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View Poll Results: Allow .223Ē diam. bullets as new min. for hunting?
Yes 140 38.25%
No 207 56.56%
Undecided 19 5.19%
Voters: 366. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Anybody?
Because it's a rimfire that cannot produce 1000ft/lbs of energy, as a matter of fact it can't even produce 400ft/lbs of energy.
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  #302  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:29 AM
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Default Cf .22 ?

Out of the gate, I freely admit that I have no experience with CF .22ís on anything bigger than coyotes. For this purpose, they seem to work well. Iíve read this entire thread, and am reminded of something that Ackley wrote years ago about the .220 Swift for deer. In a nutshell, it was more about bullet construction than any other factor. Therefore, in 2018, if there was a high BC/SD heavy for caliber bullet available for rifles with barrels that could impart the correct rotation, I suppose that it could be a feasible option. Wouldnít be my choice, but maybe for others....
My 2 cents
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  #303  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:32 AM
KodiakHntr KodiakHntr is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
The .22 mag is a proven deer killer. 40 for 40 (that is real world experience Chuck)......should it be legal? If not....why not? Anybody?


Cool story bro.







You really canít grasp the concept that bullets matter, can you....
A 40gr bullet designed for a rimfire, that was designed to shoot gophers, flung at well under 2000fps, isnít in the same league as a bullet designed for shooting deer at well over 3000fps. Kinda funny that you are trying to draw that comparison though.

Ever hear the saying ď20 years of experience, isnít the same as one year of experience 20 times overĒ?

Everyone has life experience, not everyone learns from it.
  #304  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:51 AM
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Because it's a rimfire that cannot produce 1000ft/lbs of energy, as a matter of fact it can't even produce 400ft/lbs of energy.
Point? Apparently it works.
Have you came up with the magic number for required ft/lbs of energy required to effectively harvest all big game in Alberta on your own? Judging by the poll results, your number is lower than the majorities (oh, and the rulemakers as well)
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  #305  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KodiakHntr View Post
Cool story bro.







You really canít grasp the concept that bullets matter, can you....
A 40gr bullet designed for a rimfire, that was designed to shoot gophers, flung at well under 2000fps, isnít in the same league as a bullet designed for shooting deer at well over 3000fps. Kinda funny that you are trying to draw that comparison though.

Ever hear the saying ď20 years of experience, isnít the same as one year of experience 20 times overĒ?

Everyone has life experience, not everyone learns from it.
In the words of BB356......Cool....

Many a day I wish I only had 20 years experience....I'd be 32 again
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  #306  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Point? Apparently it works.
Have you came up with the magic number for required ft/lbs of energy required to effectively harvest all big game in Alberta on your own? Judging by the poll results, your number is lower than the majorities (oh, and the rulemakers as well)
My point is you comparing a 22mag to a 223 is pretty laughable.

The magic number that's been thrown around North America for ages is 1000ft/lbs of energy, not something I've come up with on my own, unlike the numbers you've been throwing around.

I don't care about what the majority of people think, when one sheep jumps off a cliff others will blindly follow. I've been looking at this from a practical standpoint and based my decision on actual expirience people have documented along with the ballistic facts of the cartridge. You've ignored both the testimony of the people who have actually used the caliber in question as well as the ballistic facts of the cartridge and "the ol' boys" rule of thumb of 1000ft/lbs of energy.

I never said I would choose to use a 223 on deer, but that isn't what the question for this thread is. I think the 223 can effectively kill deer and may be the right choice for some hunters. You, and a few others are making up your own opinions on the cartridge based on your feelers, ignoring actual testimony as well as scientific facts and the ol' boys standard of the accepted amount of minimum energy required.

When it comes to the rule makers, there are more who allow the 223 than those who don't



Mic drop
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Last edited by Kurt505; 08-10-2018 at 09:43 AM.
  #307  
Old 08-10-2018, 10:10 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Oh Boy

Ha

https://youtu.be/IjzpLN46nOo
  #308  
Old 08-10-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Point? Apparently it works.
Have you came up with the magic number for required ft/lbs of energy required to effectively harvest all big game in Alberta on your own? Judging by the poll results, your number is lower than the majorities (oh, and the rulemakers as well)
Energy is a useless number! Are we really going around on this again?
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****1000 Club****

The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

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  #309  
Old 08-10-2018, 10:32 AM
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Anybody?
I got you man

Youíll tell me how big these deer were, likely the small side of class 2, youíll tell me the range the were typicall shot at, kill zone aimed for...

And Iíll tell you exactly why the 22 mag did the trick in this very niche application. And it has nothing to do with energy. With that s.d. And impact velocity you will get a certain depth of penetration and just adequate temp/perm wound cavity. Maybe 8Ē for hypothetical guess at 75 yards...bear with me...

However for standard big game hunting we look for say 14-16Ē penetration in class 2 game out to 300 yrds or more. And say 18-22Ē penetration on class 3 game. So you need more s.d. And more impact velocity to do those things we ask most often for big game cartridges/bullets...with that weíll get more than adequate temp/perm wound cavities. Energy means nothing, itís there, but is not a factor. Penetration is a product of s.d. And impact velocity...and of course assuming youíre using a bullet designed for the job. In our case killing big game.

A .223 rem would likely only take me half as far as Iíd rather be prepared for but certainly more than enough for some closer ranges. The .22-250 would take me far enough in most cases.
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Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
  #310  
Old 08-10-2018, 10:43 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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400 lb class II Hog ver 22 LR

https://youtu.be/4J7kgpIaGeI

Crazy people have been hunting big game all around the world with rimfires. LOL.

It's the best they can do. Ha

I own to big of a gun, guess I'll have to keep it since its bought and paided for.
  #311  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
The .22 mag is a proven deer killer. 40 for 40 (that is real world experience Chuck)......should it be legal? If not....why not? Anybody?
Iíve shot 1200 pound cows with the 22LR. Sure, use it. They are legal in places.
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  #312  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:19 AM
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Iíve shot 1200 pound cows with the 22LR. Sure, use it. They are legal in places.
Same at our farm. 1200 to 1600 lb'ers like nothing with the old 22 long solid lead 40gr bullets.

Always lights out on the first shot followed by a very sharp knife.

Yum Yum.
  #313  
Old 08-10-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Once upon a time, long long ago, I may or may not have been part of a domestic whitetail deer cull. May have been 40+. Veterinarian supervised of course. Barbituates weren't going to cut it. .22 mag may have done the trick.
Would that be experience?
Yeah there is a difference between a .22 mag and a .223, I get that. Not enough IMO. Would work well in some scenarios, but not all.

Gotta draw a line somehere. I'm good with .240 minimum
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
Experience says it does the job. Who said anything about behind the ear or head shots?
You drawing a line SC? What factors into this imaginary line you have drawn (not interested in hearing your theories on S.D) ...IN YOUR OPINION?
I didn't realize we dumped back to kindergarten. First the comparison you've made is equivalent to 30 Carbine and 30-06.

Real world experience is great and you should apply it with intelligence. I've shot .22 caliber game appropriate bullets into chest cavities and necks and done very well.

Your .22 mag experience was essentially stunt shooting in controlled environments. If you can follow that equation the conversation is over.

Your last 5 posts smell terribly of a person understanding they've lost the argument on logic and now are on the path to create distracting and irrelevant strawmen out of pride.

Keep rocking the cool stories bro.
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  #314  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:01 PM
KodiakHntr KodiakHntr is offline
 
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Too funny. I was thinking that it was very reminiscent of using logic and reason with a 5 year old who is being told he can’t have ice cream for breakfast.

I thought the domestic deer murdering in a farm yard was pretty compelling testimony though...... laughin’.
  #315  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:41 PM
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Mountain Ti, Iím not drawing a line, they could allow every firearm and air gun and spear and blowgun for all I care. I would learn how to use anything allowed if I so wanted.. Nothing has been too tough for me to figure yet.

I have no doubt you killed those does with boiler room shots. You used it within its limits, thatís the point. Like we are expected to with all our choices available.
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****1000 Club****

The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
  #316  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:20 PM
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[QUOTE=Kurt505;3824446
The magic number that's been thrown around North America for ages is 1000ft/lbs of energy, not something I've come up with on my own, unlike the numbers you've been throwing around.

"the ol' boys" rule of thumb of 1000ft/lbs of energy.




Mic drop Thank you
[/QUOTE]

What numbers have I thrown around? Besides my opinion on minimum caliber?

But the 1000 ft/lbs of energy is a pretty fair rule of thumb

http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/bal.../223rembal.htm

Looks like a decent 50-60 yard cartridge

http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/bal.../243winbal.htm

350 ish.....about right

http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/bal.../300wbmbal.htm

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  #317  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KodiakHntr View Post
Too funny. I was thinking that it was very reminiscent of using logic and reason with a 5 year old who is being told he canít have ice cream for breakfast.

I thought the domestic deer murdering in a farm yard was pretty compelling testimony though...... laughiní.
Thanks for your insightful post. Have a snickers
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  #318  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
I didn't realize we dumped back to kindergarten. First the comparison you've made is equivalent to 30 Carbine and 30-06.

Real world experience is great and you should apply it with intelligence. I've shot .22 caliber game appropriate bullets into chest cavities and necks and done very well.

Your .22 mag experience was essentially stunt shooting in controlled environments. If you can follow that equation the conversation is over.

Your last 5 posts smell terribly of a person understanding they've lost the argument on logic and now are on the path to create distracting and irrelevant strawmen out of pride.

Keep rocking the cool stories bro.

You seem to be getting worked up...hope you ain't kicking the dog out of frustration

One thing I have noticed in my limited experience, those with vast experience and are accomplished hunters, typically aren't blowhards.....toot their own horn so to speak. Not always the case, but usually the norm.
One thing about the interweb, there are times you don't actually know who you are really talking to, and their experience. Hopefully I can keep at it long enough to gain as much experience as some of you characters

Hope you can figure out the reference of the .22 mag I alluded to. I know I wouldn't condone it's use in a hunting situation


And bro? Who even says that anymore besides someone with a set of white oakleys on their dash
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  #319  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:33 PM
KodiakHntr KodiakHntr is offline
 
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I was merely pointing out that if you think executing farm animals in an enclosed space is the same as hunting a wild animal on it’s own turf, then you are missing the whole point of this conversation.

I can spell stuff out for you, but I can’t understand it for you. If you can’t see how weak your 22 mag argument is in the context of this discussion then there really isn’t anything else that can be said.
  #320  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:39 PM
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I was merely pointing out that if you think executing farm animals in an enclosed space is the same as hunting a wild animal on itís own turf, then you are missing the whole point of this conversation.

I can spell stuff out for you, but I canít understand it for you. If you canít see how weak your 22 mag argument is in the context of this discussion then there really isnít anything else that can be said.
Executing.....nice choice of words

Pretty sure you may have been missing my point all along. Went right over top
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  #321  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:51 PM
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The point was ridiculous actually.
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  #322  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:02 PM
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Executing.....nice choice of words

Pretty sure you may have been missing my point all along. Went right over top
I think I got your point.

You don't think a 223 is big enough to use on big game.

The facts show otherwise.

You refuse to accept facts because they don't line up with your beliefs.

You have no expirience hunting big game with a 223 but you feel you are more aware of its capabilities than hunters who have actually used them.

Did I miss anything?
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  #323  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:02 PM
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The point was ridiculous actually.
.22 rimfire killed largest grizz in Alberta. .22 mag will ethically take a whitetail in certain. Situations. I have no doubt a .223 Remington will do the same in certain situation. Should they be legal to hunt with in Alberta? In my opinion....no.
Get it now Chuck? Stand in your tip toes if you still canít grasp that
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  #324  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:05 PM
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I think I got your point.

You don't think a 223 is big enough to use on big game.

The facts show otherwise.

You refuse to accept facts because they don't line up with your beliefs.

You have no expirience hunting big game with a 223 but you feel you are more aware of its capabilities than hunters who have actually used them.

Did I miss anything?
What happened to 1000 ft/lbs of energy Kurt? You still believe in siding with the minorityís? Youíre not one of those sheeple are you?
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  #325  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
.22 rimfire killed largest grizz in Alberta. .22 mag will ethically take a whitetail in certain. Situations. I have no doubt a .223 Remington will do the same in certain situation. Should they be legal to hunt with in Alberta? In my opinion....no.
Get it now Chuck? Stand in your tip toes if you still canít grasp that
Like I said previously. Bring your 22 mag down and I will show you in five minutes how ridiculous your point is. It is absolutely asinine.
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  #326  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:17 PM
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What happened to 1000 ft/lbs of energy Kurt? You still believe in siding with the minorityís? Youíre not one of those sheeple are you?
I agree with what makes sense, whether it's the belief of the minority or the majority doesn't matter to me.

In this case I believe you base your opinion of the 223 on your feelings and not facts and you have a hard time accepting defeat.

You are totally entitled to your opinion whether it's right or wrong. The question was do you think the 223 should be legal in Alberta for big game, you don't think it should because of what some guys "might" do, and that's fine. I think it should be legal because of what some guys can do with it. Like I said, used within its range I think a 223 is a very effective killer and I also believe more game is injured from guys who think their magnum rifles make them long range marksmen and end up 2 feet from point of aim by the time the bullet hits the deer in the guts than guys shooting a 223. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to that.
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  #327  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:18 PM
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What happened to 1000 ft/lbs of energy Kurt? You still believe in siding with the minorityís? Youíre not one of those sheeple are you?
Ft lbs is a joke unless you were born before 1970. It seems to be the cut off for beating that drum.

Think first, second, and third about bullet.
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  #328  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:19 PM
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Itís funny. If they were looking to up the cartridge limit people would lose their minds.
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  #329  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:23 PM
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Ft lbs is a joke unless you were born before 1970. It seems to be the cut off for beating that drum.
I have no doubt that in your hands a .223 would be just fine chuck. You would know it's limitations and stay within them. Problem being, a regulation change is for every joe blow out there.
I wouldn't have a problem using my 22/250 on a sausage deer....but with that being said, I'm fine with what the regulations state at the moment as I can guarantee not everyone will stay within the limitations of the smaller bore. I'm sure the problem already exists, why compound it?
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  #330  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:26 PM
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Itís funny. If they were looking to up the cartridge limit people would lose their minds.
On certain species it might be a fine idea. When I get my alberta grizz tag, I know I wouldn't be packing a .243 as common sense would tell me that it would be a poor choice. Unfortunately common sense ain't so common
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