS.
Seeds yes. 2 of every creature?

Have sex with a close genetic relative and produce a child - what happens to the offspring?
That's science.

It's not possible to populate a planet with the genetics of one male and one female.
  #225  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:12 PM
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Have you ever heard of SEEDS.
I planted koala seeds and nothing sprouted.

But great to see they travelled quickly all over the world to collect them seeds.



Check how long they had to build the Ark. Then I will allow you to use jet aircraft from today back in time to fly around collecting seeds and two of every animal.

How much time do you give yourself.

Ignore the fact that inbreeding just two animals will likely sterilize the species.

Is it even possible in a lifetime? No.
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  #226  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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If you are congratulating yourself on being on the side of the of the higher percentage I'm going to shock you into reality. The higher percentage you exalt includes just as many of the people you categorize as being ignorant. You could be one of them and that is not a judgement, nor a presumption.........that is a fact.
I remain unshocked, and rest my case
.
  #227  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:29 PM
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Your red herrings are included in the numbers of course. You tell me the time lapse between Adam and year one. I don't have the answer. My purpose was to reject your assertion that todays population could not develop in 4300 years. That's all. If you can refute the data do so.
Interesting. So you believe in the story of Adam and Eve. The ability to populate the world with the genetics of one man and one woman. Essentially, the entire human race has to be a product of incest. That makes me feel much better.
  #228  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:37 PM
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There is reason to believe evaluation happened and is happening today.

Has anyone heard of herbicide resistant weeds or antibiotic resistant germs?

If one pays attention to nature and sees the interconnections between species, the precision of adaptations, and the incredible variety of species, one has to believe there was some intelligence guiding the evaluation process.

It seems to me that the theory of evolution is much like a man seeing a fence for the very first time and assuming that it evolved to be that way by accident.
He sees no creator, he can see that it has parts of trees in it's structure, so he deduces that it evolved from trees.

I think both the theory of evolution and the story of creation are far too simplistic.

But, the story of creation was never meant to be a scientific report. It was only meant to provide primitive minds with a base line from which to start their understanding of the world around them.
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  #229  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:44 PM
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Seeds yes. 2 of every creature?

Have sex with a close genetic relative and produce a child - what happens to the offspring?
That's science.

It's not possible to populate a planet with the genetics of one male and one female.

That kinda shoots down the theory of evolution doesn't it now.

Because at one point in history, all species had to have existed as only two members of that species. If the theory of evolution is correct.
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  #230  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:44 PM
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Final thought for me on this before the thread closes,


Actually laying in your deathbed, you just may completely
betray your current strong held outlook(s)..seen it yet again for myself last May
as my 84yr old, non believing friend, passed away in the hospital full of cancer.
He was 100% anti (was since i met him in 1989)..the human trend seem to point at:

Having strong/current health=
many fooled/reckless/full off pee-vingar/seemingly got it all figured out,
then along comes an unannounced visit from Mr.illness & suddenly a good majority
take to speedily waking up & making almost unbelievable complete
180 turns of years long stances once held, pulling almost a self-betrayal, and leaving those oberserving them
witness for themselves them make 'real-world' decisions.
Being 'healthy in the present' fools many a folk..........

on that note,
"Now listen to the sound of my newly purchased reel
and watch this cast" !!

Last edited by tri777; 06-11-2017 at 12:52 PM.
  #231  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
I planted koala seeds and nothing sprouted.

But great to see they travelled quickly all over the world to collect them seeds.



Check how long they had to build the Ark. Then I will allow you to use jet aircraft from today back in time to fly around collecting seeds and two of every animal.

How much time do you give yourself.

Ignore the fact that inbreeding just two animals will likely sterilize the species.

Is it even possible in a lifetime? No.
Why would seeds have to be collected? Birds and animals would persih in the flood but seeds could float around for months and then germinate and grow with no assisatance from man once the water receeded.
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  #232  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
Interesting. So you believe in the story of Adam and Eve. The ability to populate the world with the genetics of one man and one woman. Essentially, the entire human race has to be a product of incest. That makes me feel much better.
You don't find it interesting at all do you (rhetorical)? Your use of the word "interesting" is your attempt to marginalize my belief/faith and at the same time leave the question/challenge I asked of you, unanswered. Why not engage us and explain your position sans the innuendo that appears to dominate all of your posts. Do you expect to change a persons belief system based on your assertions in this thread? You believe you can do this? Really? Or is it your mission to marginalize those who dare to believe that God is with us?
  #233  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:55 PM
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That kinda shoots down the theory of evolution doesn't it now.

Because at one point in history, all species had to have existed as only two members of that species. If the theory of evolution is correct.
Actually, no it doesn't. If you go back to the video that MarkG posted (think it was him) with the jewish scientist trying to pull apart Darwins theory - there is one large piece of the puzzle that he is missing. He speaks about using computer models to figure out how we came about.

Many believe that one species goes extinct then a new pair carries on as something else.

It's looking more and more like viruses - specifically retro - that forced evolution. If you get a virus - it will invade your cells and inject it's own DNA into your sequence. if said virus gets into your sperm - and modifies your DNA - and you create an offspring...

It's called evolution of the species. What caused us to evolve?

Less than 10% of our genome makes us human - we are not genetically perfect, no species is. What is the rest? What lives in us, on us - and what protects us from it? Why do we not get sick from everything that can kill us - but lives with us? That's called evolutionary immunology - and it is fascinating.
  #234  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:02 PM
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You don't find it interesting at all do you (rhetorical)? Your use of the word "interesting" is your attempt to marginalize my belief/faith and at the same time leave the question/challenge I asked of you, unanswered. Why not engage us and explain your position sans the innuendo that appears to dominate all of your posts. Do you expect to change a persons belief system based on your assertions in this thread? You believe you can do this? Really? Or is it your mission to marginalize those who dare to believe that God is with us?
I use interesting because it is - and it's not trying to marginalize. I was raised catholic - there was a time I believed what you do, I simply don't anymore. i'm not trying to change your belief or faith, just trying to understand why at some point I believed. What made me change to be an athiest - and what keeps people believing. \

I am atheist, I don't hide that fact. I'm done with political correctness - and you have a hard time understanding that. What atheism simply means is that I believe in one less god than you do. If I don't believe in a god, I simply can't believe in the rest of what comes with it.

The bible is full of incest. Was that God's will? It's not allowed today - thankfully. We know now that you cannot create a branch of normal human beings from the genes of brother and sister, or mother and son, or father and daughter.

It's thinking for myself, actually doing some real exploration of science and all the discoveries - and coming to my own conclusions - not someone elses. I got tired of having a priest telling me "don't look over there" and "just have faith". It's the priests, the congregation, the religion that drove me away cause they couldn't answer questions.

i don't listen to the likes of Hitchens or Dawkins, couldn't care less about what they have to say. Anyone that tries to make a living off ridiculing others for any reason isn't my cup of tea.


I have a mind of my own, I like to explore, I like to learn and I like to understand. That unfortunately conflicts with the catholic church - but you may not believe that. I would be declared a heretic and excommunicated for my knowledge and beliefs if I were to try to talk to a priest today.
  #235  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:17 PM
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Default faith vs science and fact vs fiction

Creation vs evolution always seems to end up as faith vs science. The argument about faith always seem to be between fact vs fiction. I think one can have faith in God and be science minded.

I think one can believe in the stories of the Bible without recognizing them as fact documents. There are many contradictions especially in relation to this thread. There are two different creation stories within the one creation story. The flood has two different stories within the one flood story.

One creation story seems to have God declare “let there be light” before he created the sun and the moon and the stars.

The flood? We all know the 2 animals thing? Well within chapter 7 of the first book God tells Noah to take 7 of all clean animals?

If the Bible was a book of fact, it would have been on the scrap heap and burned 2 thousand years ago.

I would contend that the Bible has survived not because of fact but of stories that inspire one to know the truth of being.

I think that one can have faith in God, with or without the Bible.

I think one can believe in the Bible without leaving common sense behind.

On the other hand if Science is to be believed one must be presented with facts and not stories.

There is room in my world for both faith and science.

By the way “The hills are alive with the sound of music” is not factual but for some it is true.
  #236  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:20 PM
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Evolution is obvious to anyone with any scientific inkling. BBC's Inside Nature's Giants does a great job showing why many of the worlds largest animals adapted the way they did. There are also a billion other examples a guy can use to prove the point but no point explaining them all because the naysayers refuse to listen to science anyways...

Creationism will always be argued because some people just can't fathom that life could possibly exist without some supernatural involvement. My question to you is what godly thing created the godly thing that created us? When does that never ending loop stop? What seems more realistic

A) A supernatural entity(with no physical or scientific proof of ever existing) magically appear and then deciding to create life.

B) Somehow the creation of the most basic of atoms that which over millions of years combined to form life as we know it.

Most religions are thousands of years old at most. The earth alone is billions of years old... Religions commenting on creationism are nothing more then theories written by crazy men. Christianity as an example was created to control peasants. To make them fear and listen to the elites who wanted to control the world... Now a days it blows my mind that so much of society can choose to be ignorant to what was an obvious hoax...

And with that I will make sure not to reopen this thread... No point arguing with the unreasonable...
  #237  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Creation vs evolution always seems to end up as faith vs science. The argument about faith always seem to be between fact vs fiction. I think one can have faith in God and be science minded.

I think one can believe in the stories of the Bible without recognizing them as fact documents. There are many contradictions especially in relation to this thread. There are two different creation stories within the one creation story. The flood has two different stories within the one flood story.

One creation story seems to have God declare “let there be light” before he created the sun and the moon and the stars.

The flood? We all know the 2 animals thing? Well within chapter 7 of the first book God tells Noah to take 7 of all clean animals?

If the Bible was a book of fact, it would have been on the scrap heap and burned 2 thousand years ago.

I would contend that the Bible has survived not because of fact but of stories that inspire one to know the truth of being.

I think that one can have faith in God, with or without the Bible.

I think one can believe in the Bible without leaving common sense behind.

On the other hand if Science is to be believed one must be presented with facts and not stories.

There is room in my world for both faith and science.

By the way “The hills are alive with the sound of music” is not factual but for some it is true.
Much of what Christianity teaches is good. There is no denying that. As you say much of the stories used to convey those teachings are obviously false though...

I can't personally accept a religion built on lies even if it does have lots of good things to know.

What I have chosen to do instead is believe in doing what is right. Some of that I learned from growing up in a Christian household but some of it I have formed my own opinion on as well. All Christians do this but unlike myself most don't choose to denounce the religion and rather pick and choose the parts they think are correct/should be accepted.
  #238  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Creation vs evolution always seems to end up as faith vs science. The argument about faith always seem to be between fact vs fiction. I think one can have faith in God and be science minded.

I think one can believe in the stories of the Bible without recognizing them as fact documents. There are many contradictions especially in relation to this thread. There are two different creation stories within the one creation story. The flood has two different stories within the one flood story.

One creation story seems to have God declare “let there be light” before he created the sun and the moon and the stars.

The flood? We all know the 2 animals thing? Well within chapter 7 of the first book God tells Noah to take 7 of all clean animals?

If the Bible was a book of fact, it would have been on the scrap heap and burned 2 thousand years ago.

I would contend that the Bible has survived not because of fact but of stories that inspire one to know the truth of being.

I think that one can have faith in God, with or without the Bible.

I think one can believe in the Bible without leaving common sense behind.

On the other hand if Science is to be believed one must be presented with facts and not stories.

There is room in my world for both faith and science.

By the way “The hills are alive with the sound of music” is not factual but for some it is true.
Well said.

I know I don't have all the answers and I know that when my life is over that won't matter. Not to me or to anyone who comes after me.

In the end the only thing that will matter is who we believed.

Believing an honest man will never lead to regret, believing someone with a selfish agenda is folly.

BTY “The hills are alive with the sound of music” is not factual but for some it is true.

That depends on what one calls music. If birds do in fact sing, then it is music.

And that's the problem I have with science. Science sets the ground rules, decides what the definitions are and then claims to be unbiased.
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Last edited by KegRiver; 06-11-2017 at 02:08 PM.
  #239  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:08 PM
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58thecat 58thecat is online now
 
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As man we have evolved to the point that we put pen to paper and documented things, passed on, stories that were written and we all know how the stories turn out, one imagination tends to twist things a bit but it was written during a time in which only the few, or privilidge Were ever given the tools to provide writings, scripts, etc and as men evolved to this stage they realized that with a strong following, if you didn't you died, armies formed and conquered others, there was power within, we evolved to that, to this day we continue to evolve, sometimes as in the past mistakes are made but in the end it's all part of evolving.
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
Much of what Christianity teaches is good. There is no denying that. As you say much of the stories used to convey those teachings are obviously false though...

I can't personally accept a religion built on lies even if it does have lots of good things to know.

What I have chosen to do instead is believe in doing what is right. Some of that I learned from growing up in a Christian household but some of it I have formed my own opinion on as well. All Christians do this but unlike myself most don't choose to denounce the religion and rather pick and choose the parts they think are correct/should be accepted.
Stories meant to express a concept that can not easily be put into words are not always factual but that does not mean that it is false.

I do not accept most man made religions but I d respect most of the stories that might be held to reveal some sacred truth. Faith is not built on lies.

Doing what you think is right is very important but for the most part does not come from religion but from faith.

Once one knows what is right there is no need to denounce anything especially someone else's faith.

The truth is the truth if you believe it or not. What you believe will effect your life if it is true or not.

To the one who said that religion was invented to control the peasants I can understand that thinking. However I think that the faith and teaching of one peasant was hijacked and re worked to control an empire.
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