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  #31  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:52 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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What many people overlook, is that reclassifying a firearm can greatly devalue a firearm, which is taking money out of the pockets of firearms owners. Once a firearm is reclassified to prohibited, it greatly reduces the number of potential buyers, so the demand falls, and the value falls with it. The owners paid their hard earned money to purchase their firearms, and the government even collected sales tax for the sale, but now the owner will be able to recover less of his investment should he decide to sell the firearms, or should he die and his estate inherit the firearms. The government has effectively taken money out of some firearms owners pockets, every time they prohibit a firearm.
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  #32  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
What many people overlook, is that reclassifying a firearm can greatly devalue a firearm, which is taking money out of the pockets of firearms owners. Once a firearm is reclassified to prohibited, it greatly reduces the number of potential buyers, so the demand falls, and the value falls with it. The owners paid their hard earned money to purchase their firearms, and the government even collected sales tax for the sale, but now the owner will be able to recover less of his investment should he decide to sell the firearms, or should he die and his estate inherit the firearms. The government has effectively taken money out of some firearms owners pockets, every time they prohibit a firearm.

Yep, 858's are selling hot cakes over on CGN! Little harder to move a Classic Green at value when they are asking $2500-3000.
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  #33  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:24 AM
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There are extremely scary parts of this bill that few here or on CGN are talking about.

There are several references to the privacy act, the freedom of information act and the end of the long gun registry act.

In a nut shell, RCMP again have access to the existing gun registry as does the Province of Quebec. They can at will and without warrant access this private information and in theory hold you responsible for a firearm you had registered years ago. At best it is a starting data base for the new registry.

I know, I know, you are just going to say you sold it when the RCMP knock on the door and explain how a gun you once had was used in a crime. However, if they are convinced you sold it to a criminal or mentally deranged person your license may be suspended pending further investigation. IT IS CLEARLY STATED THAT CONFISCATED FIREARMS NOW IMMEDIATELY BECOME PROPERTY OF THE CROWN so you better have your lawyer ready and your cheque book open.

Because the privacy act does not apply to many parts of this new legislation, the records kept by store owners can also be accessed without warrant. In spite of what Goodale says, there is no mention of a court order being mandatory to accessing this private information.

The RCMP have been given authorization to create law under this new legislation. We elect politicians to create law and we employ the RCMP to enforce law. Empowering the police to create law is the beginning of a police state. Empowering the police to create law, giving them immunity over the privacy act and giving them the ability to confiscate private property is the definition of Police State.

Back door registry? There is more potential for abuse of power in this legislation than the registry backers could have imagined.
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  #34  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:26 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
Yep, 858's are selling hot cakes over on CGN! Little harder to move a Classic Green at value when they are asking $2500-3000.

A friend bought a Python at what seemed like a deal that was too good to be true, until he mentioned that it was classified 12.6 prohib due to the barrel length. He told me that he buys quite a few prohib class firearms, because the prices are much lower than the same guns classified restricted.
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  #35  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:42 AM
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I survived the “registry” during which time I bought and sold both R and NR firearms. Never ran into any issues other than a bit of short lived inconvenience. Matter of fact, I even found some old timers that I had hid and forgot about. The proposed legislation is not a registry in the same sense and will surely not survive the next Conservative government.
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  #36  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:42 AM
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Yep, 858's are selling hot cakes over on CGN! Little harder to move a Classic Green at value when they are asking $2500-3000.
Can anyone explain the difference between a VZ58 and a CZ858? Or is there no difference?
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  #37  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:43 AM
Pasc43 Pasc43 is offline
 
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Good read from Ian Runkle, a firearms Lawyer:

"Minor stuff:
* It incorporates the language used in the Criminal Code for definitions. This is sensible.

* Some grammatical changes, mostly which recognize that businesses/corporations exist.

More important stuff:

* Section 5(2) of the Firearms Act is amended to remove the "within the previous 5 years" that was previously incorporated. So instead of the CFO having to consider what happened in the previous five years, they now have to consider the issue generally. The effect of this is actually fairly minimal, because the courts had said that the CFO/etc are more than entitled to consider things outside the five year range, and the CFO/etc did consider it.

* Section 12 is amended by creating a new blanket grandfathering clause that can be done by regulation. Now, this suggests that the current government may intend to prohibit more firearms in future. However, it also suggests that they may grandfather in existing owners. This is a big warning sign for gun owners going forward, and one I haven't yet seen discussed. These firearms will also be excluded from the automatic ATT provisions. However, the new category of grandfathered firearms are not necessarily barred from being issued an ATT. This creates an uneven patchwork of laws that is exactly the opposite direction our firearms laws should be going.

* They are adding a specific grandfathering clause for the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles for owners who had one before June 30th, 2018. It's not yet June 30th... anyone feeling like giving me a present?

* Automatic ATTs for prohibited firearms are being clawed back, meaning most can't be taken to ranges. Those who have 12(6) firearms (short-barreled handguns) and who have registered as collectors will also not be issued an ATT that allows range trips for those firearms.

* Non-restricted firearms can now only be transferred if you call the CFO and get a reference number for the transfer. This is going to be a serious issue for gun shows, most of which happen on weekends, when the CFO is not open. It'll be a headache generally, because the CFOs office does not keep the hours they claim to keep (I frequently find that if I call in at 1:00 PM I may get the message that tells me that they closed at 4:00 PM and to call again the next day). This will also aggravate the issues associated with the CFO practice of placing a licence "under review", which is not permitted by the legislation, and effectively means that a person with a valid licence is nevertheless barred by CFO fiat from exercising transfers. This is a practice that I have been looking for an opportunity to challenge in court, though. Oh, and violating this is grounds for revocation of your firearms licence... though it'd also be grounds for criminal charges. The net effect of that is mostly something that interests folks like me, because it provides negotiation options.

* Businesses must now keep records of transfers for 20 years, which they provide very little details on confidentiality for. The Liberal Party has been spinning this as though the only way for the police or the CFO to get access to those records is via a warrant, and thus this is not a backdoor registry. This is either a lie or a fairly major oversight, because section 102 of the Firearms Act allows for inspection of a businesses records on fairly broad basis, including copying details. So... yeah. These records will be easily available to the CFO. Additionally, a business going under has to transfer the records to the CFO. So... not quite a registry, but definitely has some substantial monitoring.

* Major omission: Refusals to issue a reference number aren't enunciated in section 74 (referring decisions of a firearms officer to a court to have them reviewed). This means that challenges to this are going to be in a legal limbo. Arguably case law (including Runkle v. Alberta) says that this new creature will be reviewable by the section 74 process, but it would have been nice to clear up this particular disaster.

* It also revokes a ton of ATTs. So, there is going to be one hell of a backlog at the CFO's office the instant this gets proclaimed.

* Restores the prohibition on the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles.

* Allows the government to retain the long gun registry data.

* Removes the ability of the government to designate something as non-restricted by Order In Council.

Okay, so, some comments:

First, it makes sense that the same principles that allow a firearm to be designated as restricted by law or prohibited by law should allow the government to make it non-restricted. The whole "we need to take these decisions out of the hands of politicians" rhetoric is insane, because of course politicians decide the laws. The LPC just wants to ensure a 'ratchet' effect, where firearms can more to being more restricted, but cannot easily move back to being less restricted. This assumes that the government will never make an error, which is silly.

Second, there are indications in this bill of planned prohibitions to come. The people saying "Oh, they're not banning anything" are wrong, because there are clear plans laid to ban things.

Third, this legislation doesn't fix any of the legislative disaster that is our firearms laws, and generally makes things worse by making it an even more uneven patchwork of conflicting rules. I have no idea how laypeople are expected to navigate this.

Fourth, the business records provisions are not as described--because these records are not excluded from the application of s. 105, the promises that a warrant will be needed to get this information are flatly false. I leave it to the reader to decide if this creates a back door registry. If the goal is to create same, this is probably the worst of all possible worlds, as it will be highly unreliable for determining anything."
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  #38  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
From the Bill,

This should eliminate any concern that the business ledger/records could be used as a shopping list for criminals.

Names and addresses are not required to be recorded

7 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 58:
Conditions — licence issued to business

58.*1 (1) A chief firearms officer who issues a licence to a business must attach the following conditions to the licence:

(a) the business must record and, for the prescribed period, keep the prescribed information that relates to the business’ possession and disposal of non-restricted firearms;

(b) the business must record and — for a period of 20 years from the day on which the business transfers a non-restricted firearm, or for a longer period that may be prescribed — keep the following information in respect of the transfer:

(i) the reference number issued by the Registrar,
(ii) the day on which the reference number was issued,
(iii) the transferee’s licence number, and
(iv) the firearm’s make, model and type and, if any, its serial number; and


(c) the business must, unless otherwise directed by a chief firearms officer, transmit any records containing the information referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) to a prescribed official if it is determined that the business will cease to be a business.
Many gunstores have been doing this for decades. Cabela's is one.(without the reference number from the cfo).
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  #39  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
* Non-restricted firearms can now only be transferred if you call the CFO and get a reference number for the transfer. This is going to be a serious issue for gun shows, most of which happen on weekends, when the CFO is not open. It'll be a headache generally, because the CFOs office does not keep the hours they claim to keep (I frequently find that if I call in at 1:00 PM I may get the message that tells me that they closed at 4:00 PM and to call again the next day). This will also aggravate the issues associated with the CFO practice of placing a licence "under review", which is not permitted by the legislation, and effectively means that a person with a valid licence is nevertheless barred by CFO fiat from exercising transfers. This is a practice that I have been looking for an opportunity to challenge in court, though. Oh, and violating this is grounds for revocation of your firearms licence... though it'd also be grounds for criminal charges. The net effect of that is mostly something that interests folks like me, because it provides negotiation options.
They way I read the legislation it says the individual doing the transfer "may request a reference number." There is nothing here saying it is mandatory. If the wording was "shall request" then it is a different story. I believe the legislation is just confirming an option that we have available at the present time. We can call the firearms center to confirm a license now if we wish.
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  #40  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasc43 View Post
Good read from Ian Runkle, a firearms Lawyer:

* Non-restricted firearms can now only be transferred if you call the CFO and get a reference number for the transfer. This is going to be a serious issue for gun shows, most of which happen on weekends, when the CFO is not open. It'll be a headache generally, because the CFOs office does not keep the hours they claim to keep (I frequently find that if I call in at 1:00 PM I may get the message that tells me that they closed at 4:00 PM and to call again the next day). This will also aggravate the issues associated with the CFO practice of placing a licence "under review", which is not permitted by the legislation, and effectively means that a person with a valid licence is nevertheless barred by CFO fiat from exercising transfers. This is a practice that I have been looking for an opportunity to challenge in court, though. Oh, and violating this is grounds for revocation of your firearms licence... though it'd also be grounds for criminal charges. The net effect of that is mostly something that interests folks like me, because it provides negotiation options.

* Major omission: Refusals to issue a reference number aren't enunciated in section 74 (referring decisions of a firearms officer to a court to have them reviewed). This means that challenges to this are going to be in a legal limbo. Arguably case law (including Runkle v. Alberta) says that this new creature will be reviewable by the section 74 process, but it would have been nice to clear up this particular disaster.
^I don't understand this part^

Why do they not go to an automated system that you call into. Dial number and at prompt punch the PAL# in (its not like they don't have a database of all PAL holders already).

The automated system could look up the number and tell the caller whether the PAL# is valid and for what class.

.....unless of course they will be looking to input this data into a "electronic spreadsheet" like format for "quality control and training purposes" and/or to create jobs?
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  #41  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:49 AM
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Or make it a web form that you can fill out, to verify the validity of a PAL? Just punch in the number and you get a YAY or NAY back.
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  #42  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:56 AM
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I can see the price of pre C-71 guns going up I think its time to buy a crate of SKS'

s
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  #43  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:33 AM
Pasc43 Pasc43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgl1948 View Post
They way I read the legislation it says the individual doing the transfer "may request a reference number." There is nothing here saying it is mandatory. If the wording was "shall request" then it is a different story. I believe the legislation is just confirming an option that we have available at the present time. We can call the firearms center to confirm a license now if we wish.
Official language,

{

Authorization to transfer non-restricted firearms
23 (1) A person may transfer a non-restricted firearm if, at the time of the transfer,
(a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess a non-restricted firearm;
(b) the Registrar has, at the transferor’s request, issued a reference number for the transfer and provided it to the transferor; and
(c) the reference number is still valid.
Information — transferee’s licence
(2) The transferee shall provide to the transferor the prescribed information that relates to the transferee’s licence, for the purpose of enabling the transferor to request that the Registrar issue a reference number for the transfer.
Reference number
(3) The Registrar shall issue a reference number if he or she is satisfied that the transferee holds and is still eligible to hold a licence authorizing them to acquire and possess a non-restricted firearm.
Period of validity
(4) A reference number is valid for the prescribed period.
Registrar not satisfied
(5) If the Registrar is not satisfied as set out in subsection (3), he or she may so inform the transferor.

}

So you most definitely will have to call the govt and record every transaction. This is insane..
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  #44  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:41 AM
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How do they come up with a reference number without referencing a firearms serial number
If I sold Mike my 30-30 I phone to check PAL then they give me a reference number what's the number for?
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  #45  
Old 03-21-2018, 12:15 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bat119 View Post
How do they come up with a reference number without referencing a firearms serial number
If I sold Mike my 30-30 I phone to check PAL then they give me a reference number what's the number for?
The “reference number” relates to the PAL (license)...not related to a firearm.
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  #46  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:21 PM
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This still doesn't make any sense why not have a web site attached to stolen gun check to type in a PAL number to check?

Check PAL and theft at the same time why talk to anybody? and why have a reference number what's the purpose of the number?
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:42 PM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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It is unbelievable, actually. There is no good reason to not have an automated online system where one could run PAL #s or serial #s.

I just don't know if it is surprising or not.
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:44 PM
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Buy buy buy before the bill passes...
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:55 PM
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just buy from people you know
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:08 PM
Pasc43 Pasc43 is offline
 
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You will have to give a serial number as well as PAL. It won't be automated because A) the system won't be instant, you will have to wait for approval of the transaction and then your reference number will be given. B) if its an automatic system there is no way for them to control or deny transactions based on whatever criteria they deem fit.

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  #51  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:56 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2018, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokinyotes View Post
Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.
When I was thinking out loud and telling people Canada is becoming a Police state, no one believed me. Said I was crazy. Ive been to police state countries and have never met cops driving around with undercover cars, with "For Sale" signs to catch speeders. Never seen cops sit on overpasses or hide cameras in utility boxes. You know who drives around in undercover cars? The KGB, ZOMO and SB.
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  #53  
Old 03-21-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gloszz View Post
When I was thinking out loud and telling people Canada is becoming a Police state, no one believed me. Said I was crazy. Ive been to police state countries and have never met cops driving around with undercover cars, with "For Sale" signs to catch speeders. Never seen cops sit on overpasses or hide cameras in utility boxes. You know who drives around in undercover cars? The KGB, ZOMO and SB.
Sorry brother, the KGB doesn't exist anymore.

Or maybe they're just all in uncover cars so we're under that impression
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  #54  
Old 03-21-2018, 06:29 PM
gloszz gloszz is offline
 
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Sorry brother, the KGB doesn't exist anymore.

Or maybe they're just all in uncover cars so we're under that impression
Well the KGB still exists in Belarus ( same name but a few modifications were made). The KGB that you may be thinking of is still in fact very alive. The FSB is the new KGB. Putin is an ex-KGB and he is in charge of Russia. You think he has forgotten his ways? I think not!
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  #55  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:15 PM
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So if you have to call for a transfer # for a non-restricted firearm, you will have to provide all firearm information correct??? So it's recorded but not a registration???? Right!!!!
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  #56  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:53 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sask Bearman View Post
So if you have to call for a transfer # for a non-restricted firearm, you will have to provide all firearm information correct??? So it's recorded but not a registration???? Right!!!!
Yes I believe this is correct. I think they are probably using invisible ink
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  #57  
Old 03-22-2018, 03:03 AM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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So, in the background checks, it would appear as the privacy act just went out the window on your medical records. Would be interesting to hear how various medically related laws may conflict with this, but, it does seem to be worded in that it overrides the works. Seems scary how they may be able to gain access to that sort of info, and where does the divulging of that info have any brakes on it. How about the storage of that info? Who else has access to it?
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  #58  
Old 03-22-2018, 05:59 AM
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It's all no more than liberal posturing for next election. They can say that they've "improved" or "strengthened" gun laws. None of it serves any other purpose. Gun people don't vote liberal anyway.
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  #59  
Old 03-22-2018, 09:16 AM
Outhouse Outhouse is offline
 
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Wow, was suppose to buy a 858 last weekend and the gent gave it to a son just before I got there, unsure how to feel now.

We knew this was coming down the pipe, liberal are liberal... Time to get our voice heard, Pal membership is on the rise all over our great country and keeps going up, local pal trainer are giving at least a monthly training now where it was every second month before. In this case more is better.
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  #60  
Old 03-22-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokinyotes View Post
Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.

There will no way to regulate private to private sales/transfers even in the future for non restricted (restricted yes). There is no history on any non restricted firearms as the previous registry was abolished and all records destroyed (supposedly). How will anyone know who owns what anyway?
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