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View Poll Results: Allow .223” diam. bullets as new min. for hunting?
Yes 140 38.25%
No 207 56.56%
Undecided 19 5.19%
Voters: 366. You may not vote on this poll

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  #241  
Old 08-08-2018, 03:58 PM
KodiakHntr KodiakHntr is offline
 
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Originally Posted by trigger7mm View Post
We owe to the animals to kill them as quickly and cleanly as possible. Too much room for error with the smaller caliber. I could kill deer all day long with my .204 or even my .22 mag. Would I go out and do it...not a chance in hell. This topic is a no brainer in my humble opinion.

So that right there says it all pretty much. Zero idea of what a 22 CF with a reasonable bullet will actually do to a game animal.

My ex was a competitive shooter for a lot of years. The last deer she shot with me was a medium muley, about 150" buck. 163 yards, trotting after his does that we jumped out of draw. She laid down in the snow over the edge of the knife ridge, and tracked him in the scope as he followed the trail they took. He turned broadside and I grunted at him, and told her to put it right through his near shoulder halfway up. At the shot he folded like he'd been electrocuted and rolled about 100 yards down the hill till he hung up in some brush. That deer couldn't have been any deader any quicker had she been shooting my 300 Ultra. In fact, I bet he'd have gone a lot farther than straight down had she used my 300 Ultra.

She'd put about 100 rounds through that rifle shooting grapefruit and beer cans with 40 gr vmax's earlier that fall out to 300+ yards. Guess what flies real similar to a 40 gr vmax? A 45 gr TSX.

That tiny little bullet sent at 3800fps MV punched a 2" hole through the onside shoulder joint, through the lungs, through the offside shoulder blade, and was found under the hide on the other side. Weight was 45 grs.

Damage to the vitals was indistinguishable from what you would expect from a 30 30 at 100 yards. Pretty sure not many folks would argue that a 30 30 isn't enough for deer at 100 yards......

Last edited by KodiakHntr; 08-08-2018 at 04:06 PM.
  #242  
Old 08-08-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
The difference is .223 bullets kinetic energy compared to the total weight of the arrows momentum.
In which placed in the right area both will kill as long as you stay within its effective range, sounds real easy to me, don't understand what the hick up is on this thread.
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  #243  
Old 08-08-2018, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Lou View Post
Dare I post? Whatever. Flame me if you care to do so.

I’ve only once seen the results of a .223 projectile on a deer. Distance might have been 125 yards. 3.5 year old buck. One moment he was standing there loud and proud. At the report of the rifle, he vanished. We watched the spot. Not a sound, twitch, leg kick. Walked up and there lay our prize. I have no idea what the projectile design or weight was as it was long before I was paying attention to such things in detail and I wasn’t doing the shooting. Honestly, I was a little more than surprised on how it flattened that buck.

I don’t think there is any arguing that a .223 projectile can in fact be very effective medicine - used within it’s reasonable parameters. Sure, there’s some validity in concern over Tom, Dick, Harry and the like running a Varmint bullet but I feel it’s a slimmer chance of occurring at best. The same opportunity exists with our minimums as is. Isn’t part of this why a lot of us handload? So we can have control over using a projectile that best suits intended use. I love shooting bug holes as much as the next guy but it isn’t the be all and end all. We have the ability to play with and tweak the variables to suit intended use and everything out there has thresholds to operate effectively in. Personally, I love enjoying having those capabilities.

I know I’d be much more comfortable taking that same shot I witnessed with that exact combo than I would have been with my .460 Wby running 500gr solids. Who wouldn’t? It’s a poor choice for the intended use. That deer would most likely have torn out of there on a dead run with two .458 cal holes until it bled out. No arguing dead is dead but I’d much rather flatten my quarry where it stands.

Would a .223 projectile flinging rifle be my first choice? No. I prefer to be looking at more horse power than looking for it.

Would I hesitate to use a .223 projectile flinging rifle with a well suited pill for the task at hand? No. I’ve seen first hand that it’s very capable in the right hands and that deer would have been no more dead than it was had I squeezed the trigger instead.

My kids are close in age to Chuck’s. If it were legal here and when the time came; if either or both of them shot a .223 cal cartridge better than my .243/6mm cal cartridges, I’d much rather have them drawing down with something they are comfortable with. I’d have worked up the load. A suitable projectile and I sure hope I’m right by their sides in that moment. It’d be a situation where they’ve been set up to succeed. Not fail. I believe the bulk of folks who choose to go this route would be of similar mind.

I don’t look down my nose at folks who choose something different to employ than I do. For the record, my go to is currently a 300RUM but on any given day, you may find me running a 6mmAI, 257 Wby, 280 Rem, 300 Wby, 35 Whelen etc depending on the game I’m pursuing. If the .223 offerings were permitted then perhaps a smaller cartridge could be part of that list too. As stated previous, not my first choice but I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that I or someone else could get the job done in a clean and efficient manner.
Nice post Big Lou.
Maybe the time will come, maybe not.

Young kids grow up in time, so it will still work out for them when they get older,,, purhaps this might be a plus or a negative.

It's all good no matter what F&G decide in the years to come, even I'm partly intrigued in a smaller caliber of rifle,,, but I'm ok in the middle category since my body said so. LOL

Cheers
  #244  
Old 08-08-2018, 05:47 PM
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No one cares what you use either
Just keep it legal in the area you use it
Since you can’t use it here for big game
Go Elsewhere and tell us how it works for you

Big talker Betty crocker
You are welcome to come shoot with me as well. Big talker indeed.
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  #245  
Old 08-08-2018, 05:50 PM
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I was under the assumption that you needed a minimum of 1000 ft lbs to humanely kill a white tail; 1200 ft lbs for a mulie and 1500 ft lbs for Elk and Moose. Am I wrong? that being said, if my assumptions are right, then bullet size does matter?
  #246  
Old 08-08-2018, 05:55 PM
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I was under the assumption that you needed a minimum of 1000 ft lbs to humanely kill a white tail; 1200 ft lbs for a mulie and 1500 ft lbs for Elk and Moose. Am I wrong? that being said, if my assumptions are right, then bullet size does matter?
I think there are Tens of Thousands of deer across North America that would say a 223 is plenty enough to kill them.
  #247  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
You are welcome to come shoot with me as well. Big talker indeed.
Talk is cheap

I’m debating on what name to call you?
Maybe “Wayne” or “the great one” or “gretz”

Or on the other end of the spectrum
Bret Hart
“The best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be”?

For a guy that talks such a big game and isn’t out hunting in the far north or Africa right now. I’m really having a hard time Buying what your selling?

Sorry to the mods didn’t mean to derail the thread
But this one left the tracks a long time ago
  #248  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by marky_mark View Post
Talk is cheap

I’m debating on what name to call you?
Maybe “Wayne” or “the great one” or “gretz”

Or on the other end of the spectrum
Bret Hart
“The best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be”?

For a guy that talks such a big game and isn’t out hunting in the far north or Africa right now. I’m really having a hard time Buying what your selling?

Sorry to the mods didn’t mean to derail the thread
But this one left the tracks a long time ago

Why don't you just call him Chuck? Better yet, why don't you take Chuck up on his offer and prove you can out shoot a nine year old?


My money's on Chucks kid.

Who's doing the cheap talking? I think Chuck made the offer and the ball is in your court.
  #249  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:40 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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According to your idea on how things work, a bow and arrow would be more effective than any normal hunting rifle.... SD is not all that matters. Monometal bullets vs lead soft point also disproves your SD arguement.
Probably 60-70% of my big game has been taken with a bow. It’s no different than with rifles. Hit the good stuff and they are close. Hit them elsewhere and it’s a win some lose some affair. Ke/momentum/weight/diam. All pretty useless numbers to gauge kill potential...seeing as most cartridges are more than enough and you want to compare them properly, use s.d. And impact velocity as your main measures, that’s what tells you what’s going to happen given an appropriate bullet construction for game intended. Maybe that’s the problem?...bowhunting teaches you plenty. But also bell and 1100 elephants or the 53 gr .22 cal from a .22-250 out penetrating a 375 h&h etc. Some numbers matter, some really don’t.
  #250  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by trooper View Post
I was under the assumption that you needed a minimum of 1000 ft lbs to humanely kill a white tail; 1200 ft lbs for a mulie and 1500 ft lbs for Elk and Moose. Am I wrong? that being said, if my assumptions are right, then bullet size does matter?
Those were the generally accepted minimums .. that is until some new concepts arrived. According to the resident guru(s) on here, KE, cross-sectional area and momentum are now things of the past, but you are correct - bullet size, and weight, does matter and sticking close to those minimums will seldom let you down.
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Last edited by Salavee; 08-08-2018 at 07:04 PM.
  #251  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:57 PM
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I was under the assumption that you needed a minimum of 1000 ft lbs to humanely kill a white tail; 1200 ft lbs for a mulie and 1500 ft lbs for Elk and Moose. Am I wrong? that being said, if my assumptions are right, then bullet size does matter?
Just old rules of thumb. For the most part they will guide you correctly, as most cartridges we choose from can deliver those numbers inside our typical kill ranges of 300 yrds or less.

The most accurate rules of thumb are s.d. And impact velocity...assuming bullet construction appropriate for game intended. If you go light on s.d. Then you need to compensate with a crapload more impact velocity. If you have big s.d. Then you can hit em a lot slower. The whole thing is a sliding scale and each class of animal needs more or less. There’s an efficiency loss with high velocity low s.d. Imo, for the recoil or powder burned you get more from high s.d. And moderate impact velocities.
  #252  
Old 08-08-2018, 07:39 PM
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Just old rules of thumb. For the most part they will guide you correctly, as most cartridges we choose from can deliver those numbers inside our typical kill ranges of 300 yrds or less.

The most accurate rules of thumb are s.d. And impact velocity...assuming bullet construction appropriate for game intended. If you go light on s.d. Then you need to compensate with a crapload more impact velocity. If you have big s.d. Then you can hit em a lot slower. The whole thing is a sliding scale and each class of animal needs more or less. There’s an efficiency loss with high velocity low s.d. Imo, for the recoil or powder burned you get more from high s.d. And moderate impact velocities.
Finally ! He's on to it !! Why not just call it a heavy for caliber bullet and be done with it? They come with their own higher SD's and more momentum.
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  #253  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:21 PM
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Hahahahaha!!!
This just keeps getting better.

I can’t help but wonder how the conversation would be different around a table.
  #254  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:42 PM
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No apology given champ, even your prodigies can miss high by a meter at 1035 yards,,keep teaching em the good stuff, they will be on here next singing their kids praises on the no back stop shooting skills grandpa taught them,,champ


For some reason this comes to mind.

You sure showed him........ bahahaha!

  #255  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:09 PM
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As to the rest of the nay sayers (for whatever their reasons may be) here in BC I could have legally hunted on my last grizzly draw with a 17 Hornet had I felt so inclined. I chose something different however, and it was wonderfully effective.

.
So why didn't you use your .17 hornet on your grizz? Common sense maybe?
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  #256  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post

Shoot as big a cartridge as you possibly can and go hunting.
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You had better be hunting with a 600 nitro express or you're the biggest hypocrite on the planet. From experience I'd bet money you don't own a 600 nitro!
And from that statement you got 600 NE out of it? Kinda grasping at straws ain't ya kurt?
Think what he is saying is shoot what you are comfortable with, and shoot well. If that's a .378 wby...fantastic. If all you can handle and shoot effectively is a 6.5 needmore, so be it.
I know I sure wouldn't be comfortable with a 600 NE, not many would be
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  #257  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:21 PM
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So why didn't you use your .17 hornet on your grizz? Common sense maybe?
It's been done and documented way back in the 70's with a 17 Ackley- on a bet mind you, and I certainly would not hunt Grizz with a small caliber rifle!
Cat
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  #258  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:24 PM
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Not sure what happened to a post I saw on here earlier, was too busy trying to get some hay wrapped up to respond and it seems to have disappeared now. Was an invite to go shooting in pajamas or something. Borderline creepy. Anyways chuck, as much as I would love to head on down to Pincher, would be great to see my old buddy Wayne N. again, I really don't think we would hit it off that well, pretty sure we couldn't be friends, so I will have to decline
Do say hi to Wayne for me though. I really should give him a shout one day.
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  #259  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:25 PM
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I'm ok I think.

Learned alot, hopefully I didn't ruffle to many Feather, and a darn proud to see Chuck with family having a good time.

My cartrage has Good SD, moderate speed, and I'm good to go.

Thanks SC, since you have numbers beyond my reach, as well as everyone else.

It will work out one way or the other one would think.

I see the old way at looking at things might be different, but the old system kind of has its way of remaining.

Tomorrow when the lights come on in the little gun shop, there will still be endless rows of guns for sale in many different calibers and cartrages.

Lots of bling, tack, and hardware beyond a persons wildest dreams.

It's all good since many of us here are soon to enter into the wilds.

Shoot small, shoot straight, shoot well.

I did like the refresher brought up on this thread, I first heard these words 40 some odd years ago,,, I'm sure they have been around long before that.

90% hunter, 10% gun in hand.

Cheers all, it's been a slice until the next awesome thread gets underway.

Medium size gun as long as I remain,,, I think Billy Bishop used those words. Ha
  #260  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Not sure what happened to a post I saw on here earlier, was too busy trying to get some hay wrapped up to respond and it seems to have disappeared now. Was an invite to go shooting in pajamas or something. Borderline creepy. Anyways chuck, as much as I would love to head on down to Pincher, would be great to see my old buddy Wayne N. again, I really don't think we would hit it off that well, pretty sure we couldn't be friends, so I will have to decline
Do say hi to Wayne for me though. I really should give him a shout one day.
Mods cleaned it up, actually surprised it wasnt locked
  #261  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:50 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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And from that statement you got 600 NE out of it? Kinda grasping at straws ain't ya kurt?
Think what he is saying is shoot what you are comfortable with, and shoot well. If that's a .378 wby...fantastic. If all you can handle and shoot effectively is a 6.5 needmore, so be it.
I know I sure wouldn't be comfortable with a 600 NE, not many would be
Well I figure I'm only 225lbs and can handle a 338-378 with no problems, surely the big guys here could handle the 600 nitro???

As with all the cartridge/caliber threads there's a lot of talk with only bits of facts, and a whole lot of denial. When guys who have actual experience speak up and lay out the facts have guys who have no expirience argue the facts, one of the two guys look pretty foolish.
  #262  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:04 PM
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Well I figure I'm only 225lbs and can handle a 338-378 with no problems, surely the big guys here could handle the 600 nitro???

.
A 338-378 has about 41 ft/lbs of recoil energy. A 600 NE is over 150.
1f you need to be 225lbs to shoot a 338-378 bee......would take one big dude to shoot a 600. Doubt there's anybody that big on this forum
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  #263  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:07 PM
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The fact that people are still jabbering nonsense in the face of testimony just so they can feel uber about their damned opinion on this thread is an epic example of why the future is Fubar.

The .223 is as least as effective as a 30-30 and to a further reasonable range. Having used .22 cals and the 30-30 on deer sized game and seen more taken I say it with the authority of experience.

All of the responsible industry professionals of the modern age I could find (in a very quick Google search mind you) that have used one said the same damn thing.

I'm waiting for someone on this to argue flat earth with astronauts next......you guys are hilarious.
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  #264  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:19 PM
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A 338-378 has about 41 ft/lbs of recoil energy. A 600 NE is over 150.
1f you need to be 225lbs to shoot a 338-378 bee......would take one big dude to shoot a 600. Doubt there's anybody that big on this forum
First off, I don't think you don't need to be 225lbs to shoot a 338-378, it just happens to be the biggest gun I've shot. The way some talk I figured for sure a 600 nitro is a cake walk.

Some guys shoot small cartridges because they want to, not because they have to, just like some guys shoot big cartridges because they want to, not because they have to. I'm totally fine with having to get within 300yds of an animal to take a shot, it's a hell of a lot easier than having to get within 60yds with my bow. It's hunting and I'm a hunter, getting close is the fun part. Besides, it's hard to judge a deer at 500yds, I've seen the sad faces of ground shrinkage plenty of times, was even a victim of it once.
  #265  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:29 PM
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First off, I don't think you don't need to be 225lbs to shoot a 338-378, it just happens to be the biggest gun I've shot. The way some talk I figured for sure a 600 nitro is a cake walk.

Some guys shoot small cartridges because they want to, not because they have to, just like some guys shoot big cartridges because they want to, not because they have to. I'm totally fine with having to get within 300yds of an animal to take a shot, it's a hell of a lot easier than having to get within 60yds with my bow. It's hunting and I'm a hunter, getting close is the fun part. Besides, it's hard to judge a deer at 500yds, I've seen the sad faces of ground shrinkage plenty of times, was even a victim of it once.
Gad Kurt .. your're mellowing out. Good post and I agree 100 %
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  #266  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:39 PM
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Gad Kurt .. your're mellowing out. Good post and I agree 100 %
Ive had my leg elevated for a couple hours, my knee don't hurt so much right now, I'm probably just not as grumpy as usual.


Tomorrow's another day
  #267  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:40 PM
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Ive had my leg elevated for a couple hours, my knee don't hurt so much right now, I'm probably just not as grumpy as usual.


Tomorrow's another day
Let's hope so
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  #268  
Old 08-08-2018, 11:58 PM
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I’m gonna come kick your knee to get this thread interesting again lmao

Naw, I’m just kidding. But if I’m up that way during archery season I’ll let you know

Salavee, I’m hoping to get out to a range again soon. We’ll test out some big rifles and small rifles and use them as we so choose in the elk woods
  #269  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:06 AM
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I’m gonna come kick your knee to get this thread interesting again lmao

Naw, I’m just kidding. But if I’m up that way during archery season I’ll let you know

Salavee, I’m hoping to get out to a range again soon. We’ll test out some big rifles and small rifles and use them as we so choose in the elk woods
You're always welcome to stop in.


I might need a hand packing the cranker out of the swamp
  #270  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:39 AM
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You're always welcome to stop in.





I might need a hand packing the cranker out of the swamp


My knife is ready. Beer is in the fridge.
But if you don’t use a 338 win mag there’s no point in getting my hopes up. Your pathetic cm will never drop a deer that big.
Selfishly, I just want to take some selfies with that buck. He’ll be a famous Alberta deer if you can catch him slipping up
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