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  #181  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:54 AM
avb3 avb3 is offline
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Right back atcha. Explain your question.

Now your turn to quit evading. I jump at the chance to learn from the knowledgeable.
Good grief.

I asked a simple question, you come back with a plethora of unrelated questions, with no attempt to respond to the question.

What's to explain?

If you know your bible, you know that the prophets said the messiah would be of the line of David. You know that, right?

So, explain how Jesus could be from the line of David, if Joseph was not the father. You do know that Luke and Matthew differ on the number of generations, but let's leave that one alone for now, as both attempt to show that Jesus is descendant from David.

You DO understand the question now, do you?
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  #182  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:54 AM
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Carbon dating has been proven to be a sham. And you did say it killed everything. Just how do you know it was the shrew that survived? How did it alone survive? The leaps and contortions you crazies go through to prove nothing....
It was 'disproven' by people who don't know how Carbon Dating works. Were you listening to Kent Hovind or something?

Carbon Dating is known to only be accurate on non-aquatic creatures, and then only effective to about 50,000 years because the half-life of carbon is only some 4300 years. The reason for this is because after about 50,000 years, there is no carbon left in a fossil. The reason it doesn't work on aquatic creatures is because they absorb carbon directly from the water thus causing very wonky readings. The people who have 'disproved' carbon dating neglect to mention that scientists know exactly what the limitations of the method are.

When carbon dating cannot be used, they then go on to Potassium-Argon dating, which uses specific radioactive isotopes (argon,) which have a half-life of 1.3 billion years and thus can be read for a fairly accurate dating of an object over pretty much the entirety of the time life has existed on this planet.

I can't answer the rest because willful ignorance makes me want to vomit in anger and profanity is bubbling on the surface. Off to watch dog videos or something.
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  #183  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:03 PM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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762 Russian said, "Ugh, I don't even know why I bothered to post. The scientifically illiterate never read anything and never want to understand..."

Presuming a bit much there aren't ya? Why do you suggest people of faith are "scientifically illiterate"? Is that what you are suggesting?

I could also say, in the same tone of 'voice', "Those who are illiterate in matters of faith never read anything and never want to understand ..."

Pretty broad brush there, paintin' a rather broad streak, me thinks!

In my, and I think it's safe to say, Biblical Christian worldview paradigm we give a lot of credit to science, and see science and scientific endeavors as a vital tool God has given us to use to explore the wonders and mysteries of 'the creation' - and solve them. In fact, I believe God wants and expects us, human beings, to use science in our role and purpose for being. An huge amount of science has been, and is being, done by Christians and people of other faith traditions.

Would you disagree, or agree?
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  #184  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:06 PM
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They are related... see my post here
I've heard that before, thanks for reminding me.
I have a question though, what time frame is necessary for, in that view, one thing to become something entirely different by means of a process of micro-evolution? What guides / governs such a process? Does it ever stop?
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  #185  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:07 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Which 40 authors? If I recall correctly, there are four gospel writers, then a whole bunch of stuff by the only real person anyone can agree on, Paul, and whoever wrote Revelations, which some say is the same John who is attributed to the one gospel.

Who are the approximate other 36?
Isaiah, Ezra, Matthew, John, Paul, Moses, Luke, Joshua, Jeremiah, Mordecai, David, Solomon, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Jude, Peter, James, John Mark, plus some unknowns and or possibles.
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  #186  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:15 PM
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The same way an adopted son or daughter is part of a family today.
Joseph was recognized as Jesus' adoptive father, thus receiving all the rights and privileges of a biological son. In the times, lineage was traced through the presumed father - and just about everybody presumed Joseph as the father, which Joseph himself accepted.
Besides that, Mary was also a descendant of David; here's a link: http://christiananswers.net/dictiona...erofjesus.html
Jewish law dictated that a lineage was traced through the father, and the messianic prophecies were made in that light. Which is one of the reasons Jews do not accept that the prophecy was ever fulfilled.

BTW, Jewish law does not accept tracing of an adopted child to the lineage of the father. Never did, still doesn't.

A rabbi's discussion on this issue says:
He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.
THAT is the Jewish interpretation, and Jesus was a Jew, right?

Methinks a Rabbi has more credibility on determining who is a Jew as opposed to a non-Jew, right?
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  #187  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Isaiah, Ezra, Matthew, John, Paul, Moses, Luke, Joshua, Jeremiah, Mordecai, David, Solomon, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Jude, Peter, James, John Mark, plus some unknowns and or possibles.
How can OT books say he EXISTED, when there is a best, prophesies that he WILL? Saying something will happen is hardly proof that it did.
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  #188  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:23 PM
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I've heard that before, thanks for reminding me.
I have a question though, what time frame is necessary for, in that view, one thing to become something entirely different by means of a process of micro-evolution? What guides / governs such a process? Does it ever stop?
Time frame varies, as mutation changes vary. Bacterial and micro-organisms can be relatively fast, complex organisms very slow.

There is no evidence that it does stop, however, there are significant "dead ends" that have occurred in the past. And will in the future.

But the overall process does not stop.
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  #189  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:28 PM
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Default Unfullfilled prophesies

A challenge for those of the Christian faith (I am not presuming that there are not followers of other faiths on this board).

There are a number of Messianic prophecies outlined in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill.

They include:
  • world peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4)
  • the entire world did not acknowledge G-d as the one true G-d (Zechariah 14:9)
  • the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
  • and Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12).

There's' a bunch more, but these are a good example.
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  #190  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:39 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 762Russian View Post
It was 'disproven' by people who don't know how Carbon Dating works. Were you listening to Kent Hovind or something?

Carbon Dating is known to only be accurate on non-aquatic creatures, and then only effective to about 50,000 years because the half-life of carbon is only some 4300 years. The reason for this is because after about 50,000 years, there is no carbon left in a fossil. The reason it doesn't work on aquatic creatures is because they absorb carbon directly from the water thus causing very wonky readings. The people who have 'disproved' carbon dating neglect to mention that scientists know exactly what the limitations of the method are.
Sure, but preconceived notions shape the interpreted data.

Quote:
When carbon dating cannot be used, they then go on to Potassium-Argon dating, which uses specific radioactive isotopes (argon,) which have a half-life of 1.3 billion years and thus can be read for a fairly accurate dating of an object over pretty much the entirety of the time life has existed on this planet.
(Karpinskaya TB, Ostrovshiy IA, Shanin LL: Synthetic introduction of argon into mica at high pressures and temperatures. Isv Akad Nauk S. S. S. R Geol Ser 1961; 8:87-9)

It appears that potassium-argon results can also be skewed. I read of a paper considered to be a "classic" which threw out about 80% of the data as it did not fit.

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I can't answer the rest because willful ignorance makes me want to vomit in anger and profanity is bubbling on the surface. Off to watch dog videos or something.
Well if it's willful ignorance, prove it wrong. Pick an easy one. Why be bitter? I'll research your the tenets of your beliefs, why not match me on that?
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  #191  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:43 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
How can OT books say he EXISTED, when there is a best, prophesies that he WILL? Saying something will happen is hardly proof that it did.
Ok, that's a fair point. But the prophesy came true and the New Testament agrees with that.
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  #192  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:58 PM
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Ok, that's a fair point. But the prophesy came true and the New Testament agrees with that.
Well, there certainly is an attempt to show the NT corresponding to prophesies (lineage to David is only one example).

We have discussed in other responses the problems with many or most of them, so no sense repeating it.

Now, as I have stated before, if one was to look at the bible as a metaphorical and allegorical spiritual guidance source, it becomes much more relevant then a literal one.

In fact, if one reads John, and certainly Paul, it is clear their discussions are allegorical and not historical.

The curious thing is that Paul was the first written NT chapters, and the synoptics don't relate to John.
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  #193  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
A challenge for those of the Christian faith (I am not presuming that there are not followers of other faiths on this board).

There are a number of Messianic prophecies outlined in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill.

They include:
  • world peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4)
  • the entire world did not acknowledge G-d as the one true G-d (Zechariah 14:9)
  • the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
  • and Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12).

There's' a bunch more, but these are a good example.
We're not quite done yet! Some of these are talking about the second coming. If you stay in the prophesies you'll note that there are a bunch that have come true, such as Israel's independence, triumph over larger nations, rebuilding of Holy Cities and financial success for the country.
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  #194  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:07 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Have you solved my puzzles yet? These point to a literal translation, so you should have some fun with it.
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  #195  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:22 PM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
A challenge for those of the Christian faith (I am not presuming that there are not followers of other faiths on this board).

There are a number of Messianic prophecies outlined in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill.

They include:
  • world peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4)
  • the entire world did not acknowledge G-d as the one true G-d (Zechariah 14:9)
  • the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
  • and Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12).

There's' a bunch more, but these are a good example.
Simple answer: 'cause we ain't done yet!

The long answer is a lot more complicated, and requires a broad understanding of 'prophecy'. Some prophecies have a 'partially fulfilled' component to them. Rest assured that when Jesus returns they will all be fulfilled.

Isaiah 2:1-4 is not saying "When Jesus (the Messiah) comes, then ..." It says, "In the last days ..." Big difference. We are, in the times between Jesus human birth and His return, living in the "last days" when the prophecy is coming to fulfilment.

Zechariah 14:9 - same thing - note the future tense, "will be" - means it's coming. In one sense Jesus, "the Lord" is already King over all the earth.
Oh, oh, that answers a previous question you asked that I didn't bother answering - about theocracy. Yup, I believe we live in a theocracy where Jesus is King - absolutely, and our governments / rulers are under His authority ----- they just don't know it yet! They will, as will everybody - atheists and agnostics included - when he returns as "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Revelation 19:16).

Ezekiel 37:26-28 - don't forget the dangers of extrapolating select verses out of broader context and future tense! Not talking about 'temple' - rather, talking about 'the new covenant', terms (using NIV translation) "sanctuary", "dwelling place" are not referring directly to a physical 'temple' built of building construction materials like wood and stone and such.
NT clarity - the 'temple' is the people of God, the 'body' of Christ - see 1 Peter 2:4-10. This 'temple' is being built right now and will be 'complete' when Jesus returns.

Isaiah 11:10-12 - is this not happening? It is in process.

Note: I'm not going to answer every question and respond to every comment. That would take more than a lifetime. And you'd still have more questions and comments anyway. I'm not sure why you persist in this strategy of 'debate' - is it to try to 'poke' holes' in the Bible and thus in believers' faith? Or is it honestly a search for understanding? If the former I'm done with you. If it's the latter, I may continue.

The Bible must be taken as a whole, it tells one story and all the parts reinforce and sufficiently 'interpret' the other parts to sustain the revelation of God and thus faith in Him.

Does it give every answer to every question people can raise with absolute clarity everyone can agree on? - No. History has more than proven that.

Does it give enough answers to sustain faith and trust and hope and joy in God? YES! ----- If one, through the blessing of the Holy Spirit of God who helps in understanding, honestly seeks those answers - see verses like Proverbs 8:16, Jeremiah 29:13, Lamentations 3:25.
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  #196  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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Hey! Tactical Lever - we said the same thing I was typing while you were posting.
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  #197  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Nice try, but calendars CAN be reconciled and harmonized, unlike many Biblical passages.

So, seeing Joseph was not Jesus's father, how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?
But they didn't. How do you go back in years just to fix an inaccurate calender? Does this mean we're back in 2007?
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  #198  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Hey! Tactical Lever - we said the same thing I was typing while you were posting.
You said it better though. I got a little lazy on the answer. Thanks for answering the question on lineage.
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  #199  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:41 PM
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Simple answer: 'cause we ain't done yet!
We will have to disagree whether the prophesies related to the first or second coming. Yes, I can get into a long dissertation of that, but it will all be disputed by saying "the interpretation is wrong".


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The Bible must be taken as a whole, it tells one story and all the parts reinforce and sufficiently 'interpret' the other parts to sustain the revelation of God and thus faith in Him.
You know, we may agree on that, it has to be taken as a whole. (I'm not sure sure I would include Revelations and Daniel, but that is another story).

But that would also mean one would accept the teaching from a metaphorical and allegorical perspective, rather then attempt to "prove" historicity and literalness.

I have said it before, if one takes a non-literal view, then the bible can be a powerful spiritual guide book.

The literal view is where it all falls apart.

Most who have responded in defense of the bible have attempted to promulgate the literal view.
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  #200  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:07 PM
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and there is problems with taking it literally

Translation, hand written script to newer methods, etc.

It is a great guide, but one must remember that it has been given the once over quite a few times.
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  #201  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:14 PM
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and there is problems with taking it literally

Translation, hand written script to newer methods, etc.

It is a great guide, but one must remember that it has been given the once over quite a few times.
you have that right huntin, if the bible helps you through your day, and going to church makes you a better person then that's fine with me, im not trying to make anybody believe anything I believe, im playing from a defencive position, if you want to tell me how to live my life and who I should associate with because of your beliefs that is a problem with me.
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  #202  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:23 PM
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Default Religious tolerance?

Food for thought for the literal interpretation of revealed texts.

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  #203  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:53 PM
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:56 PM
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  #205  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:58 PM
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my personal favorite.

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  #206  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:19 PM
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Yes.
Religion is man made. Being religious is personal beliefs.

I am Christian. I dont knock on doors.

I'm also for eliminating terrorist dirtbags. I said I was Christian, I never claimed to be a shining example though. I know my limits.

Being Catholic, I am also in favour of executing clergy who molest children. I also believe in executing plumbers, doctors, and anyone else who molests children.

I do not believe in huge buildings of worship, adorned with expensive finishings. I prefer simple.
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  #207  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:29 PM
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Yes.
Religion is man made. Being religious is personal beliefs.

I am Christian. I dont knock on doors.

I'm also for eliminating terrorist dirtbags. I said I was Christian, I never claimed to be a shining example though. I know my limits.

Being Catholic, I am also in favour of executing clergy who molest children. I also believe in executing plumbers, doctors, and anyone else who molests children.

I do not believe in huge buildings of worship, adorned with expensive finishings. I prefer simple.
Which is the way any spiritual living should be... for oneself. Nothing you have said here is something anyone should be against.
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  #208  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:33 PM
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I guess you missed my post earlier about this point, athiesm is not a religion and if it is then abstenence is a sexual position, athiesm is lack of religion, it's a way for religious folk to square the circle on athiests and say look you believe something too, although it doesn't work good try, the fact of the matter is I am not afraid to say "I don't know" where everything came from, but that doesn't mean I have to believe something that is unbeliveable, there is no sky daddy with a beard who watches you.
http://creation.com/atheism-a-religion

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  #209  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:36 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=CCAF5ED6BED68C36

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  #210  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:36 PM
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[QUOTE=30Cal;1298933]
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to prove me wrong about my point, you reinforce it?
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