Do you think all sheep should be on a draw?

For all those that think full curl is a good option province wide......you haven't spent much time in K-Country. I doubt that 20% of the rams in K-Country would ever make full curl no matter how long they lived. These big loose-curled rams are far different from those in other parts of the province. It may work in some areas but not in K-Country. It's funny all the comments here. I think during the entire sheep season last year I saw two hunters and we saw at least 5 legal rams and I was involved in the killing of two very mature ones. When guys start complaining about the lack of legal rams and all the hunting pressure, it makes me wonder how hard they are hunting. I likely hunt one of the most heavily pressured areas in Alberta yet very rarely ever see another sheep hunter....hmmmm, wonder why that is?

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[sheep nut]

Thanks for the input. I took a ram 15 years ago and have been looking for a book ram ever since. I have helped 5 friends get here sheep, (all bigger than mine! 176,178), but all but 1 of those hunts we spent more time looking over our shoulder at other hunters than looking at the rams. I do know that other than opening and closing week, you usually have the valley to yourself. But most of the sheep are killed opening week. Lets talk about the stats. These are old numbers, I'm not sure where they are now. About 4500 hunters want to buy a tag. They kill about 170 rams. There are about 32 wmu's that hold sheep. If we threated sheep like antlered elk and split the draws up by all the wmu's. Say that you should be able to hunt a sheep every 3 years. That 4500 number of hunters is now 1500, divided over 32 wmu's.B]Thats 32 hunters per wmu.[/B] However I wouldn't want to grow bigger sheep so the natives could shoot them. That needs to be stoped for sure.

[sheep nut]

Originally Posted by pika

I think you are dreaming, if you think you will get a sheep draw in two years, look at 437, how long to get drawn there? What about 408 if you didn't put in first year. When a draw is made for sheep every one and their dog puts in for it even if they've never hunted sheep before, basically your are diluting your chances of getting a tag to almost no chance at all. Your odds of a good ram are much better as it is right now.

I was drawn in 437 the year after the natives shot all those rams. I just came back from a month of guideing for elk in BC. I hadn't heard anything about that happening. I walked around redcap 10 times looking for a good ram but only found 1 squeaker fullcurl and let him go. I blistered both feet bad. When I found out that they killed all the big rams just because, I was wild. If Ihad seen them do that just to be spitefull (lets just say I would still be doing time). And i am in the first draft of 408 draws.

Originally Posted by lazy ike

If you reduce the number of people who HAVE to use a tag to hunt, I expect it will increase the number of desirable trophy animals for those who DON'T require a tag or season for that matter. That would seem to be a benefit for those who can subsistance hunt trophy rams.

I have yet to see a native hunt sheep for trophy reasons. If anyone has seen this, please lets here your story.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

For all those that think full curl is a good option province wide......you haven't spent much time in K-Country. I doubt that 20% of the rams in K-Country would ever make full curl no matter how long they lived. These big loose-curled rams are far different from those in other parts of the province. It may work in some areas but not in K-Country. It's funny all the comments here. I think during the entire sheep season last year I saw two hunters and we saw at least 5 legal rams and I was involved in the killing of two very mature ones. When guys start complaining about the lack of legal rams and all the hunting pressure, it makes me wonder how hard they are hunting. I likely hunt one of the most heavily pressured areas in Alberta yet very rarely ever see another sheep hunter....hmmmm, wonder why that is?

This is why there should be a minimum age as a baseline also.

[LongDraw]

The Outfitters have a 30 % success rate, yet they have to hunt north of the Bow, and they have a shorter season by one month. There is absolutely no reason for sheep to be on draw. I see lots of legal rams every year that I hunt them. You know you are in the wrong place if there are 27 others in the basin that you are in on opening day...

[nube]

I agree with Sheephunter and Longdraw as well. I could kill a ram every year if I wanted to. I can't understand why it takes guys sometimes ten years to see a legal one.

[pika]

Originally Posted by SNIPER

This is why there should be a minimum age as a baseline also.

It's hard enough training SRD CO's and hunters on what 4/5 or full curl is, many don't have a clue how to line up the horns, some don't even know you don't tag a sheep on the hind leg, it's a fact. What happens when someone shoots a 180 ram that shows 7 rings but kinda looks like it broomed off a couple of years just more head aches for everyone and maybe a loophole for getting off being charged with shooting a short sheep. I've seen sheep horns that were an absolute bugger while in hand to count rings.

[pika]

Originally Posted by SNIPER

I have yet to see a native hunt sheep for trophy reasons. If anyone has seen this, please lets here your story.

Head down to Willow Valley on January 12 bump into some of the locals who hunt sheep fanatically and you'll quickly find out who's knocking off sheep after season. You might want to ask the name of the guide from the Blood reserve who takes guides/outfitters out after season to score easy rams on winter range, this case went to court in November I haven't heard the outcome be nice to find out who the lawyer was in this case.

You should read Alberta Game Warden more often one good read was on the poaching/subsistence hunting in the Red Cap, it only takes one guy to wipe out rams on winter range.

Originally Posted by pika

Head down to Willow Valley on January 12 bump into some of the locals who hunt sheep fanatically and you'll quickly find out who's knocking off sheep after season. You might want to ask the name of the guide from the Blood reserve who takes guides/outfitters out after season to score easy rams on winter range, this case went to court in November I haven't heard the outcome be nice to find out who the lawyer was in this case.

You should read Alberta Game Warden more often one good read was on the poaching/subsistence hunting in the Red Cap, it only takes one guy to wipe out rams on winter range.

Obviously there is something going on illegally if these instances are in court or in the Alberta game Warden mag.

[7MM Mike]

First, I'll start by saying that I am no expert. I have hunted only a couple of southern zones, The lack of other hunters (most other hunters I've seen is two) as well as the number of Good Rams I have seen these past years leads me to believe there is no problem with lack of Quality Rams or pressure in these zones. Many other zones might suffer from too much pressure - most likely due to easy access. I think limiting OHV and road access is key to keeping the people out as they are a naturally lazy species, and dont like to walk too far.
As far as putting on a Full curl restriction, I'm with Sheep on this one - I've seen some real swoopers in K-country that were HEAVILY broomed, some that I'm not sure were even 4/5's let alone full curl. Just would not make sense with the genetics.

my two cents....

[Mintaka]

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Trophy Bighorn. Access to rams in the Kananaskis Country is easy and they get picked over pretty good. That area has the potential for some good rams instead of 4/5 squeekers.

Please keep spreading that rumour...lol

If some of those loose curled rams made it to 14.5 years there would be a quality ram.

Unless you are talking Calgary Zoo...you aren't going to see many rams that old in the wild...even in Parks. Very few park rams make 10. Geist's book, "Mountain Sheep" is a great read on the subject.

[Simpatico Outdoors]

I am not sure if the Res RBHS tag should go as full draw or full curl only. What i do believe can make a difference is actually the sheep hunters and the access to sheep country. The less additional seismic lines and clear cut logging roads created into the eastern slopes would eliminate easier access. Also from a few of the Sheep hunters i have met the approach they take is selective harvest. The first rams they harvested in the early part of their chases were in a 160 category and/or past legal. After this they raised the bar and will not take a Ram unless it is bigger. Over 30 years two of these gentlemen have taken 2 rams each. They are currently working on a third but it has been going on for 6 & 9 years. Each year they can harvest decent sheep in their trips however they want larger rams than previous.

A very well known outfitter also told me not to worry about getting the biggest ram on the mountain for your first. Just worry about finding one that is legal. After this achievment then move on for the quest to get your best bruiser.

So i guess my point is Alberta has to protect sheep habitat and hunters need to harvest responsibly. Especially as they learn about the genetics and qualities the sheep in their areas of interest carry.

Simpatico

A very well known outfitter also told me not to worry about getting the biggest ram on the mountain for your first. Just worry about finding one that is legal. After this achievment then move on for the quest to get your best bruiser.

So i guess my point is Alberta has to protect sheep habitat and hunters need to harvest responsibly. Especially as they learn about the genetics and qualities the sheep in their areas of interest carry.

Well said...I was 18 years between bighorns.....still looking for Mr. Big or that covetted archery tag in 408.

[Mintaka]

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[gunslinger]

guys to get a book ram is unreal hard,,,we take alot of dall rams every year in very remote areas and you be hard pressed to take two or three book rams a year,,,,it is a very hard feat guys. it may take a lifetime and these are very experienced sheep hunters. and to get a book ram you better look at alot of sheep because on a sheep 2 inches could make or break the book.

[7MM Mike]

Originally Posted by Mintaka

If takes you 18 years to get Mr. Big there is a problem and I don't think the archery draw is the answer.

Brilliant! Mintaka, Please explain the problems with the Ram quality and numbers in Alberta, and how you might go about correcting them - your extensive knowledge of the subject is obvious. I am all ears.

Originally Posted by Mintaka

If takes you 18 years to get Mr. Big there is a problem and I don't think the archery draw is the answer.

Naw, just want to kill one with a bow.......got rifle and muzzleloader covered. He doesn't need to be Mr. Big with the bow. I've just never haunted the traditional big sheep spots...I guess it shows but I've sure had lots of fun and seen loads of great rams ...just not the one I'm looking for. I'd rather hunt the out of the way places. I'm happy to keep buying a tag every year and looking though. If a big ram were that important I'd have hunted the Sanctuary when you could or Cadomin. For me it's about being out there every year!

[Mintaka]

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Originally Posted by Mintaka

Maybe it isn't a problem, but there is not many 40" bighorns to shoot like it was in the 50's. I don't know how to correct it but I know a draw is not the answer. As far as extensive knowledge of the subject...I just like to hunt sheep.
Maybe you have an idea to get more sheep older than 6.5?

LOL...careful where you go with that one...Mike is likely one of the most successful young sheephunters there is. I'm sure he could show you a whole lot of ways to kill a ram older than 6...lol I think it's starts with hard work...wouldn't you say Mike? This guy has busted his butt harder than anyone I know in K-Country and it sure paid off this year! He's a guy I'd share a sheep camp with any day of the week! He earned his ram by hiking hundreds of miles and I'm sure there will be many more to come in the near future. While I'm an old dog, I could likely show you a few ways to kill a ram older than 6 too. I know I did a few others this year.

If takes you 18 years to get Mr. Big there is a problem and I don't think the archery draw is the answer

Thought about this comment a bit more too. I've hunted elk, moose, mule deer and whitetail for the same 18 years and the one critter that I shot that just about made book was a sheep. Haven't come anywhere near as close with the other critters. If I'd have waited for Mr. Big in all those species, I wouldn't have killed a single animal in 18 years. Guess there are problems right across the board or maybe I'm just a crappy hunter but man I do have fun.

[Mintaka]

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I'm not sure why you think it's so bad Mintaka...we had some brutal winters in 1996 and 1997 that devestated our sheep herds and they are just starting to bounce back. I'm seeing more legal and more older rams every year. I think nature is the biggest culpurit here. I think 2007 was one of the best years for big mature rams that we've had for over a decade and when you see all the big rams that where shot, it's hard to argue. In 2002, there wasn't a single ram shot in 408...this year there were at least 9 and three or four of those grossed in the book and all save one were over 8 years old. Tell me why it's so bad again?

Originally Posted by SNIPER

This is why there should be a minimum age as a baseline also.

Sadly it would never work with bighorns...just no way to accurately age them through a spotting scope. It works great with thinhorns but the rings just aren't distinct enough on bighorns. Even in BC where they have an age minimum on thinhorns, they don't on bighorns. Otherwise it would be a great way to do it I think.

Originally Posted by hawken

I think it might be a good idea to have a life time limit of two or so.
that way you might pass on the smaller ones.

I don't really think it's the experienced sheep hunters shooting them all...I think there are far more first-timers killing rams than anything and nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of sheep hunters in the field that have never killed a ram. Limiting a person to two rams really wouldn't do much to change the overall harvest I don't think. Most hunters I know kill the first legal ram they see and then hold out for something larger. That's why I was 18 years between rams...my first one scored 176. I did take a smaller one after 18 years but only because I was hunting with a muzzleloader. I likely could have killed one every two years in those 18 years but like most that have shot a ram, I chose not to. I did accompany many first timers on successful hunts during those years though. It might stop a few rams from being killed but I suspect the vast majority are taken by first-timers.

[Mintaka]

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[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Sadly it would never work with bighorns...just no way to accurately age them through a spotting scope. It works great with thinhorns but the rings just aren't distinct enough on bighorns. Even in BC where they have an age minimum on thinhorns, they don't on bighorns. Otherwise it would be a great way to do it I think.

I'm for sure no expert I guided thin horns out of Atlin for 2 seasons and your right it's not bad counting growth rings.Bighorns are a hard go,even when in the hand at the same time when you see some big old monarch (few and far between) broomed off short but half the size of your fist you can bet he's 7+
am I wrong? I know I am over cautious I remember watching a Ram in 418 for 2 hours I was 99% sure he was legal but just and only on one side I elected to let him be some guys passed me as I made my way to the next area and couldn't have looked at the ram for more than 5 minutes before shooting he was legal with a good 3/8" to spare told them to get it to F&W before things started to tighten up

Originally Posted by Mintaka

That's great to see that 408 has produced good rams that you don't have to second guess, but other zones have few rams 1 season past legal.

I was using 408 as an example of a zone I had hard data for but I'm sure the same could be said of every other WMU up and down the Rockies. It's definitely not an anomaly. The winters of '96 and '97 really set our sheep populations back.

[Swarovski]

Great Topic and discussion all!
I agree Donny Bear if you have spent the time looking at a lot of sheep and alot of sheep hunters do then yes you are right.

Bighorns are a hard go,even when in the hand at the same time when you see some big old monarch (few and far between) broomed off short but half the size of your fist you can bet he's 7+ am I wrong?

I think it is an absolute priveledge to hunt sheep without draw and I think too many in this province take it for granted. Yes one may see alot of hunters driving Hwy 40 looking for sheep but how many does a guy see when you get a few km's into the backcountry... not very many in my experience.

I would like to add that it is a shame to see big broomed off busters dying of old age because they will never make 4/5's and instead one may settle for a younger sqeaker ram 5-6 years old that has its lamb tips. These rams never get a chance to pass on genetics and the older broomed hogs are usually past there prime.

I for one am searching for that big broomed off buster with a couple of teeth left and if he doesn't go 4/5's it would be a shame for him to turn into wolf bait. I know aging a bighorn vs thinhorn is very difficult but I think the old imaginary tip rule would be beneficial to the honest ethical hunter.