Flights canceled

[munsterx]

Just had a quick question not trying to cause issues yes obviously I know it is cold just wanted to know some thoughts.
1) West jet says flights canceled cause de ice fluid not working so when your 35,000ft in air at -50 why is plane not frozen?
2)If airlines and airports cancel all these flights how come every sports team is still traveling?
3)Have lived in Alberta for 53 years and have flown many many times in -30 weather what is especially west jet problem?
Thanks just making conversation have been on other phone for 4.5 hours with west jet and there music goona kill me.

[vance]

I believe that once the ice has been removed from the plane's control surfaces, it is then safe to take off. Unless the plane flies through freezing precipitation, it won't accumulate more ice.
Maybe ice doesn't form at very high altitude?
Vance

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by vance

I believe that once the ice has been removed from the plane's control surfaces, it is then safe to take off. Unless the plane flies through freezing precipitation, it won't accumulate more ice.
Maybe ice doesn't form at very high altitude?
Vance

Kinda what I’m thinking. Or maybe it can’t form flying 700 miles an hour.

[Dewey Cox]

It's -45.
You go outside and get the plane ready.

[oilngas]

How does a fuel station / ability to refuel plane get disabled in -40C? I would, have thought that WestJet would have access to fuel specified for a lower temperature than -40 C.

I gotta be missing something here.

[munsterx]

Yeah seems like west jet is got some issues.Had a buddy supposed to leave Vancouver to edmonton today it just got canceled +3 in Vancouver no dicing there.Coming up 5 hours on hold with westjet what a joke.I really think this is a union problem that there workers are not allowed to work under a certain temperature because 90 percent of air canada and others are still flying.Who knows maybe there phone lines are frozen lol.West jet used to be number one in my books this is two winters in a row terrible.

[Davey Boy]

Used to work for Air Canada. It's possible that they ran out of de-icing fluid, due to mainly supply issues. I remember one winter that AC was getting low on fluid. Couldn't get it shipped in fast enough. We were lucky and didn't run out but came close.
And in Vancouver they would have minimal de-icing equipment and not much for fluid storage.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Always though 'deicing' was done during heavy snow and or freezing rain. Never thought it was necessary for takeoff during extremely cold temperatures.

[munsterx]

I agree with all of you.I am hearing that 25 of 27 flights canceled yesterday in calgary were west jet?Maybe you should have stocked up on de icing fluid or they should borrow some from Air Canada or Transat or maybe even Flair.I am still waiting on hold this company is a absolute embarrassment you cancel flights disrupt peoples lives and make excuses.How did west jet still fly to Fort McMurray ?Hire some damn people to answer the phone!!!!.Maybe they want people to rebook at higher prices ?

[munsterx]

Also can anyone tell me why most of the flights being canceled are to Vancouver?

[spirit4u]

I think flights are delayed due to staffing and mechanical issues. Keeping the deicing machines running might be an issue more so than the planes. Maybe couple employees couldn't get to work due to their vehicle not starting etc. Pilots might not have enough rest time etc. Flight crews not available. Planes need to be deiced because they do not have the engine heat to thaw the wing flaps off before take off. Vancouver was having it's own snow squall yesterday. Once flights get cancelled the pilots daily flying schedule gets screwed up.

[Davey Boy]

Everything spirit says. If screw ups happen it will happen in the cold, heavy snow or at the Airport. Vancouver probably has only a few trucks able to de-ice and they are probably not new. If they break down, sometimes parts are scarce and take a while to get. Remember they don't use them much as they hardly ever get snow. Daughter says when it snows the whole city seems to shut down. As to the other airlines lending glycol for deicing, not likely to happen, because then they might run out. There are so many variables that depend on other companies, people, machinery, to get an airplane safely in the air, that many people don't think of. Too many cogs in the works that all have to operate like a clock.

[New2Elk]

I was talking to a guy at work about that yesterday. Some types/models of planes are certified for flying at colder temps than others. He had a few specs on that. It appears that these are ground temp restrictions as obviously it gets colder up higher but the issue is once the plane is in a deep freeze overnight, it’s no longer certified to fly. Depending on what planes they have in their fleet (or for a certain route) it may ground most of or the entire fleet when others are still certified to fly at those temps.

I’m sure the other issues listed are also applicable but I would assume this would affect some of the planes anyway even if all the other issues didn’t exist.

[Stinky Buffalo]

I’ve often found Vancouver a gong show to fly out of when there snow or cooler weather. Not sure why, but I’m guessing that it’s may be that they aren’t really well equipped or trained for that.

[Sundancefisher]

Ground De-icing lasts 22 minutes so if planes aren’t quick to take off they need to do it again. Causes major delays as planes line up. Each airline does their own.

Good read.

https://www.portseattle.org/blog/all...plane-de-icing

Snow, ice and frost can all pose a problem with take off.

[triguy]

I think the situation is a little more complicated. There are type 1 and type 4 fluids required. type 1 is an deice and type 4 is anti ice. there are complicated charts that are used that take environmental conditions into account and give the effective time of the fluid. The fluid is designed with shear qualities to separate from the critical surfaces at a certain speed. Then there is the problem of Jet-A having a critical temp range of -42. Then the other side is getting outside employees to stay warm enough to preform their duties. Loading bags, fueling and any required maintence all take longer. Then coordinate all that with both front end and backend crews that have duty time limits.
I think that has scratched the surface of the challenges of cold weather operations.
Sit back relax and watch it all play out

[Vacation]

I would think in this weather more than de icing is the prob. Bag handling, motors freezing up…..things breaking…so many possible issues. I would be ok not flying.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I fly a lot for work I have dealt with lots of delays over the years. If it’s not safe it’s not safe, I would rather they delay things than push them. I got caught last year in the bitter cold when the de-ice fluid wasn’t effective… is what it is, I made it home safe in time to go cougar hunting. It could have been worse!

LC

[waldedw]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I fly a lot for work I have dealt with lots of delays over the years. If it’s not safe it’s not safe, I would rather they delay things than push them. I got caught last year in the bitter cold when the de-ice fluid wasn’t effective… is what it is, I made it home safe in time to go cougar hunting. It could have been worse!

LC

This exactly, I spent 17 years working overseas and had all kinds of flight delays due to bad weather and cold temps, I would much rather be delayed then have a plane take off when not safe, our charter had a very close call in Murmansk Russia and I spent 5 days in a hotel room in Nome Alaska waiting for a flight across the Bering straight to Magadan Russia, that's OK I'm still here to tell you about it, thank you very much.

[58thecat]

Cold temps will bugger anything up in short order......so have patience.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by triguy

I think the situation is a little more complicated. There are type 1 and type 4 fluids required. type 1 is an deice and type 4 is anti ice. there are complicated charts that are used that take environmental conditions into account and give the effective time of the fluid. The fluid is designed with shear qualities to separate from the critical surfaces at a certain speed. Then there is the problem of Jet-A having a critical temp range of -42. Then the other side is getting outside employees to stay warm enough to preform their duties. Loading bags, fueling and any required maintence all take longer. Then coordinate all that with both front end and backend crews that have duty time limits.
I think that has scratched the surface of the challenges of cold weather operations.
Sit back relax and watch it all play out

Our Jet A right now is sitting at a freeze point of -68. Spec is -48. Haven’t made any Jet B for a while but it has a freeze point of around -75

[elkhunter11]

A friend spent 17 hours yesterday getting from Edmonton to Calgary, trying to get to Costa Rica. The aircraft had to wait in line to get de iced, then the crew timed out, then they couldn't fly because apparently customs in Costa Rica shut down at midnight. He was back at the airport at 5am, hoping to fly out this morning.

[elkhunter11]

Just updated by my friend, still waiting on the ground, apparently aircraft has mechanical issues. They have lost a full day now, and hoping to not lose much more of their vacation.

[Trochu]

My brother was suppost to fly out of Vancouver yesterday, to Calgary, flight cancelled. It was a high of -2C in Vancouver yesterday.

[elkhunter11]

After three gate changes, my friend is finally off, over 24 hours late.

[esher]

Wife landed in Calgary Thursday morning with WestJet going to bc, hoping to get out soon.