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Old 12-12-2018, 07:28 PM
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Default Rifle Scope problems.

As the title says, I'm having rifle scope problems.

I usually work out such issues on my own but this time I wondered if it would help to have some input from guys who shoot a lot more then I do.

As some might remember I've been working up a load for a 218 Bee that I inherited.
The gun came to me, well used and with only Iron sights but drilled for scope mounting.

So I bought a budget Simmons scope for it and did a bit of shooting with it and the new scope.
I was not at all happy with the outcome of those first shots so I put the rifle aside thinking I would correct the problem with handloads later on.
I thought the issue was the factory ammo I was using. Partially because there was only one load offered.

So I've been testing loads and everything seemed okay with the setup but not the reloads. Or maybe I didn't notice that I wasn't hitting the target in any sort of predictable pattern. I wasn't really trying that hard to hit the target, I was much more concerned with the pressure signs I was getting

Well the last round of testing I did see that most of my shots hit high and to the left about three inches.

So I adjusted the scope eight clicks to the right. The next three shots hit two inches to the right. So I back it off four clicks and test again.
This time it hits right off the paper, and to the right.

Gotta be the scope right?

This has happened to me before, but with older scopes, this one is practiaclly new and mounted on a very light kicking rifle.
Doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I got a dud.

Problem is, now what. A new scope, but how do I avoid it happening all over again.

I suspect I know the answers, new scope and buy a much more expensive one this time. But maybe I am missing something.
It's not like I have a ton of experiance with scopes or scopes failing.

Sure I have had four fail for no apperant reason, but all were lower priced units and from four different companies. One was a Tasco, one a Bushnell one a Mauser and this one, a Simmons.

Meanwhile I have two very old Weavers that just never loose zero. So is it the low priced scopes or something I'm not aware of.

Any of you 1,000 rounds a year guys have any ideas?
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Old 12-12-2018, 07:37 PM
cowmanbob cowmanbob is offline
 
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I've got some scopes that came as a gun and scope package that you can have.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:46 PM
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I've got some scopes that came as a gun and scope package that you can have.
Thank you kind sir.

I'll pop over for a visit soon. Maybe early next week, if I can.
The rest of this week I'll be getting ready for a show. Sharing a table with my youngest on the weekend don't you know. Yippee ! Gonna be a good time!
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:31 AM
Mhunter51 Mhunter51 is offline
 
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I had the same thing happen on one of my Leupold scoped. Sighting it in shot high and right. Moved it down and left the apropriate amount of clicks and now we were low and left about five inches. Continued on the chase for a bit. Sent the scope in andthe replaced the inards and now all is good. Take cowmanbob's offer and at least " try " one of his on the gun. My betting money is on a bad scope. Good luck
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Old 12-13-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mhunter51 View Post
I had the same thing happen on one of my Leupold scoped. Sighting it in shot high and right. Moved it down and left the apropriate amount of clicks and now we were low and left about five inches. Continued on the chase for a bit. Sent the scope in andthe replaced the inards and now all is good. Take cowmanbob's offer and at least " try " one of his on the gun. My betting money is on a bad scope. Good luck
I figure it's the scope too. What I wasn't sure of is if I wanted to start saving for a high priced scope. For the exact reason you mention you had with your Leupold.

I've had nothing but disappointing results with warranty issues.

I for sure intend to take cowman up on his offer. I suspect he has far better scopes then I could afford. The man doesn't do anything half way. And he doesn't own run down equipment.

I've seen his hunting blinds. To me they would be five star motels. LOL
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:22 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
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Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
I figure it's the scope too. What I wasn't sure of is if I wanted to start saving for a high priced scope. For the exact reason you mention you had with your Leupold.

I've had nothing but disappointing results with warranty issues.

I for sure intend to take cowman up on his offer. I suspect he has far better scopes then I could afford. The man doesn't do anything half way. And he doesn't own run down equipment.

I've seen his hunting blinds. To me they would be five star motels. LOL
I've owned Nikon riflescopes for years. Lifetime Canadian No-Fault warranty...never had to take them up on it but I a friend dropped his rifle and pooched his scope...had a new one in hand with three weeks.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:56 PM
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Before you blame the scope take a close look at all your ring and base screws and make sure they are solid. I have seen a fair number of scopes get blamed for what turned out to be loose rings or bases.
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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I've owned Nikon riflescopes for years. Lifetime Canadian No-Fault warranty...never had to take them up on it but I a friend dropped his rifle and pooched his scope...had a new one in hand with three weeks.
Nikon is a top name in cameras, so it makes sense they would make a good scope.

I've never even seen one though. However, I believe my friends at Golden handle them.
I'll have to look into that.

Thanks.
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:32 PM
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Before you blame the scope take a close look at all your ring and base screws and make sure they are solid. I have seen a fair number of scopes get blamed for what turned out to be loose rings or bases.
That was my first thought, and I checked, and one base was loose.
That was the day I first started suspecting I had to adjust the scope.

Rings were good but the front base was loose. I applied locktight and torqued them up. Then I checked all screws on the rings and back bases. All were good.
Only then did I adjust the windage.

It was the two tests after that where I discovered the unusual point of impact movement.
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:18 PM
outdoorsman12b outdoorsman12b is offline
 
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Assuming you have everything properly mounted and were firing consistently there are a few things. The rifle you are referencing seems older. Are you confident the ring holes are drilled straight? You may need to use rings like Leupold standard if there is misalignment. You did not indicate the range you were shooting but I assume 100 yards. On cheap scopes often the adjustment is 1/2 minute and not 1/4 which would explain the placement of the shots after adjustment. The shot off paper could have been an adjustment in wrong direction thereafter. This is a common mistake. Also if your not using an inch/lb torque driver for your rings you could be over or under torquing. The former will compress the working parts of the scope and your inputs on the dial will be unreliable. The latter will cause scope movement and result in inconstant shooting. You also mention that you were not really trying to hit the target. That will obviously lead to poor shooting. Basically you have not given enough info to really narrow it down but this may help. Best of luck!
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:04 PM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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Buddy had one on his S+W 460 and it didn't last a box.It was replaced and this one is taking it like a champ.3 shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards off bags.Better than most rifles.
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by outdoorsman12b View Post
Assuming you have everything properly mounted and were firing consistently there are a few things. The rifle you are referencing seems older. Are you confident the ring holes are drilled straight? You may need to use rings like Leupold standard if there is misalignment. You did not indicate the range you were shooting but I assume 100 yards. On cheap scopes often the adjustment is 1/2 minute and not 1/4 which would explain the placement of the shots after adjustment. The shot off paper could have been an adjustment in wrong direction thereafter. This is a common mistake. Also if your not using an inch/lb torque driver for your rings you could be over or under torquing. The former will compress the working parts of the scope and your inputs on the dial will be unreliable. The latter will cause scope movement and result in inconstant shooting. You also mention that you were not really trying to hit the target. That will obviously lead to poor shooting. Basically you have not given enough info to really narrow it down but this may help. Best of luck!
I didn't want to fill a whole page with details of what I had eliminated as suspects.

The turrets on the scope indicate each click equals 1/4 inch at 100 yards.
I was shooting at 100 yards but since a I was shooting a 218 and not a 270 I thought it would be assumed that I was using a 100 yard zero.

The holes were drilled by a gunsmith, that's all I know. Except that this rifle was accurate a few years ago, with this scope.
And it was producing decent groups before the first adjustment only they were too far to the left.

1 1/2 inch three shot groups from an improvised field rest in a standing position. not sitting at a shooting bench. I think that is acceptable.

All were three shot groups. The three off paper were right of the previous group and after adjusting to the left. and all six were carefully aimed.

The first several groups were for load development so not intended for accuracy. After making the first adjustment, three additional groups were fired for accuracy and it is those three groups that raised the concern.

The mounts and scope rings are not loose. That was the first thing I checked. But I don't have torque wrenches.

Although it may be a good idea to check torque I don't have the tools to do so at this time. I think it's unlikely to be the cause but it sure won't hurt to check.
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer2 View Post
Buddy had one on his S+W 460 and it didn't last a box.It was replaced and this one is taking it like a champ.3 shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards off bags.Better than most rifles.
I've had a couple of new scopes fail and several people who have had the same thing happen to them.

This was a cheap scope. But a well known brand name. For me the problem is I've heard of it happening with high priced very popular brand names and I have had many very disappointing results when asking for warranty coverage.

Years ago I bought a brand new Anschutz .22 and a mid range Bushnell scope to go with it. A few months later an inner lens in that scope came loose. I couldn't see anything through it after that.

The store I bought it from said I had dismantled it so they would not honor the warranty. The warranty card said to return it to the point of purchase so there went $250.00 bucks
That was over thirty years ago. $250.00 bucks was a substantial sum for a hunting scope in those days.
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Old 12-17-2018, 02:18 PM
outdoorsman12b outdoorsman12b is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
I didn't want to fill a whole page with details of what I had eliminated as suspects.

The turrets on the scope indicate each click equals 1/4 inch at 100 yards.
I was shooting at 100 yards but since a I was shooting a 218 and not a 270 I thought it would be assumed that I was using a 100 yard zero.

The holes were drilled by a gunsmith, that's all I know. Except that this rifle was accurate a few years ago, with this scope.
And it was producing decent groups before the first adjustment only they were too far to the left.

1 1/2 inch three shot groups from an improvised field rest in a standing position. not sitting at a shooting bench. I think that is acceptable.

All were three shot groups. The three off paper were right of the previous group and after adjusting to the left. and all six were carefully aimed.

The first several groups were for load development so not intended for accuracy. After making the first adjustment, three additional groups were fired for accuracy and it is those three groups that raised the concern.

The mounts and scope rings are not loose. That was the first thing I checked. But I don't have torque wrenches.

Although it may be a good idea to check torque I don't have the tools to do so at this time. I think it's unlikely to be the cause but it sure won't hurt to check.
Could be fouling issues or barel heat. Is the load proven? I would try a 10 shot group at 100 and see how it turns out without changing anything. Make sure barell has time to cool between rounds.
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:27 PM
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Could be fouling issues or barel heat. Is the load proven? I would try a 10 shot group at 100 and see how it turns out without changing anything. Make sure barell has time to cool between rounds.

I don't see barrel heating or fouling as a likely culprit.

Not with thee shot groups at two to three minutes between shots and 15 to 20 minutes between groups.

Barrel was cleaned three times during the tests. A total of 24 rounds fired over a span of 12 days.

Lets say heating was the cause. How does that work? How does heat or fouling cause group to move to the right when adjustment was made to the left?

I thought heating and fouling opened up the group. Never heard of it causing groups to move in the opposite direction of adjustments.
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
As the title says, I'm having rifle scope problems.

I usually work out such issues on my own but this time I wondered if it would help to have some input from guys who shoot a lot more then I do.

As some might remember I've been working up a load for a 218 Bee that I inherited.
The gun came to me, well used and with only Iron sights but drilled for scope mounting.

So I bought a budget Simmons scope for it and did a bit of shooting with it and the new scope.
I was not at all happy with the outcome of those first shots so I put the rifle aside thinking I would correct the problem with handloads later on.
I thought the issue was the factory ammo I was using. Partially because there was only one load offered.

So I've been testing loads and everything seemed okay with the setup but not the reloads. Or maybe I didn't notice that I wasn't hitting the target in any sort of predictable pattern. I wasn't really trying that hard to hit the target, I was much more concerned with the pressure signs I was getting

Well the last round of testing I did see that most of my shots hit high and to the left about three inches.

So I adjusted the scope eight clicks to the right. The next three shots hit two inches to the right. So I back it off four clicks and test again.
This time it hits right off the paper, and to the right.

Gotta be the scope right?

This has happened to me before, but with older scopes, this one is practiaclly new and mounted on a very light kicking rifle.
Doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I got a dud.

Problem is, now what. A new scope, but how do I avoid it happening all over again.

I suspect I know the answers, new scope and buy a much more expensive one this time. But maybe I am missing something.
It's not like I have a ton of experiance with scopes or scopes failing.

Sure I have had four fail for no apperant reason, but all were lower priced units and from four different companies. One was a Tasco, one a Bushnell one a Mauser and this one, a Simmons.

Meanwhile I have two very old Weavers that just never loose zero. So is it the low priced scopes or something I'm not aware of.

Any of you 1,000 rounds a year guys have any ideas?
You say you were getting pressures signs? Such as?

I would pull the scope, and check the bases and then put another scope on.
Check the action itself and bedding. Check the crown. Give a good cleaning, how's the barrel look. Kinda start from scratch and eliminate one thing at a time. Good luck, it can be frustrating.
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Old 12-17-2018, 07:00 PM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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A buddy had one on a .270 new and the crosshairs broke before the 10th round.
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Old 12-17-2018, 07:20 PM
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A buddy had one on a .270 new and the crosshairs broke before the 10th round.
Ouch. That is not good.

I'm pretty sure that is what the issue is with mine.
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Old 12-17-2018, 07:24 PM
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I don't see barrel heating or fouling as a likely culprit.

Not with thee shot groups at two to three minutes between shots and 15 to 20 minutes between groups.

Barrel was cleaned three times during the tests. A total of 24 rounds fired over a span of 12 days.

Lets say heating was the cause. How does that work? How does heat or fouling cause group to move to the right when adjustment was made to the left?

I thought heating and fouling opened up the group. Never heard of it causing groups to move in the opposite direction of adjustments.
The science behind it isn't that straight forward. I was in a similar situation to you with much better components not to long ago. Floating the barrel helped remove flyers. As did only firing one shot with time between to cool. It makes a long day but bring multiple guns to help out with passing time. Once a barel heats up shots start to get erratic and it's hard to get back on track. Mirage from the barel will throw your shots as well. Ultimately your rifle will shoot in a cone and you can't expect it to group the same with every 3 shot group. That's why I recommended you shoot a 10 shot group. See what the rifle does. Cleaning the barel while shooting may of actually been causing your issues. I use to obsess over clean bores but learned most rifles shoot far more consistent dirty. Clean only when you notice accuracy changes.
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