Hunting dogs or dogs hunting??

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I think the misconception is that they only be used for packing.
whatever the reason it is simply a matter of having your dog or a rental dog with you, for everything from packing, protection, blood trailing to fetching your gatorade. while you are hunting big game.

It is all allowed for birds, why not for big game.

I agree 100% and some of us do use/say packing cause we would but you are right in saying for the above reasons.

I just am not for them being used to directly help to harvest big game in any form.

[Redfrog]

So you don't think they should be allowed for tracking a wounded animal??

[Nait Hadya]

So you don't think they should be allowed for tracking a cougar?

[HunterDave]

I do find it sad that some people are looking so desperately to the Nanny State to protect us from all things. At what point do we stop enacting more laws that are nothing more than new wording of existing laws.

Allowing pack dogs while hunting big game is a new law. Any new law needs to be clearly defined and understood. Thus the requirement for an explanation of the new law. I know from numerous google searches that there are allot of examples of " A dog may be unleashed provided that.......".

We already had laws to deal with distracted drivers but now we have more laws. Are there less distracted drivers?

That is a perfect example of why any new law to allow pack dogs must be clearly defined. Obviously someone felt that cell phones, etc had become a problem otherwise it would have been a non-issue. Had people used common sense and only used their cellphones when it was appropriate to do so then there would have been no requirement for the new law. Similarly, by allowing all dogs to be classed as pack dogs without provisions you are saying that all people will use use common sense.

We already have laws to deal with dogs harassing wildlife....will more laws prevent irrespopnsible dog owners from allowing their dog to harrass wildlife. We can wrap this blanket of redundant laws around us and all feel warm and fuzzy if we like but at the end of the day, you have people that follow laws and you people that don't and more redundant laws won't change that.

So why not make a new law easier to understand and enforce?

There will always be grey areas in every law.....regardless of the wording. If some of you had your way, we wouldn't be permitted to do anything.

I think that the responsible thing to do when proposing any new law is to make it as black and white as possible and remove as much grey as possible. If I had my way pack dogs would be permitted but not without restrictions.

Listening to some on this thread, you'd figure that hunters are the most nefarious of outdoor user groups that can't be trusted to roam the mountains without supervision. We have laws to deal with big game hunters being accompanied by doogs if it was permitted. Explain again why we need more. Is every hunter out there just one step away from being a poacher.....

Hunters are no different from anyone else. There will be honest ones and there will be others. If a hunter allows an elk of a lifetime to go because his dog flushed him out and it would be against the law then cudos to him. I would suggest though that there might be others that aren't as disciplined as that.

Being opposed to more redundant laws doesn't mean you are opposed to the premise of the law, it just means you are opposed to more redundant, pointless laws. The more conditions you add to a law, the more difficult it becomes to enforce.

As explained earlier they would not be new laws they would be provisions to a new law coming into force and, if done correctly, would make the new law easier to enforce.

We don't want pack dogs chasing, herding or molesting wildlife.....why do we need breed restrictions, weight restrictions and distance restrictions? KISS for both hunter and enforcement officer.

WE? The proposal is for PACK DOGS to accompany you on a big game hunt. If a dog cannot pack then it should not be considered a pack dog. Clearly defining what a pack dog is and isn't is KISS for both the hunter and enforcement officer. If the proposal was about companion dogs, which we all know that it is, then the pack part could be taken off of the table.

If strapping a box of bandaids on a chihuahua will classify it as a pack dog then the proposal is nothing more than a joke. And, if people find it acceptable to disguise a companion dog as a pack dog, it is not a far stretch to imagine someone fitting a pack on a hunting dog that could assist in the hunt.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Skinnydipper

Welcome to the 20th century Nait, we can't hunt ALL bears in Alberta and the ones that we can't hunt ARE of the biggest concern for most!

how does the ehtical hunter deal with this senario....then

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

So you don't think they should be allowed for tracking a wounded animal??

A dog used in tracking isnt helping in the harvest of big game which I stated I wasnt in agreement with. It would be an asset and possibly decrease animals lost.
SG

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

So you don't think they should be allowed for tracking a cougar?

WOW did you not read the part where it was stated we are talking about the law that now states you can not be acompanied by a dog while hunting big game. I stated previously that we didnt want to change anything with bird hunting or cat hunting. Cougar in the Alberta regulations regaurding dogs is seperate from big game so how bout we keep it that way.

SG

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Why is me wanting to have my dog with me on my solo big game hunts and packing with me stupid? Because you think so? I feel strongly about this and am working to try and change things with it. Your opinion is really the only waste of time here.
Thanks for making and apperance.

Funny thing is your think its stupid and boring but you read the whol thread. LOL so what does that say about you.
If you dont like it read the other threads out there that you actually have an interest in.
SG

Never said that you having your dog with you while hunting is Stupid SG.

these were all my Grandpa's(Bottom row,green shirt) hounds in Quebec where it was legal to hunt deer with dogs.If they allowed Hounds on Whitetail in Alberta,Hey Guess what i'd be doing,but i'm not going to argue about it with other people.

[Skinnydipper]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

how does the ehtical hunter deal with this senario....then

Just as SG mentioned earlier, take any advance warning the dog may be able to give you then you may have a chance to deter the unwanted visitor without using lethal force. The perfect scenario for our largest, highly protected omnivore.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Skinnydipper

Just as SG mentioned earlier, take any advance warning the dog may be able to give you then you may have a chance to deter the unwanted visitor without using lethal force. The perfect scenario for our largest, highly protected omnivore.

your avoiding the issue as described. is it safe to say this resoultion carries no merit and is dismissed.....

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

well,well,well, let's let the big boys wade in here and cut to the chase. what is the difference between your well trained pack companion alerting you to a bear(black) in the area of your camp and hunting bears(black) with dogs? in both cases the hunters are licensed for bear. bears are in season. it is during hunting hours.

how lol much lead time will you give the bear after your companion alerted you to it's presence before you pursue it..... one onethousand two onethousand hereee i come.....

Nait, I'm really starting to doubt you are who you say you are. If you don't know the difference between chasing bears for hours with hounds and tracking collars and baying a bear up for a kill and fido barking when a bear comes into camp you obviously don't have much clue about hound hunting. I'm really starting to wonder if you aren't one of those anti infiltrators we are being warned about. If you truely are a hound hunter, you are the most naive one I've ever met....either that or you are just plain obtuse.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I do find it sad that some people are looking so desperately to the Nanny State to protect us from all things. At what point do we stop enacting more laws that are nothing more than new wording of existing laws.

Allowing pack dogs while hunting big game is a new law. Any new law needs to be clearly defined and understood. Thus the requirement for an explanation of the new law. I know from numerous google searches that there are allot of examples of " A dog may be unleashed provided that.......".

We already had laws to deal with distracted drivers but now we have more laws. Are there less distracted drivers?

That is a perfect example of why any new law to allow pack dogs must be clearly defined. Obviously someone felt that cell phones, etc had become a problem otherwise it would have been a non-issue. Had people used common sense and only used their cellphones when it was appropriate to do so then there would have been no requirement for the new law. Similarly, by allowing all dogs to be classed as pack dogs without provisions you are saying that all people will use use common sense.

We already have laws to deal with dogs harassing wildlife....will more laws prevent irrespopnsible dog owners from allowing their dog to harrass wildlife. We can wrap this blanket of redundant laws around us and all feel warm and fuzzy if we like but at the end of the day, you have people that follow laws and you people that don't and more redundant laws won't change that.

So why not make a new law easier to understand and enforce?

There will always be grey areas in every law.....regardless of the wording. If some of you had your way, we wouldn't be permitted to do anything.

I think that the responsible thing to do when proposing any new law is to make it as black and white as possible and remove as much grey as possible. If I had my way pack dogs would be permitted but not without restrictions.

Listening to some on this thread, you'd figure that hunters are the most nefarious of outdoor user groups that can't be trusted to roam the mountains without supervision. We have laws to deal with big game hunters being accompanied by doogs if it was permitted. Explain again why we need more. Is every hunter out there just one step away from being a poacher.....

Hunters are no different from anyone else. There will be honest ones and there will be others. If a hunter allows an elk of a lifetime to go because his dog flushed him out and it would be against the law then cudos to him. I would suggest though that there might be others that aren't as disciplined as that.

Being opposed to more redundant laws doesn't mean you are opposed to the premise of the law, it just means you are opposed to more redundant, pointless laws. The more conditions you add to a law, the more difficult it becomes to enforce.

As explained earlier they would not be new laws they would be provisions to a new law coming into force and, if done correctly, would make the new law easier to enforce.

We don't want pack dogs chasing, herding or molesting wildlife.....why do we need breed restrictions, weight restrictions and distance restrictions? KISS for both hunter and enforcement officer.

WE? The proposal is for PACK DOGS to accompany you on a big game hunt. If a dog cannot pack then it should not be considered a pack dog. Clearly defining what a pack dog is and isn't is KISS for both the hunter and enforcement officer. If the proposal was about companion dogs, which we all know that it is, then the pack part could be taken off of the table.

If strapping a box of bandaids on a chihuahua will classify it as a pack dog then the proposal is nothing more than a joke. And, if people find it acceptable to disguise a companion dog as a pack dog, it is not a far stretch to imagine someone fitting a pack on a hunting dog that could assist in the hunt.

Dave you've gone on about all these conditions. Who will decide what breeds are suitable? Who will decide how much a dog needs to carry to be qualified. Who will DNA test the dogs to see they meet pedigree and who will test them to ensure they can pack sufficient weight? Who will pay for all the canine experts the goverment will have to hire to enforce these conditions? You starting to see why this is not a workable solution. The other point here is we are NOT asking for a new law.....we want an old, outdated one repealed. KISS Dave KISS. Dogs should be permitted to accompany big game hunters and dogs should not be permitted to harrass, herd or molest wildlife....end of story! Easy to understand and more importantly, easy to administer and enforce. COs aren't looking for things to keep them busy...let's make this easy.

[Skinnydipper]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

your avoiding the issue as described. is it safe to say this resoultion carries no merit and is dismissed.....

If you prefer to sit in camp all day and wait for them, fill your boots! No different than opening a big box of donuts and setting them on the table and waiting behind the tent flap I suppose.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

A dog used in tracking isnt helping in the harvest of big game which I stated I wasnt in agreement with. It would be an asset and possibly decrease animals lost.
SG

I would disagree with you there SH. It is definately helping. Lets say you shoot a deer and can't find it. So you head home and get your dog....and he finds it. I would say that he is the only reason you "harvested" your game....so he is definately "helping".

Either way......I'd love to see them Jack Russels work their magic!!!

tm

ps....OK this got me thinking. I shoot my deer....go home....drop my weapon off....get my dog to go track it down. Am I still hunting or am I just a dude walking his dog?

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

your avoiding the issue as described. is it safe to say this resoultion carries no merit and is dismissed.....

I would say given your active participation in this thread and that of many others that the resolution must have considerable merit.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Dogs should be permitted to accompany big game hunters and dogs should not be permitted to harrass, herd or molest wildlife....end of story!

Well put sheephunter.
Nait sure doesnt have much ground to stand on. Here is a guy who uses dogs to chase wildlife and greatly assist in his hunt, trying to tell us that it is wrong to take your companion along on a hunt with you.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Nait, I'm really starting to doubt you are who you say you are. If you don't know the difference between chasing bears for hours with hounds and tracking collars and baying a bear up for a kill and fido barking when a bear comes into camp you obviously don't have much clue about hound hunting. I'm really starting to wonder if you aren't one of those anti infiltrators we are being warned about. If you truely are a hound hunter, you are the most naive one I've ever met....either that or you are just plain obtuse.

you have to deal with the truth. senario is.....

fido alerted you to a black bear near your camp. it is hunting season,you are hunting bears. it is during hunting hours. can you shoot the bear under the authority of your hunting license? bear is not a threat .does fido's bark at the bears presence constitute hunting big game. you don't have to kill game to be seen as hunting..... if you can't shoot the bear at that moment because the dog did in fact hunt big game,,,,, how long must you wait before hunting that bear?

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

you have to deal with the truth. senario is.....

fido alerted you to a black bear near your camp. it is hunting season,you are hunting bears. it is during hunting hours. can you shoot the bear under the authority of your hunting license? bear is not a threat .does fido's bark at the bears presence constitute hunting big game. you don't have to kill game to be seen as hunting..... if you can't shoot the bear at that moment because the dog did in fact hunt big game,,,,, how long must you wait before hunting that bear?

Depends how the law read I guess. If it said big game hunters were permitted to be accompanied by a dog and the dog could not chase or molest, I'd say you could shoot it right out of your underwear from your tent door. You do realize when you kick hounds out on a bear strike that they actually chase and bay or tree the bear......right?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

Never said that you having your dog with you while hunting is Stupid SG.

these were all my Grandpa's(Bottom row,green shirt) hounds in Quebec where it was legal to hunt deer with dogs.If they allowed Hounds on Whitetail in Alberta,Hey Guess what i'd be doing,but i'm not going to argue about it with other people.

that's a nice pack of hounds,obviously successful too.

[Rocks]

I am 100% behind having dogs being able to accompany big game hunters. I do lots of solo backpack and horseback trips, having a dog along would definitely add a lot of companionship to those trips. It's ok talking to horses, but a dog is totally one or two levels up...

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

you have to deal with the truth. senario is.....

fido alerted you to a black bear near your camp. it is hunting season,you are hunting bears. it is during hunting hours. can you shoot the bear under the authority of your hunting license? bear is not a threat .does fido's bark at the bears presence constitute hunting big game. you don't have to kill game to be seen as hunting..... if you can't shoot the bear at that moment because the dog did in fact hunt big game,,,,, how long must you wait before hunting that bear?

As the law reads now this would be illegal. You may not have a dog in camp if you are hunting big game out of it. So....you can not shoot that bear under the authority of your hunting licence. Fido did alert you to it though so you can keep an eye on it.....good dog Fido...good dog.

Same scenario at 3:00am after a long day. No dog in camp. Yes you can now shoot that bear. Maybe you won't even know he was there......maybe he'll let you know he was.

tm

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Dave you've gone on about all these conditions. Who will decide what breeds are suitable? Who will decide how much a dog needs to carry to be qualified. Who will DNA test the dogs to see they meet pedigree and who will test them to ensure they can pack sufficient weight? Who will pay for all the canine experts the goverment will have to hire to enforce these conditions? You starting to see why this is not a workable solution. The other point here is we are NOT asking for a new law.....we want an old, outdated one repealed. KISS Dave KISS. Dogs should be permitted to accompany big game hunters and dogs should not be permitted to harrass, herd or molest wildlife....end of story! Easy to understand and more importantly, easy to administer and enforce. COs aren't looking for things to keep them busy...let's make this easy.

To answer your first bunch of questions all that you would have to do is develop a set criteria with SRD that accurately describes what a pack dog is and anyone that wanted to take their dog with them would have to get their dog certified as a pack dog. Any fees associated with certifying the dog would be paid by a one time testing fee at the dog's owner's expense. It wouldn't matter if the dog was a mutt or a purebred but it would help to prevent undesirable dogs being in the bush.

Here is the present law in the Wildlife Act:

"Use of dogs for hunting big game
45(1) A person shall not
(a) be accompanied by a dog while hunting big game, or
(b) allow a dog to pursue big game.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply
(a) to an activity that is specifically authorized by or under a
licence authorizing the control of wildlife depredation or
the collection of wildlife, or
(b) during an open season in which hunting with dogs is
specifically authorized for the kind of big game being
hunted."

A sub-subsection (c) would need to be included in subsection (2) and it would be considered a new law/regulation. Also, in article 5, "Terms and conditions" a definition of a pack dog would need to be included. If SRD got that far and decided that there was no requirement for additional regulations regarding the limitations to what a pack dog can or cannot do then that's fine.

If this is just a case of a bunch of good 'ol boys getting together and saying that it'd be nice to have a dog along for whatever reason then hell, I'll jump on the bandwagon too.

However, if people are serious about getting this proposal approved, and I think that many are, then everyone from the individual hunter right up to the bureaucrats that make the final decision, will need to be convinced that it is good for hunting in Alberta. Sorry but IMHO having a dog accompany you on a big game hunt because: a. he can carry things; b. he'd be a good companion; and, c. he'd be a good warning system for bears, is not enough firepower to get it approved.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

If this is just a case of a bunch of good 'ol boys getting together and saying that it'd be nice to have a dog along for whatever reason then hell, I'll jump on the bandwagon too.

However, if people are serious about getting this proposal approved, and I think that many are, then everyone from the individual hunter right up to the bureaucrats that make the final decision, will need to be convinced that it is good for hunting in Alberta. Sorry but IMHO having a dog accompany you on a big game hunt because: a. he can carry things; b. he'd be a good companion; and, c. he'd be a good warning system for bears, is not enough firepower to get it approved.

I think the better question is why is it not allowed. I'm sure if you look back into history the intent of this law was to prevent "hounding". I believe that the true intent/spirit of the law has been misinterpreted in "modern times". If it were not so, then there would be stipulations and guidelines for Joe dog walker out there.

I agree with you HD......this should be about having a dog with you. It need not be a pack dog thing. If you want your dog to pack....let it pack. There is laws already in existence that do not allow you to harrass wildlife.....which includes your dog.

I do not think that there is a bunch of new legislation that needs to come out to make it work. Works here and we're not that far removed from you guys. Yah just gotta find a Govt. type willing to listen, use some common sense and get off their lazy arse.......ok....maybe it'll be pretty tough.

tm

[HunterDave]

TM - The act states that you can't use a dog to hunt big game other than bears, etc. But, that doesn't exclude them from accompanying you while you are hunting big game? Correct?

From the NWT Wildlife Act:

http://www.justice.gov.nt.ca/pdf/ACTS/Wildlife.pdf

35. (1) No person shall use a dog to hunt big game
other than polar bear, wolverine or prescribed big
game, or allow a dog under his or her ownership or
control to run free and pursue such big game.

Transportation by dogs
(2) Subsection (1) does not prohibit the use of a
dog solely for transportation.

Right to kill dogs
(3) Where there is a contravention of subsection
(1), an officer may kill the dog in question if the
officer is unable to capture it.

[Tundra Monkey]

You are correct....that is how it is implemented. The key word is hunt.

There is your model to walk into the office with.....see, no real work for em'

tm

edit: Wolverine opens on July 25th and closes April 30th. Stinkin' only 9 months....I hate our short seasons up here

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

There is your model to walk into the office with.....see, no real work for em'

I'm thinking that it'll take more than just that to get the foot in the door initially. Provided that it doesn't cause all kinds of problems, eventually it could evolve into something the same as what you have but, as long as the regs are written correctly, it's going to take a little time to get to that point.

[Tundra Monkey]

You work on this one and I'll go to our meeting on Sat. and see what I can do about getting a hunter host program set up here in the NWT. Re-addressing our Wildlife Act up here and that's one of the items I'd like to see addressed. No promises other than there is a bunch of us trying our best up here.

tm

[HunterDave]

I just talked to my neighbor 3 doors down (everyone is 3 doors down in Morinville ) who is an executive on the Morinville F&W Club about joining. They are listed as AFHA affiliates(?) for this zone. The crossbow issue got me thinking about it but the more that I'm learning about how the system works the more that I think it'd be worthwhile to join. Perhaps several of us could endorse/present Sheep's proposal in various zones to give it a boost?

What do you think Sheep? Do you think that we could all sing from the same sheet of music and would it help the cause? Or, would you rather go it alone?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

As the law reads now this would be illegal. You may not have a dog in camp if you are hunting big game out of it. So....you can not shoot that bear under the authority of your hunting licence. Fido did alert you to it though so you can keep an eye on it.....good dog Fido...good dog.

Same scenario at 3:00am after a long day. No dog in camp. Yes you can now shoot that bear. Maybe you won't even know he was there......maybe he'll let you know he was.

tm

comprehension?

well, now the supporters of this yuippie resolution are advocating breaking the law? thought that was against the policy of this web site? that and professing anti hunting sentiment.....

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

comprehension?

well, now the supporters of this yuippie resolution are advocating breaking the law? thought that was against the policy of this web site? that and professing anti hunting sentiment.....

You really have no clue do you!

Show me on place that anyone here is advocating breaking the law?
TM stated as the law reads "now". Meaning the dog isnt supposed to be in camp so then would be illegal, not that it alerted you of a bear.
This thread may have moved to fast for you to keep up but that is what we are trying to change the ability to have the dog in camp.

Seems to me your fighting this pretty hard, seems to be a little personal initative to try and deter trying to change these regulations.
SG