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Old 05-16-2017, 10:13 AM
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Question Mech vs fixed

During a recent discussion, I want to get a feeler or opinion on a shot on a buck I had made. The shot was around 40yrds, downwards. I shoot 70lbs. I was shooting a mechanical broadhead.

My question is, mech vs fixed. Would it have made a difference??
This pic was taken about 6 weeks afterwards.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:17 AM
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if that was the exit side then you missed the vitals probably a hair another direction you would have got lungs or spine.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:23 AM
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No would not make any difference, solid shoulder hit. Regardless from shooting mech or fixed you have to avoid bigbone (shoulder is still big bone, ribs are not) with an arrow...the ODD time you get lucky but that's the exception not a rule.

Just an example not sure if this was the case, but either way you need to be hitting down a few more inches. If the shot was downward from elevation and you range 40 yards (for example)...that's linear direct distance not taking into account the angle, likely off by 5 yards...35 yards would have been the ticket.

LC
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
No would not make any difference, solid shoulder hit. Regardless from shooting mech or fixed you have to avoid bigbone (shoulder is still big bone, ribs are not) with an arrow...the ODD time you get lucky but that's the exception not a rule.

Just an example not sure if this was the case, but either way you need to be hitting down a few more inches. If the shot was downward from elevation and you range 40 yards (for example)...that's linear direct distance not taking into account the angle, likely off by 5 yards...35 yards would have been the ticket.

LC
I figured I had shoulder blade
Lefty do you have much experience with those range finders with the "angle" compensation?? With what your saying in regards to the angle that 5yrds diff was the downfall to the shot.

Im still what I would consider new to archery (coming up on season 4) Always learning stuff lol. Do you have a recommended book/website ect I could check out in regards to shooting angles and that type of good stuff??
Thanks for the reply LC
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:50 PM
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Depends if that is entrance or exit. If that's exit, it was too high and most likely just over the spine (muscle) or possibly just under it (top lung with no major blood vessels hit). Wouldn't matter.

If that is entrance with no pass through, you caught the shoulder blade. No one can say for certain if a fixed would have done better, but popular theory holds that it may have, and I tend to agree.

Nice buck, good to see he made it.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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That is entrance I am guessing.

Generally, shooting downhill/uphill I take off 5-10% depending on the angle. Many rangefinders do not compensate for angle and the ones that do seem to do it well. The shot looks to be in the upper 3rd which should never be a point of aim, always strive for lower 1/3-1/2 as that's the sweet spot with the largest kill and chance at success.

I do my best to avoid shoulder at all costs... regardless of bow speed/ IBO /poundage or broadhead choice.

LC
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
That is entrance I am guessing.

Generally, shooting downhill/uphill I take off 5-10% depending on the angle. Many rangefinders do not compensate for angle and the ones that do seem to do it well. The shot looks to be in the upper 3rd which should never be a point of aim, always strive for lower 1/3-1/2 as that's the sweet spot with the largest kill and chance at success.

I do my best to avoid shoulder at all costs... regardless of bow speed/ IBO /poundage or broadhead choice.

LC
I did feel the shot was good, Looked good from where I was. After not finding him until a few days later on the hoof, it made sense not finding him the first 2 days in the area. Good thing is, hes still alive and will be bigger this year
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:00 PM
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Shots can feel good, but our eyes and minds can lie to us. You never know what truly happens until you find your animal....alive or dead.

LC
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:22 AM
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I think a GK would have faired better giving a pass. Shot placement not good but I believe with a solid 2 blade he would be harvested with your setup and that hit.


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Old 05-19-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeerhunter View Post
I think a GK would have faired better giving a pass. Shot placement not good but I believe with a solid 2 blade he would be harvested with your setup and that hit.


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I think it was a two blade rage. Too many variables we don't know. One of the most overlooked, proper bow tune...an arrow flying true with enough momentum can do amazing things. A porpoising or tailing/kicking arrow can glance and deflect in the same situation.

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Old 05-28-2017, 07:04 AM
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I prefer the fixed blades but in your case I don't think it would have made a difference. Shot was obviously too far forward. The shoulder blade is pretty tough stuff to get an arrow through even if it was to penetrate probably would not have gone deep enough. The saving grace is that he lives another day and you get another chance at him.
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Old 05-28-2017, 07:34 AM
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I'm switching to grim reapers this season from strykers. I like the strykers but there was not much of a blood trail even with a pass through. When I first purchased my Nikon pro staff 7i I had to be sure of the angle compensation. So what I did was set up my treestand and target in a mock scenario for hunting at different distances. It turns out the compensation works well on that one. Not saying that was the reason for your unfortunate shot but it sure is nice to know instead of trusting the manufacturers word. Hope you find him again in the upcoming season
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Old 05-28-2017, 07:59 AM
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Mechanical or fixed...a bad arrow placement happens and that is the end result.
Practice shooting from your stand at a target, set your deer target out at various ranges, climb in your stand and shoot, there is no better way to get better than this. Do it enough and soon everything becomes second nature.
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Old 05-28-2017, 11:32 AM
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Currently I'm shooting grim reaper razor tips for mechanical and hades for fixed I've always been a fixed guy
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Old 05-29-2017, 12:46 AM
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Was he walking or moving at the time you took the shot ?
Yes or no ?
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonescreek View Post
Was he walking or moving at the time you took the shot ?
Yes or no ?
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Old 05-29-2017, 06:41 PM
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I don't think a head would have made a difference. I've used both successfully and a poor fixed or mechanical is just that.

This looks to me like a bad placement that happens sometimes.

I hit a doe similarly and it survived. I was using a Stinger which is a good head.

I've had near same placement with a 1 3/4" grim reaper kill the animal.

Both were pass thrus btw.

The real thing is you need confidence in what you're using; if you have to switch to a fixed to gain confidence then do so.
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:27 PM
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You didn't mention arrow weight but with a well tuned rig shooting a mid weight (500+ grain) or heavier arrow and a good broadhead you would of blown through him on that hit. You'll always be behind the 8 ball shooting light arrows and mechanicals when it comes to penetration and you'll have to make good shots if you want to kill animals.

There will always be people who won't accept that a rig can be setup for penetration but there isn't a bone in a deers body that can't be easily broken with an arrow. The only question is are you aware of the compromise of shooting a rig like that and are you willing to live with them?
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:05 PM
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You can setup a bow and arrow combination with the idea it will habe penetration any hunting situation, but there is no guarantees it will.

My thought is I will put the arrow where it needs to go, and then having to penetrate big bone isn't even a concern because I won't be planning on putting an arrow there.

LC
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
You didn't mention arrow weight but with a well tuned rig shooting a mid weight (500+ grain) or heavier arrow and a good broadhead you would of blown through him on that hit. You'll always be behind the 8 ball shooting light arrows and mechanicals when it comes to penetration and you'll have to make good shots if you want to kill animals.

There will always be people who won't accept that a rig can be setup for penetration but there isn't a bone in a deers body that can't be easily broken with an arrow. The only question is are you aware of the compromise of shooting a rig like that and are you willing to live with them?
I've broken both shoulder knuckles with Rocket Steel heads and 380gr arrows at 275fps. New rigs with 400+ grains going 300fps plus will penetrate with good heads that don't cut too wide. Resistance is the great downfall of arrow penetration.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
I've broken both shoulder knuckles with Rocket Steel heads and 380gr arrows at 275fps. New rigs with 400+ grains going 300fps plus will penetrate with good heads that don't cut too wide. Resistance is the great downfall of arrow penetration.
Penetration on heavy bone will be inconsistent with a setup like that (deer legs don't even constitute heavy bone). When I went to oz hunting water buff I shot 750 grains, those consistently break everything in their path. There's also a lot more then just arrow weight that goes into this equation but it's a non starter if you haven't got it.
If your properly tuned with a good broadhead, an arrow/insert/broadhead that won't break or bend on a tough impact and keep your arrow weight up around 500 grains you'll blow through a deer at any angle. Hit one like the op did and you'll drop him, that shot probably would of needed a follow up but the deer would of went down once you got through his (thin) scapula and broke his back. Play this game long enough and bad shots are going to happen. The only variable is if your going to be ready for them?
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:08 PM
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We made the same point. It doesn't take much to blow through deer.

And I disagree; I've seen a pass thrus on deer where the OP hit and the deer survived. You have to do fatal damage when you're arrow goes through. This wasn't a matter of penetration.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:32 PM
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We made the same point. It doesn't take much to blow through deer.

And I disagree; I've seen a pass thrus on deer where the OP hit and the deer survived. You have to do fatal damage when you're arrow goes through. This wasn't a matter of penetration.
The deers spine is behind that scar. Unless its leg was all the way forward on the shot, part of the scapula was also behind that scar but it's a very thin portion of scapula. If the op had broken the spine the deer would go down, the op would probably have to shoot it again (possibly would have cut the artery under the spine) but either way it would end up being fatal. This was all about the (lack of) penetration.
If you've seen non fatal pass throughs in that general area they were either over the spine or they were fatal and you failed to track it far enough.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
The deers spine is behind that scar. Unless its leg was all the way forward on the shot, part of the scapula was also behind that scar but it's a very thin portion of scapula. If the op had broken the spine the deer would go down, the op would probably have to shoot it again (possibly would have cut the artery under the spine) but either way it would end up being fatal. This was all about the (lack of) penetration.

If you've seen non fatal pass throughs in that general area they were either over the spine or they were fatal and you failed to track it far enough.


I agree with this guy.
On everything.
Cheers.


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Old 06-08-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
The deers spine is behind that scar. Unless its leg was all the way forward on the shot, part of the scapula was also behind that scar but it's a very thin portion of scapula. If the op had broken the spine the deer would go down, the op would probably have to shoot it again (possibly would have cut the artery under the spine) but either way it would end up being fatal. This was all about the (lack of) penetration.
If you've seen non fatal pass throughs in that general area they were either over the spine or they were fatal and you failed to track it far enough.
The funny thing is I followed them more than far enough and saw them moving around on days after this. Im also talking about a whopping example of two with wounds on both sides.

What you're forgetting is the deers movement and shot angles. And Murphy.

I've also been there for animals recovered shot in nearly the same spot. They go a very long way and for two of the animals I saw the lungs were touched but not significant. The killer was the slow bleed on the well protected arteries on the bottom of the spine.

These shots leave little to no blood trails and are difficult to follow.

I've also been a part of shooting enough deer with archery tackle to wonder at how stupid your setup or shot distance would have to be to get a lack of penetration on this shot.

And looking at the photo again it's clearly at the back of the shoulder and under the spine. It is in the top of the rib cage.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:56 AM
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Double tap oops

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Old 06-08-2017, 07:56 AM
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I think the angle of the shot that was taken doesn't match the angle of the photo either. In any case the placement is undesirable for archery tackle....down 3-4 inches and back 1-2 is money. With a rifle you would be enjoying the back straps.

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Old 06-08-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
The funny thing is I followed them more than far enough and saw them moving around on days after this. Im also talking about a whopping example of two with wounds on both sides.



What you're forgetting is the deers movement and shot angles. And Murphy.



I've also been there for animals recovered shot in nearly the same spot. They go a very long way and for two of the animals I saw the lungs were touched but not significant. The killer was the slow bleed on the well protected arteries on the bottom of the spine.



These shots leave little to no blood trails and are difficult to follow.



I've also been a part of shooting enough deer with archery tackle to wonder at how stupid your setup or shot distance would have to be to get a lack of penetration on this shot.



And looking at the photo again it's clearly at the back of the shoulder and under the spine. It is in the top of the rib cage.


If you had ever cut that artery under the spine you would know it's anything but a slow bleed. However, the muscle on top of the spine would be. The lungs directly below the spine aren't as vascular as they are lower down and due to gravity it's not going to bleed as well from a lower lung shot but this is where a sharp broadhead becomes important both for the amount of blood and to cut that tough artery if your arrow goes past it. Here's what it looks like when you get the artery we are talking about.





You find it surprising a guy wouldn't get penetration on a shot like that? Most guys know very little about their gear and what it takes to get consistent penetration on tough shots. Let's just consider how many are properly tuned and can group field tips, broadheads and bare shafts together out at their max range. My bow will group all three types of arrows together at 70 meters because I can tune a bow and I know the arrow flying straight behind the broadhead is the most important component of penetration. I often hunt with 5 different broadheads in my quiver and my bow is tuned well enough I can screw any straight spinning broadhead into my arrow and it will group with all the rest of my arrows.
Then let's take how many guys have put enough thought into the structural integrity of their arrow. How many of you can go out and shoot your hunting arrow into a paving stone or large rock at 4 or 5 yards on a direct and glancing shot and not have anything fail? Mine will pass and I know they will because I tested them. I didn't say cinder block for a reason, those things are soft and very easy to blow apart with an arrow.
Arrow weight, what should we say. Most guys are chasing speed and don't realize how important arrow weight is to potential penetration. Sure a soda straw 380-420 grain arrow puts out some nice numbers over the chrono, tightens your pin gap (hypothetically), is easy to put together with off the shelf components and works if your shots perfect. They even work inconsistently on tough shots but they can't be counted on. Now I say hypothetically because the difference between 300 fps and 270 fps on your pins is a lot less then a guy would think. It's almost insignificant although I don't have a picture of my pins with those two arrow speeds. I used to have a pic of two arrows in my target, one at 420 grains and one at 530, both shot from the same bow with the same pin at 50 meters and the two arrows were about 3" apart with the heavier arrow directly under the lighter arrow. I usually shoot into a sand bank for a target. The 400ish grain arrows usually penetrate about 5", the 530 grain arrows might penetrate a foot, when I set up my water buff arrows they were out of sight in the sand. I had to dig them out from about 4" under the sand. That in no way extrapolates to penetration on an animal but my point is heavy arrows PENETRATE.
Then guys shoot mechanical broadheads, the worst penetrating broadheads as a group that you could tip your arrow with. Most of them are doing it because they can't tune their fixed heads but regardless they screw these poor penetrating, weak broadheads onto arrows that are both to light and aren't flying straight and go hunt. Then can't figure out why they didn't get the penetration they expected or the animal they wanted.

We've got guys in this thread who don't know anatomy. There's a guy near the beginning who chalked it up to a bad shot. Says it's to far forward... I don't want to shoot deer in the butt and this shot was nowhere near to far forward, simply to high.
Your telling me the shot was under the spine. Do you know where the spine is? I don't keep pictures of that on my phone so I'll use one off the net.



Here's the deer I shot to far back and to high that produced the blood trail above. Luckily I got the artery but my point is, look how low I hit her and how far back. Then compare that to the op's deer and the pic of the half of deer and realize how much lower the spine is as you get closer to the front leg. The scar on the op's deer is not under the spine. (In this pic the leg is forward and out of the picture but that would be the armpit if you will in the bottom right of the picture.)



Now let's talk about Murphy. That's the reason I set my rig up to handle any conceivable impact. I try and leave Murphy at home but he always seems to hunt with me and over the years I've had my share of screw ups. I've learned though and tested, researched and changed instead of believing a shop can paper tune my bow and it's actually tuned, that light arrows will penetrate every time I need them to, that arrows can't penetrate bone, that mechanicals are a good choice because they fly like field tips and are easy to tune, that if I hadn't got that boulder my arrow wouldn't of broken etc.

Don't get me wrong either, mechanicals aren't all bad and I shoot a few different types on certain animals under certain situations. I've got the arrow weight and tuned bow to handle them and I'm aware of their limitations. Most days though I'm shooting a 1-1/4" to 1.5" fixed blade because I know they're going to penetrate and they produce big blood trails.

The other thing I'll point out is there are guys shooting right through elephant, hippo, cape and water buffalo and then there are guys who can't get through a whitetail. Doesn't that seem like a problem?
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:23 AM
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First archery elk I ever shot came in so fast and hard I panicked and hit up near the spine....he ran off and I cow called, he stopped at 30 yards looked back....head drooped and he dropped.

I caught the artery (vein?) that runs along the spine and ties directly to the heart.

One of my poorest shots with one of the fastest recovery.

The shot depicted in the OP never made it there after encountering the shoulder blade.

LC
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:13 PM
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Coil oil, wanna add your arrow suggestions to the other thread too? http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=322582

Other than going with fmj, I'm not too sure how I'd get 500 grains. One day I'll spend the coin on them but so far I'll stick with goldtip on sale
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