Big sheep changes

[buckman]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

We have to be careful what we wish for here, once sheep goes on a draw it will never come back and it will quickly creep into longer wait times until most will be lucky to draw one or two tags in a life time.
I personally would rather have the opportunity to chase 160 class Rams every year than a 180 class ram once in my life.

Unfortunately a draw will probably become a reality at some point.

It seems that its the way its going for most game species.

It has worked for Mule deer,and Moose. Not sure how it would pan out for Sheep.

One would think at the very least it would make for a more pleasant hunt with the hunters spread out more,and perhaps more legal Rams available to choose from.

[lead chucker]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

We have to be careful what we wish for here, once sheep goes on a draw it will never come back and it will quickly creep into longer wait times until most will be lucky to draw one or two tags in a life time.
I personally would rather have the opportunity to chase 160 class Rams every year than a 180 class ram once in my life.

X2...part of me sheep hunting is the opportunity every year to get out and enjoy the back countryand hunt sheep..and to have my kids hunt with me...it goes on draw we're all screwed. There's no reason to be back there.and if it goes on draw everyone in alberta will be a sheep hunter . You're wait time for a tag will be crazy.just like the antelope and the moose...

[bighornram]

How about dedicating one or some wmu's as backpack hunts only, that would help i think. Why is this not already in place? There is archery only sheep wmu and no ATV wmus. Just throwing it out there.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by bighornram

How about dedicating one or some wmu's as backpack hunts only, that would help i think. Why is this not already in place? There is archery only sheep wmu and no ATV wmus. Just throwing it out there.

so no horses?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Agreed thinhorn and Bighorn management are much differnt, I saw a lot of full curl Dall sheep when I hunted them in Alaska. Only have seen 3 full curl rams hunting big horn and thy were young with lamb tips.

The biggest problem I see with management by the way of horn length is it doesn't nessesarily account for age structure. Also the population of sheep isn't in danger its just horn size that seems to have prompted this proposed change. If the government wants to grow bigger horns they need to start several burns and increase habitat to cadomine caliber. Also kill more cougars and wolves like what was already suggested. They will have monster rams running everywhere.

Also not killing 4/5 will do nothing for the population. Every year I see 60-80 almost legal rams. You would expect to see a similar number the next year that are just legal but you don't. There might be half of them left the next season and most of them broomed to sub legal. I really think there should be a quota on some of these 1/2 curl rams that don't make it regardless, like was suggested a limited "any ram" draw would be great in addition to the current season we have.

Other incentives to shoot older rams can also be put on the table like if you shoota 10+yr old ram maybe you don't have to sit out the next season. There is a lot of things that can be done to encourage taking the "right" age class of ram without further restricting hunting opportunities. Most of the people who support the full curl requirement are the first ones to bitch there is not enough resident opportunity, want even less opportunity support a full curl reg!

End of rant.

Yup exactly. Ever wonder why that is? A good number of those almost legals die after the rut.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by lead chucker

X2...part of me sheep hunting is the opportunity every year to get out and enjoy the back countryand hunt sheep..and to have my kids hunt with me...it goes on draw we're all screwed. There's no reason to be back there.and if it goes on draw everyone in alberta will be a sheep hunter . You're wait time for a tag will be crazy.just like the antelope and the moose...

This is not what this thread is about but I do strongly agree with your opinion. We will all be in trouble if it goes on draw. However the proposed plan isn't the end of the world but for some reason srd feels they need to make a change.

[fast_pass88]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

so no horses?

Ya, no horses? I'm not sure I understand how using a horse is an advantage over back packing?

However, it some more zones were made into wilderness parks, such as the willmore and white goat, I would think that might help reduce the pressure. Although it's a good idea, I'm not sure that it really a dresses the problem were facing

[top predator]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Agreed thinhorn and Bighorn management are much differnt, I saw a lot of full curl Dall sheep when I hunted them in Alaska. Only have seen 3 full curl rams hunting big horn and thy were young with lamb tips.

The biggest problem I see with management by the way of horn length is it doesn't nessesarily account for age structure. Also the population of sheep isn't in danger its just horn size that seems to have prompted this proposed change. If the government wants to grow bigger horns they need to start several burns and increase habitat to cadomine caliber. Also kill more cougars and wolves like what was already suggested. They will have monster rams running everywhere.

Also not killing 4/5 will do nothing for the population. Every year I see 60-80 almost legal rams. You would expect to see a similar number the next year that are just legal but you don't. There might be half of them left the next season and most of them broomed to sub legal. I really think there should be a quota on some of these 1/2 curl rams that don't make it regardless, like was suggested a limited "any ram" draw would be great in addition to the current season we have.

Other incentives to shoot older rams can also be put on the table like if you shoota 10+yr old ram maybe you don't have to sit out the next season. There is a lot of things that can be done to encourage taking the "right" age class of ram without further restricting hunting opportunities. Most of the people who support the full curl requirement are the first ones to bitch there is not enough resident opportunity, want even less opportunity support a full curl reg!

End of rant.

Some good things here for certain. I also see piles of almost legal rams every year, come next year they are almost all gone or broomed off. Habitat rehab, restrict access, and cut subsistence hunting. Its sad but most the areas I hunt you hardly ever see a hunter, piles of sheep, but no legal rams....hmm. I passed on the last day on two squeakers, didn't need the hassle if they weren't legal, hopefully they make the winter.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

Yup exactly. Ever wonder why that is? A good number of those almost legals die after the rut.

Agreed.

Which is big part of the reason a full curl regulation for Alberta bighorn rams is pointless and even wasteful. If the vast majority of rams die (from non hunting mortality) before ever becoming full curl, there is no reason to not allow them to be hunted based on compensatory mortality realities... which is considered within the 4/5 rule.


So Bdub,

You have now stated that habitat and predation factors are likely the most influential in terms of positively impacting ram populations. And you acknowledge that most rams die before becoming full curl....

Do you still think that instituting a full curl regulation will solve your inferred problem?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Agreed.

Which is big part of the reason a full curl regulation for Alberta bighorn rams is pointless and even wasteful. If the vast majority of rams die (from non hunting mortality) before ever becoming full curl, there is no reason to not allow them to be hunted based on compensatory mortality realities... which is considered within the 4/5 rule.


So Bdub,

You have now stated that habitat and predation factors are likely the most influential in terms of positively impacting ram populations. And you acknowledge that most rams die before becoming full curl....

Do you still think that instituting a full curl regulation will solve your inferred problem?

I will try and make it as clear as possible to you and anyone else who will listen about what the research of folks like Giest suggests is happening to our sheep herd due to the over harvest of class 3 Rams. In normal rutting behaviour much of the breeding is done by large dominant class 4 Rams. When no or few mature Rams are present younger Rams spend an extraordinary amount of energy chasing ewes like young teenagers. There mortality rate goes way up and lots die post rut or, if they survive, horn growth is below optimal.

When we have normal rutting behaviour we have a few large dominant Rams doing much of the breeding. The younger class 3 Rams reduce their expenditure of energy at a crucial time and the survival rates go way up as well as horn growth. You have much better recruitment of those younger Rams into class 4 rams.

On top of this you have better reproduction and survival of the ewes due to less harassment by younger Rams.

If you look at my early post I stated that I support the full curl with the option to kill older broomed but short Rams.

I also stated that importance of habitat and predator control many times. I believe in Giests research. He and others were way ahead of their time in the study of sheep behaviour and evolution. You should check it out sometime and open your mind up to what he is saying. We could have much better sheep hunting in the future I believe if we follow the path that his research leads us down.

[mad mountain mike]

Bdub, I hope you're right and I don't think anybody doubts Geist's research but rather have a healthy distrust of the current regime at ESRD. I guess time will tell what path we're on.
I wish they'd remove the word trophy from sheep hunting because the real prize is sitting on a rock in the bottom of a drainage somewhere miles away from cell service enjoying fresh cut steaks off a hard earned ram over an open fire with a good hunting partner.

[bdub]

Amen to that MM. I haven't killed a ram in a long time and Ive got more sheep hunting years behind me than in front. I just want what is best for our sheep herds and the future of sheep hunting. I've helped a few others get theirs in the years since I killed my last, and I think I enjoy the thrill I see in their eyes, not just in the act of taking a ram but in the whole experience. The long packs, the tough climbs, seeing Grizzlies, wolverines, goats, stuff that most folks don't get to see. Living in a tent in some basin and having a feed of sheep meat like in your photo. That's what it's all about. Thanks for the pic.

[Justahunter]

What I do not get tho is that we know that there is a lot of Rams that are old and mature that are left because they are broomed to less then 4/5 . So putting in a full curl rule only makes the problem worse by removing more lamb tip rams plus it takes hunting opportunity away. . I say this.explicitly . If ESRD would do the job correctly they would reduce cougar #`s and improve habitat and then and only then if the problem continues reduce hunting pressure. We know that 180 legally taken rams per year is not where the problem originates. Look at the evidence and you see the full curl rule will do nothing to improve sheep #`s if it is predation and habitat that is the problem. If ESRD would simply follow the integrated resource plan that they created themselves I think things would be fine. In it they clearly state that hunters and trappers would not be able to adequately control predator #`s and that the dept would need to take an active role. They just need to follow their own rulebook to make this work

[bdub]

How many is lots. How many broomed Rams under 4/5 curl do you see as a percentage of the ram population? I don't see that many where I'm at. I don't even see many under 4/5 broomed Rams when I'm wandering around at Cadomin where there are hundreds of Rams. I'm sure there are some broomed Rams in 400 that don't make full curl.

[bdub]

How many is lots. How many broomed Rams under 4/5 curl do you see as a percentage of the ram population? I don't see that many where I'm at. I don't even see many under 4/5 broomed Rams when I'm wandering around at Cadomin where there are hundreds of Rams. I'm sure there are some broomed Rams in 400 that don't make full curl

[Justahunter]

Hey now, what I see in writing on this forum is there seems to be a consistent complaint that there are 8.5 - 13.5 yr rams being left on the mountain and lamb tips at 6.5 yrs harvested because of the 4/5 rule . Going to a full curl only makes it worse. But you want to forget the other part of the equation about ESRD doing their job. That is the real issue in other areas as well not just sheep.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

Hey now, what I see in writing on this forum is there seems to be a consistent complaint that there are 8.5 - 13.5 yr rams being left on the mountain and lamb tips at 6.5 yrs harvested because of the 4/5 rule . Going to a full curl only makes it worse. But you want to forget the other part of the equation about ESRD doing their job. That is the real issue in other areas as well not just sheep.

I don't know how ESRD operates. I returned to this province just a few years ago after being gone for quite a while so I have no clue. Seems like not to many people are that happy with them or trusting of their decisions. I've stated my opinion on habitat and predators often. As for lots of 8.5 -13.5 year old Rams under 4/5 being left I don't believe that.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

Bdub, I hope you're right and I don't think anybody doubts Geist's research but rather have a healthy distrust of the current regime at ESRD. I guess time will tell what path we're on.
I wish they'd remove the word trophy from sheep hunting because the real prize is sitting on a rock in the bottom of a drainage somewhere miles away from cell service enjoying fresh cut steaks off a hard earned ram over an open fire with a good hunting partner.

That's a great pic thanks for sharing. Sheep hunting is unlike mule deer or moose hunting which I do lots of, is that you don't sheep hunt to shoot a sheep however we sheep hunt to see over the next mountain. So any restriction on that reason to get out in the mountains is not something to be takin lightly. I don't think the full curl change is the end of the world but what I am worried about is what is after that. If you give an inch they will take a mile, and that is my concern.

[mad mountain mike]

^^^^^Exactly my concern as well. We went from 3/4 to 4/5 now to full curl. What's next, a draw then extreme wait times to the point resident hunters are sitting on the side lines while wealthy foreigners with outfitters are the primary sheep hunters?

[Justahunter]

Mike, that is exactly what SRD wants. You to be clashing with the outfitter, the landowner vs the city guy, the bow hunter vs the rifle, the long shot vs the closeup , What I am saying is that we should all pull together ,make them DO their job, and we would find out there is LOTS (BDUB) of everything for everybody.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

I don't know how ESRD operates. I returned to this province just a few years ago after being gone for quite a while so I have no clue. Seems like not to many people are that happy with them or trusting of their decisions. I've stated my opinion on habitat and predators often. As for lots of 8.5 -13.5 year old Rams under 4/5 being left I don't believe that.

I have seen several myself, an 11.5 yr old I passed on due to him being too close to call, was taken by someone last week of season, not sure if it ended up being legal, too close for my comfort. I usually see at least 1 maybe 2 old rams broomed sub legal a year. Also have trail cam pics of a few old rams broomed to just past half curl on trail cam from a differnt area. There are several rams like this out there, not around every corner by any means but hunt enough days in the seson and you will see them.

[Young Eldon]

It's true that we went from 3/4 to 4/5 now to full curl. That was done to avoid going on a draw and it has worked for about 40 years!
It is also true that a draw system will cut opportunities drastically befor the ram horn sizes show much response. Allowing any ram to be taken on a draw would require very, very few permits/WMU/hunt - like about 5-10 permits in many WMUs.

Loss of sheep habitat is not near as severe as the loss of habitat by some other species.

The number of undersized rams dying of old age is also much lower than some hunters would like us to think. I doubt it would be more than 5 percent of the legal 4/5 rams out there. Guys claiming it is extreme should be telling us what percent it was and how many legal rams they actually saw to base the percentage on. Remembering that we are talking both horns on a ram since only one side has to be legal.

Predation by wolves and cougars may well be the biggest problem that needs improvement but neither of these species can be managed without some extreme methods that most Albertans will oppose! Getting trappers to work harder on these species is likely the best way to keep them at lower densities. Of course, there will be critics and detractors of every stripe to oppose whatever is proposed!

[243 wild cat]

Originally Posted by lead chucker

X2...part of me sheep hunting is the opportunity every year to get out and enjoy the back countryand hunt sheep..and to have my kids hunt with me...it goes on draw we're all screwed. There's no reason to be back there.and if it goes on draw everyone in alberta will be a sheep hunter . You're wait time for a tag will be crazy.just like the antelope and the moose...

X2 I have been hunting sheep for more then 23 years with some success of my own one great Ram down thats right one. I have passed up some good legal Rams over them years too Rams that just did not meet my standards of the trophy Ram that i already have. I will say i did not get out there every year but and when i did it was a big DAM! commitment i wasn't just your weekend warrior. It was my time, My Partners time , Condition my Horses, Feed, Money, Work, Family, and a lot more!. As of now i try to spend every year sheep hunting my opportunity is closeing with age and i would like to get my kids out there to have the adventures that i have seen SHEEP HUNTING!. My commitment is 11 days in September and 9 days in October. Thats just hopeing i can get out for 20 days. So i would say a wait time for a tag like the wait time i did for a antelope 9 YEARS!! for a 7 day hunt is just Bull ****!. The crazy thing is a sheep tag would be 15 or more with the flood of hunters that would put in just for a tag this would put most of us that are in that 30 to 50 years of age haveing a chance to get out there and hunt for 20 days of the season to take a Ram 1 or 2 times out of his or hers life time F&W and are Government need to and STOP transplanting our sheep out of are province to the US and start concentrating on are areas that should have sheep MANAGEMENT!. Its been real hard to support the Wild Sheep Foundation when all i see is that my money and yours is helping the US when we are in this dilemma were all talking and argueing about. Its about STANDARDS is it not we seem to have a lack of sheep or quality Rams so should we be removing are sheep from our own backyard

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Young Eldon

It's true that we went from 3/4 to 4/5 now to full curl. That was done to avoid going on a draw and it has worked for about 40 years!
It is also true that a draw system will cut opportunities drastically befor the ram horn sizes show much response. Allowing any ram to be taken on a draw would require very, very few permits/WMU/hunt - like about 5-10 permits in many WMUs.

Loss of sheep habitat is not near as severe as the loss of habitat by some other species.

The number of undersized rams dying of old age is also much lower than some hunters would like us to think. I doubt it would be more than 5 percent of the legal 4/5 rams out there. Guys claiming it is extreme should be telling us what percent it was and how many legal rams they actually saw to base the percentage on. Remembering that we are talking both horns on a ram since only one side has to be legal.

Predation by wolves and cougars may well be the biggest problem That needs improvement but neither of these species can be managed without some extreme methods that most Albertans will oppose! Getting trappers to work harder on these species is likely the best way to keep them at lower densities. Of course, there will be critics and detractors of every stripe to oppose whatever is proposed!

So what is the concern and supporting evidence that esrd has already decided on a proposed course of action? Isn't it strange that esrd would know what changes they want to make before the data analysis is finished?

Without a complement of recent sheep surveys, how can esrd establish population numbers?

What are ram natural mortality/ age tables revealing?

I'll suggest that forest encroachment is much more significant of an issue than you are giving it credit for.

If predators are the main culprit in a so far unidentified concern, do you agree that hunters should just suck it up for the sake of political expediency?

Do you think that the 4/5 rule is causing harm to the health of the population?
If no, Do you believe that continuing to hunt under the 4/5 rule while working on habitat and predator issues will cause a population health concern?




ESRD seems adamant that reducing the annual ram harvest by 50-75 animals from a population of over 6000 (not including another 5000 national park sheep) is the answer to solving the concern. Is ESRD really that confident in their data analysis to be able to determine what to do about 1% of the sheep population? Wouldn't unregulated treaty harvest alone put a wrench into any potential assertion that these changes would do a dam thing?

I have seen absolutely nothing from ESRD to give me any confidence that they can show a valid concern, or be able to make any impact on this unidentified concern simply by putting licenced hunters on a full curl regulation.

[HuntingAlberta]

Walking Buffalo x 2.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

So what is the concern and supporting evidence that esrd has already decided on a proposed course of action? Isn't it strange that esrd would know what changes they want to make before the data analysis is finished?






n.

I notice you seem to want absolute proof, scientific evidence, data analysis before making a change to a regulation, and yet a couple years ago you were calling for the extermination of a species (albeit feral) based on feelings and anecdotal evidence. Double standard?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I notice you seem to want absolute proof, scientific evidence, data analysis before making a change to a regulation, and yet a couple years ago you were calling for the extermination of a species (albeit feral) based on feelings and anecdotal evidence. Double standard?

I don't expect Absolute proof.

I do expect some proof.

So far ESRD has offered ZERO proof of anything. They won't even state the concern.

This is unacceptable.



I'll call your bluff posturing..... prove your claims of my position on feral horses.
We both know you are way off the mark.

[Hagar]

WB is right we need to know what the concerns are before we can make any choice on what needs to be done. Habitat and predation are very big concerns,If we look at Cadomin we can see how important that is.With great habitat and a lack of predators the survival rate of sheep is greatly increased as well as horn size. Another good idea that has been stated is the idea of increased wait times for harvesting young rams over older ones and having dedicated offices for the measuring and registering ,by trained and experienced CO's,of harvested rams. But before there are any changes we need to hear what are the concerns,we need disclosure from SRD first!

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by Hagar

WB is right we need to know what the concerns are before we can make any choice on what needs to be done. Habitat and predation are very big concerns,If we look at Cadomin we can see how important that is.With great habitat and a lack of predators the survival rate of sheep is greatly increased as well as horn size. Another good idea that has been stated is the idea of increased wait times for harvesting young rams over older ones and having dedicated offices for the measuring and registering ,by trained and experienced CO's,of harvested rams. But before there are any changes we need to hear what are the concerns,we need disclosure from SRD first!

I agree we need some good concrete evidence before changes are made. However I think some of the data collected over the years of rams harvested has to be worth some sort of information. if we start at 0 information how many years will it take before we have concrete info? 5, 10, 20 as we all know wildlife takes years to change. By then who knows what sheep populations will be or the population of rams harvested and people perusing those rams. Its not like we know nothing about our sheep now.

I like the idea of longer wait times if you harvest a younger ram, but I still think that won't reduce harvested sheep like they want. I have never taken a sheep but would kill any legal ram I found. I know lots of people like this and with the population growing of people hunting sheep there will always be the "new" guy that will kill any legal ram for their first. I don't know how many seasoned sheep hunters out there looking for Mr. "BIG" help new guys get their first ram under their belt but I know it happens so I really don't see a decrease in harvested rams with longer wait times between kills. but I do like the fact that whether your a hard core sheep hunter or a weekend warrior you can go buy a tag and enjoy the mountains.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I don't expect Absolute proof.

I do expect some proof.

So far ESRD has offered ZERO proof of anything. They won't even state the concern.

This is unacceptable.



I'll call your bluff posturing..... prove your claims of my position on feral horses.
We both know you are way off the mark.

Exactly !

Also It's interesting, that Esrd in the last 2 years, has opted to measure annuli distances. If you back date the annuli growth, you can also get a good idea, on winter conditions and the growth on easy winters vs harsh ones...At least I noticed it on the last few rams I've held.