Physician Assisted Suicide: for or against? - Page 4

Purple Farmer · #91 03-01-2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

We can't assume that every person who believes in a 'god' doesn't support the idea of P.A.D. Nor can we assume that every person who doesn't believe in a 'god' does support it.

Second, the proof in their belief system that you require or would want isn't possible. While you have your own belief system without God or faith, it's still a belief system. You can no more prove your belief system than I can mine.

Lastly, who's to say that God thinks suicide is a sin, or that P.A.D is suicide? And even if it is considered a sin, what's there to deal with? No one sin is any greater than another.

I'm not God, but I believe that He is capable of seeing a much bigger picture than we can possibly even comprehend.

I personally have 'faith' in 'God' and I don't believe that this topic is irreconcilable with what scripture says.

Utterly pointless comments that ad no strategic value to the conversation, much like your "let me assure you I am more than qualified" comment. You know it's an internet forum, right?

Condescend much?

Salmon Slayer Lenny · #92 03-01-2016, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Farmer

Utterly pointless comments that ad no strategic value to the conversation, much like your "let me assure you I am more than qualified" comment. You know it's an internet forum, right?

Condescend much?

Again, attack the individual and not the argument. Always a classic move.

Yes it's an anonymous forum, people can do or say what they want and hide behind a veil. I'm qualified, believe it or don't. It's not like I'm going to post my C.V or list off all of my qualifications to appease anyone.

If you find it condescending, that's on you. Look at the history of the posts first vs nit picking. If you don't like what I'm posting, either ignore it or respond with your own views.

Salmon Slayer Lenny · #93 03-01-2016, 04:56 PM

Purple Farmer,

What's your point?

I've not posted that I oppose the idea of P.A.D at all. Notice I'm not referring to it as suicide?

Arachnodisiac makes a statement that you quote without a point. Though heart felt and compelling, is it not possible that it may be exaggerated and without a reference or source?

Deo101 · #94 03-01-2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Most have you have completely lost your minds and morals.

Human life is the most precious thing in the universe and it should be fought for, tooth and bloody nail until the bitter end.

Just because its inconvenient or painful doesn't mean it should be ended. Life doesn't always fit yours (or my) definition of perfection. Pain is life. Give me death long and slow or make it quick, it doesn't matter. I would take 80 years of agony for just a glimpse of how great the world is.

They will not be ending me easily. Individuals can choose, fine indeed - curious though how AO's typical leftists are now over a sudden all about the individual and their rights.

Steve Earl had a great quote, not about the same subject but I see a similarity.

"Could you take that long walk with me
Knowing hell is waitin' there
Could you pull that switch yourself sir?"

Nope, its easier to sit at home and tell yourself its the best decision while a Dr. sends your loved ones to Never-Never land with what you tell yourself is a painless, quiet, uninvolved death. Shoot me in the face when my time comes and keep your eyes open when you do it.(if you can) Then head home and tell the internet how progressive you are.

Wow...I'm guessing you've never watched a loved one suffering and asking to die for years on end? I hope you never have to. Nor suffer yourself like some of the loved one's I've lost. I'd also hazard a guess that your morals begin and end with the bible? That's the only explanation for your line in the sand.

There is absolutely no black and white here. For one, prior to modern medicine most people would have died much sooner...kinda playing God keeping them around no? Or does that only work one way? It's nothing more than selfish in a lot of cases for people to hang on to someone who has no hope or chance to live.

Besides this isn't about others choosing or not, this about one's own choice. I watched my Grandpa suffer a couple years ago through years of cancer, depression etc. He didn't have any fight left in him. Don't kid yourself folks, there sort of is physician assisted suicide already. We don't call it that of course...we call it "Making them more comfortable" aka, more pain meds aka od. That's what we all chose for Grandpa. He wasn't pulling out of it and watching him shake, jerk, gasp for air, unconscious, all while knowing He didn't want to fight anyways our family decided best to make him more comfortable...what He wanted. It was only a few hours later. This type of thing will make anyone question there had line in the sand.

We probably could have let him suffer a few more day, weeks or maybe even months maybe... Who would that have been for? I highly doubt that is what God wants...would have appeased your hard line I guess.

Again I hope that you never have to go through what He did. I have a feeling your line would change...especially if it was you that lost all dignity (crapping yourself) and were just laying around hoping that the reaper will pay a visit.

Trochu · #95 03-01-2016, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

if your belief system prohibits you from prematurely ending your life, don't do it

do not use your personal belief system to interfere in the choices of others.

Sometimes an individuals belief system aligns with a universal truth, weather you believe it or not, and saying it shouldn't interfere with the choice of others seems odd to me.

sns2 · #96 03-01-2016, 05:16 PM

Unfortunately, a thread which was intended to invoke reasonable discussion is devolving. Don't some of you guys realize that you can state your ideas reasonably, without patronizing or being condescending. Please don't derail my thread because you can't be civil. Respect and admiration has never been gained through ignorance.

dumoulin · #97 03-01-2016, 05:34 PM

Im not even sure what the debate is. This is a no brainer. If you beleive God will extend your life, than don't sign on the doted line....

Truth is, doctors through nurses boost pain meds in the last moments on dying patients to ensure their painless passing away. This was the case for my father who had pancreatic and bone cancer. Anyone who has seen this done knows why... It's very ugly and no amount of 'positive thinking' will turn that around. Really, I find that short sighted and stupid.

Arachnodisiac · #98 03-01-2016, 05:39 PM

I think that if faith is why some people argue against euthanasia, then those people probably shouldn't choose to self-terminate when the time comes.

But other than that, personal religious beliefs should have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

Someone earlier said that religion is like oxygen, and it's in the room whether we see it or not.

However, we can measure oxygen and verify it in so many ways. Many people live their entire lives without religion, but lives without oxygen are alarmingly short.

dumoulin · #99 03-01-2016, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

I think that is faith is why some people argue against euthanasia, then those people probably shouldn't choose to self-terminate when the time comes.

But other than that, personal religious beliefs should have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

Someone earlier said that religion is like oxygen, and it's in the room whether we see it or not.

However, we can measure oxygen and verify it in so many ways. Many people to their entire lives without religion, but lives without oxygen are alarmingly short.

X2

The Elkster · #**100** 03-01-2016, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Actually the statement is "Your rights end where mine begin".

Suicide is wrong. ....

That is your opinion and that is about it. Good on you for taking a stand and you are more then welcome to follow that internal belief. But stay the heck out of other peoples business is all. Even god said everyone has the right to free will and to make their own mistakes if you will. And you know what they say about opinions...something about being like azzholes...

If we bought into the idea that some individuals zealous belief in some greater good was proof of being "right" none of us would own guns cause the rabid gun nuts must be right eh. I mean they believe with all their might and soul that guns are bad...not unlike how you are so sure suicide is so wrong without any factual info. Nowhere does mother nature lay out what is right or wrong. If you subscribe to a certain book then so be it. I don't run my life on fictitious literature or made up belief and that is my RIGHT.

Bushrat · #**101** 03-01-2016, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

This brings up another interesting observation and dilemma. There have been numerous documented cases of patients that have been in 'persistent vegetative states' for extended periods, (up to 19 years that I have found) that have gained consciousness.

True but in those cases they were not wasting away physically with incurable advancing cancers or physically advancing diseases. Those are cases of neurological damage to the brain or nervous system mostly in a dormant mental state in an otherwise healthy body that may or may not heal itself but are not brain dead and could wake up at anytime totally fine and walk out of the hospital.

Purple Farmer · #**102** 03-01-2016, 07:03 PM

Growing up my father taught me that taking a life was his single biggest regret. Many years later I made the decision that no one really wants to make, I took a life and I saved a few. That decision was easy, 7 years later watching my father on life support I had to be strong for my family and make a truly life changing decision, as I sit here with tears rolling down my face I can say I would do it again.

My father in law had a stroke 5 weeks ago, he's doing ok, we have had our chat and what will be will be.

Fortitude.

Bushrat · #**103** 03-01-2016, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

There is also a reality where a terminal patient can be adequately medicated to the point they are comfortable. If they aren't, it's a failure of the patient, their care giver(s) or the system somewhere. There's no excuse for that.

Possibly a physically numbed type of comfortable but there is no way to measure the invisible mental distress they may be suffering from. The nightmares and hallucinations my brother suffered while on the ever increasing amounts of morphine injected into his veins for months was very disturbing to those around him, I can only imagine what he was experiencing. When he was hallucinating he would start talking or screaming in reaction to the horrible things happening in his mind. He wasn't having any fun that's for sure.

Bushrat · #**104** 03-01-2016, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Doctors already have the choice of ending someone's life and people go to court in order to stop them from doing it. The only difference is that they disconnect the patient from life support and allow them to die of dehydration. So, what are people saying, allowing someone to die over a period of a week is just nature taking it's course and speeding up the inevitable is unnatural and unethical? IMO it's much more ethical to end someone's suffering than it is to allow it to continue.

Of course, I don't understand why some folks can't see that.
Life is precious till it isn't anymore, it's a personal thing.
Pain and suffering isn't precious and it shouldn't be a lifestyle.
Apparently some people want to be martyrs and condone living an artificially extended existence of pain and suffering because apparently pain and suffering is precious. Well All I can say to them is go for it if it makes you feel better. I'll be trying to avoid going out that way thank you.

winged1 · #**105** 03-01-2016, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trochu

Sometimes an individuals belief system aligns with a universal truth, weather you believe it or not, and saying it shouldn't interfere with the choice of others seems odd to me.

How does one know this alignment exsists?

^v^Tinda wolf^v^ · #**106** 03-01-2016, 08:17 PM

The only comment I will make on this subject is that I have an issue with people telling me what I can and can't do with my life or body.

HighlandHeart · #**107** 03-01-2016, 08:52 PM

Everyone will think assisted suicide is great until some 16 kid who is depressed wants the doctor to euthanize them.

sns2 · #**108** 03-01-2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

I think that if faith is why some people argue against euthanasia, then those people probably shouldn't choose to self-terminate when the time comes.

But other than that, personal religious beliefs should have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

Someone earlier said that religion is like oxygen, and it's in the room whether we see it or not.

However, we can measure oxygen and verify it in so many ways. Many people live their entire lives without religion, but lives without oxygen are alarmingly short.

I get myself in enough trouble without you misquoting me

What I said is that arguing that our legal system was not created and written by people with a Judeo-Christian worldview is like arguing that oxygen is not real.

Whether or not there is a God is neither here nor there. What is salient is that over 67% of Canadians self identified as Christian on the 2011 census.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...8b-eng.htm?HPA

That matters because those people vote.

sns2 · #**109** 03-01-2016, 09:02 PM

I am really not all that concerned whether we hasten the death of a loved one who is suffering with a diagnosis that is terminal. What I am worried about is where the slippery slope will end. Mentally ill? Physically handicapped? Cognitively delayed? I have always felt that this would become a reality in Canada as our demographics become largely tilted toward a greying population. Healthcare costs will invariably dictate policy, human life will be equated in dollars and cents, and as we know, gov't doesn't always get policy right. At least upon that we can agree.

Gavinmiller · #**110** 03-01-2016, 09:04 PM

absolutely for it

Silvercreek · #**111** 03-01-2016, 09:58 PM

After watching my mother who had always been a proud, dignified and strong woman suffer for a long time in severe pain and without the strength to control her bodily functions I was very relieved when finally the medical care practitioners turned the Morphine up enough so she could pass away quietly and peacefully and surrounded by her family.
She spent the last year of her life in severe pain and suffering and had begged her family and doctors to end it.
As far as I am concerned it still took too long and I know she would have chosen a physician assisted death if it could have been offered up as an option at the time.
I am going to consult with my doctor and lawyer next week to make sure that I have my desire to not suffer and die like my mother did clearly spelled out in my living will and end of life documents.
I fully support this and feel religion has no place in this.

Hunter1602 · #**112** 03-01-2016, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yup, I'm all for it and I will include it in my living will if it becomes lawful. If I'm incapacitated in anyway and couldn't do the deed myself, this is what I would want.

Couldn't agree with you more.

nonsuch · #**113** 03-01-2016, 10:12 PM

With out a doubt yes. I have watched people I love and care for suffer greatly before their death and it was hard on everyone. Why force those with a terminal illness that choose to end their life alone and in fear. Why not afford them the opportunity to include those that matter in their lives and allow them to say their peace and pass with dignity not a messy affair.

sns2 · #**114** 03-01-2016, 10:37 PM

Well, after four pages it seems pretty clear that the majority believe that people with terminal illness should have the option for physician assisted suicide. It also seems that there is an underlying concern on the part of many that legislation may head in directions not originally conveyed or anticipated. Lots of good points made and much food for thought.

kc_okotoks · #**115** 03-02-2016, 01:29 AM

for it.

Wild&Free · #**116** 03-02-2016, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sns2

I am really not all that concerned whether we hasten the death of a loved one who is suffering with a diagnosis that is terminal. What I am worried about is where the slippery slope will end. Mentally ill? Physically handicapped? Cognitively delayed? I have always felt that this would become a reality in Canada as our demographics become largely tilted toward a greying population. Healthcare costs will invariably dictate policy, human life will be equated in dollars and cents, and as we know, gov't doesn't always get policy right. At least upon that we can agree.

Ahh, the slip to Eugenics.

good tangent, but I see it as being unlikely.

Astrocyte · #**117** 03-02-2016, 08:00 AM

For it.

My reasons are if I were in a position of pallative care, in a great deal of pain, knowing full well that pain can get worse with whatever disease progression may be occurring I would not want that to continue.

I am not sure how the rules or regulations will or can be sorted out but PAD should not be supported for the non-pallative or void of extreme pain patients having a "tough day". I have read stories in the past about healthcare workers hearing patients say they want to die over things like incontinence bothering them too much, psoriasis is an inconvenience, and birthmarks. Granted I am not in that individuals shoes who may want to have PAD over incontinence for example but comparing a situation like that, non-emergent, to say an ALS or cancer pallative care patient just is not there. If someone is suffering why continue that suffering if the individual chooses to stop it?

Bushrat · #**118** 03-02-2016, 08:15 AM

What is with the folks fear mongering that Dr. Assisted suicide will be used for people who have a bad day or don't like their birth mark. Dr. Assisted suicide is for terminal patients in pain without hope of recovery.

winged1 · #**119** 03-02-2016, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sns2

I get myself in enough trouble without you misquoting me

What I said is that arguing that our legal system was not created and written by people with a Judeo-Christian worldview is like arguing that oxygen is not real.

Whether or not there is a God is neither here nor there. What is salient is that over 67% of Canadians self identified as Christian on the 2011 census.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...8b-eng.htm?HPA

That matters because those people vote.

Be honest, it's a virtue. You also included the medical field in that declaration, which made the statement false. Your concern isn't based on today's facts, but on some future speculation. You rub people by implying a group is naturally evil and are destined to take advantage of others. Politics is a field persued by many people who are intelligent, caring, and feal they can bring positive change. You are encumbent to participate in that process to contribute to its success.

Why is it that you set the stage, but criticize the play.

winged1 · #**120** 03-02-2016, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushrat

What is with the folks fear mongering that Dr. Assisted suicide will be used for people who have a bad day or don't like their birth mark. Dr. Assisted suicide is for terminal patients in pain without hope of recovery.

Fear mongering, it's the hip thing to do these days. As trump is demonstrating, it is an effective tactic.