Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-31-2021, 09:38 AM
leo's Avatar
leo leo is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sturgeon County, Ab.
Posts: 3,126
Default Mastodon/Mammoth

I didn't want to derail the Sasquatch thread, so here's another critter that was thought to be extinct 10,000 years ago. Following is an article on it.

From the pages of the encyclopedias we are apt to read that mastodons and mammoths were ancient relatives of today’s elephants which have been extinct for about 10,000 years. This has been accepted by virtually all the “experts” today and consequently is taught at all levels of education.

There are other experts, however, who suggest that these great creatures have been extinct for not more than a few hundred years. Many of these experts are historians who have read accounts of these creatures in historical records. One such historian is the popular novelist, Louis L’Amour. In his book, Jubal Sackett, Mr. L’Amour included an account of killing a mastodon close to 1700. When challenged on the point, he defended his position in the February, 1987, issue of The Western Horseman. After giving several historical records of mastodons and mammoths in North America, he writes:

The best story of the mastodon, though, is in the ethnographic records of the Smithsonian Institute. They tell about the Ponca Indians, who lived in the vicinity of Yankton, S.D., who used to make what they called The Long Hunt. . . On one of these trips, perhaps the last one and it couldn’t have been earlier than the 1600s and it very likely was in the 1700s this happened, they killed a mastodon near Niobrara, Nebraska.

They tell about it, and not only that, they knew him well enough to have a name for him – his name was pasnuta, which in Ponca means “long nose.”. . .

Not only the mastodon, they killed something else, they only describe, which had to be a giant ground sloth (supposedly extinct at the time).

If scientists would consult historians, they may be surprised that many creatures they believe are “prehistoric” may really have existed in the known past. We should not discount valid written documents merely because they tend not to agree with our preconceived ideas. Historians, which have often been disregarded by “scientists,” certainly have a great deal to offer.

by Dave Nutting
__________________
Proper placement and Deep penetration are what’s important. Just like they taught in Sex Ed!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-31-2021, 09:57 AM
urban rednek's Avatar
urban rednek urban rednek is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,377
Wink But...what if 97% of the scientists agree?

Those stories are anecdotal, there's no grant money available to study them.
Besides, they must have experienced it differently.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.” - Thomas Sowell

“We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did.”- Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-31-2021, 10:03 AM
leo's Avatar
leo leo is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sturgeon County, Ab.
Posts: 3,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by urban rednek View Post
Those stories are anecdotal, there's no grant money available to study them.
Besides, they must have experienced it differently.
You hit the nail on the head. Science is all about money. If there are no grants available, then it's just easier to stick to the original theory, and discredit the source.
__________________
Proper placement and Deep penetration are what’s important. Just like they taught in Sex Ed!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-31-2021, 10:19 AM
Buckhead Buckhead is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 1,939
Default

Apparently, mammoths were still living on Wrangel island up to around 4,000 years ago so there is not an exact consensus on when they actually went extinct.

Charles Darwin reported finding a partial decomposing hide of a giant ground sloth along the coast of South America as late as the 1830's. He identified a lot of much older remains as well.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-31-2021, 10:19 AM
Hoopi Hoopi is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 305
Default Evidence they may have lived up to 3000 years ago

Hi: In this episode of PBS Eons they say there is evidence the Wooly Mammoths roamed on Wrangell Island about 3000 years ago....at the same time that Eqypt was building pyramids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0Ifw8TJVw

Hoopi
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-31-2021, 10:42 AM
Buckhead Buckhead is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 1,939
Default

There also seems to be considerable evidence that giant Monitor lizards lived during the same period as human expansion.

Could this be where the tales and myths of Dragons comes from?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-31-2021, 10:51 AM
fishtank fishtank is offline
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: edmonton
Posts: 3,835
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo View Post
You hit the nail on the head. Science is all about money. If there are no grants available, then it's just easier to stick to the original theory, and discredit the source.
Should just pool all that grant money into a time machine .... they will have all the answers . .. in the mean time they can just ask google , Siri , Alexa .
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-31-2021, 11:43 AM
Trochu's Avatar
Trochu Trochu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo View Post
We should not discount valid written documents merely because they tend not to agree with our preconceived ideas.
Don't visit the Covid thread!!!!

I don't necessarily take to heart quite a bit of what those experts say. Too much:
"We know this fossil is 15,000 years old".
"How do you know that"?
"Because it was found in this rock layer which is 15,000 years old".
"Oh, well, how do you know the rock is 15,000 years old"?
"Because the fossil's we found in it are 15,000 years old".

Then there is the whole C-14 dating method that was determined to be questionable at best, which was used to date alot of these mammals in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-31-2021, 12:08 PM
Lefty Lefty is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 938
Default

I agree with you that they have walked the planet in the not too distant past. Too much out there of accounts of them to say otherwise. There was no internet then and people had no idea other than reporting what they saw, and no where are there accounts of those who wrote some of this was off their rocker on what they had seen from what I have run across. Not an expert on this but just from what reading I have, and stories heard passed down from earlier generations to family.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2021, 12:20 PM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,939
Default

Considering Louis L’Amour's parents took him out of school at age 15, though a well known novelist I do not consider him an expert historian...not by any stretch of the imagination.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-31-2021, 12:58 PM
Sundancefisher's Avatar
Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary Perchdance
Posts: 18,776
Default

Someday one has to imagine they will clone a wholly mammoth from DNA derived from one of the frozen specimens.
__________________
It is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself. Charles Darwin
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-31-2021, 01:09 PM
bat119's Avatar
bat119 bat119 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,343
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Someday one has to imagine they will clone a wholly mammoth from DNA derived from one of the frozen specimens.
Might happen soon

https://www.dw.com/en/japanese-scien...oth/a-48063060
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-31-2021, 01:22 PM
calgarychef calgarychef is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Someday one has to imagine they will clone a wholly mammoth from DNA derived from one of the frozen specimens.
I hope it’s soon, I’d love to hunt one with the longbow...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-31-2021, 01:29 PM
leo's Avatar
leo leo is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sturgeon County, Ab.
Posts: 3,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
Considering Louis L’Amour's parents took him out of school at age 15, though a well known novelist I do not consider him an expert historian...not by any stretch of the imagination.
Expert or not, he based his story on data from the Smithsonian as he related.
__________________
Proper placement and Deep penetration are what’s important. Just like they taught in Sex Ed!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-31-2021, 02:02 PM
Stinky Buffalo's Avatar
Stinky Buffalo Stinky Buffalo is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: A bit North o' Center...
Posts: 11,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
I hope it’s soon, I’d love to hunt one with the longbow...
Meh, I wouldn't bet on it... The first reintroduction would most likely be in Banff.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-31-2021, 02:09 PM
NCC NCC is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Leslieville
Posts: 2,483
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo View Post
You hit the nail on the head. Science is all about money. If there are no grants available, then it's just easier to stick to the original theory, and discredit the source.
And if the science shows that Indigenous Americans hunted mastodons, woolly mammoths and dozens of other species into extinction, no media outlet is willing to publish the data.
__________________
We talk so much about leaving a better planet to our kids, that we forget to leave better kids to our planet.

Gerry Burnie
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-31-2021, 02:18 PM
Buckhead Buckhead is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 1,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC View Post
And if the science shows that Indigenous Americans hunted mastodons, woolly mammoths and dozens of other species into extinction, no media outlet is willing to publish the data.
There are a lot of frozen buried mammoths, horses and other animals discovered in the northern hemisphere (Siberia, Canadian Arctic), so the overhunting theory doesn't seem plausible.

Current theories seem to point to some sort of global cataclysm, such as large comet, meteor strike(s) or maybe even earth crust slippage.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-31-2021, 05:12 PM
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhead View Post
There also seems to be considerable evidence that giant Monitor lizards lived during the same period as human expansion.

Could this be where the tales and myths of Dragons comes from?
Komodo dragons are still out there and dine on humans, given half a chance.

Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-31-2021, 05:30 PM
Head Lice's Avatar
Head Lice Head Lice is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: BC
Posts: 205
Default

A neighbor has a gold mine in the Yukon. He has a tusk that's 9 ft. long. They tried to pull a bigger one from the muck but broke it. This tusk had been 11 ft. long.
He said that they find 'islands' and explained that that's exactly what they were during the Ice Age. Higher ground with ice all around them. He explained that the many animal bones etc. that they find on these 'islands' are smaller in the most recent strata layer, and as the gene pool was isolated, the stranded species became smaller.
When they would find one of these 'islands' they would take what they wanted and cover it over again so the authorities wouldn't come in and stop their gold operation.
He had a prehistoric bison skull complete with the horn sheaths, and most of the hide. Things buried in the mud were well preserved. The bison skull was huge.
He gave me some nice oxidized nuggets.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-31-2021, 05:30 PM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo View Post
Expert or not, he based his story on data from the Smithsonian as he related.
Sorry, still doesn’t hold. The Smithsonian is relating ethnographic records from the Pocna Indians...ethnographic means ‘as related by individuals’, that’s all. So basically all the Smithsonian has done is relate and record what at best would be considered folklore.
If it had really happened it is more or less impossible that this one mammoth had appeared out of thin air...and if there were more of them there would be remains to be found.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:17 PM
Dynamic Dynamic is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 483
Default

Just a simple google search and this Dave Nutting fellow seems to be big in creationism. So that’s a bad start already. The thought that mammoths pretty much went extinct 10000 years ago except for that isolated population in Siberia is a HUGE problem with his world view. Obviously he is probably going to be searching for anything to the contrary.

I think it would be cool as beans if it was true but there is not a shred of evidence to even explore the possibility. I’m sure someone who has specialized in the field of North American megafauna would be able to come up with a dozen reasons pretty quickly why mammoths walking in the present day USA a few hundred years ago has no merit.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:32 PM
EZM's Avatar
EZM EZM is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,851
Default

How long ago something lived, is absolutely EASY to determine with C14 and/or accelerator mass spectrometry.

There should be ZERO discussion here. Bring in the sample and run it.

Facts and Evidence tell the REAL story here.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:33 PM
EZM's Avatar
EZM EZM is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,851
Default

Double Post ............ the Russian Hackers are at it again.......
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-31-2021, 06:46 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,496
Default

I want to know that Jack O'Connor smoked one with his Model 70 .270 and unless that happens I'm going with science.
__________________
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by the speed of light squared... ...then you energy.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-31-2021, 08:05 PM
Sundancefisher's Avatar
Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary Perchdance
Posts: 18,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
Just a simple google search and this Dave Nutting fellow seems to be big in creationism. So that’s a bad start already. The thought that mammoths pretty much went extinct 10000 years ago except for that isolated population in Siberia is a HUGE problem with his world view. Obviously he is probably going to be searching for anything to the contrary.

I think it would be cool as beans if it was true but there is not a shred of evidence to even explore the possibility. I’m sure someone who has specialized in the field of North American megafauna would be able to come up with a dozen reasons pretty quickly why mammoths walking in the present day USA a few hundred years ago has no merit.
Ahh. The old the world is only 5000 years old so geological strata is not a measure of age.
__________________
It is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself. Charles Darwin
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-31-2021, 08:17 PM
bat119's Avatar
bat119 bat119 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,343
Default What really happened to the mammoths

__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-31-2021, 09:00 PM
pikeman06 pikeman06 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,615
Default

10000 years in what is now the arctic/ Siberia etc is my guess. I'm in the gold racket and the layers up that way are pretty fresh relatively speaking. Science is science but its just an educated guess when it goes back thousands of years. I've seen fossils and I've seen tusks etc and they haven't turned to rock they look very fresh and I believe the Siberians find the tusks and still sell privately to ivory carvers. Ivory carvers and stone carvers are 2 entirely different groups. I'm just speaking like a common man here, trust me I know the science and what they claim. But if you dig up a tusk its not millions of years old. Its like its been cut off and froze for awhile not turned into stone.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-31-2021, 11:31 PM
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeman06 View Post
10000 years in what is now the arctic/ Siberia etc is my guess. I'm in the gold racket and the layers up that way are pretty fresh relatively speaking. Science is science but its just an educated guess when it goes back thousands of years. I've seen fossils and I've seen tusks etc and they haven't turned to rock they look very fresh and I believe the Siberians find the tusks and still sell privately to ivory carvers. Ivory carvers and stone carvers are 2 entirely different groups. I'm just speaking like a common man here, trust me I know the science and what they claim. But if you dig up a tusk its not millions of years old. Its like its been cut off and froze for awhile not turned into stone.
The leg of an extinct Yukon horse of about the same vintage or older. A lot of this stuff turns up in Placer mining operations.





Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969

Last edited by Grizzly Adams; 03-31-2021 at 11:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-01-2021, 06:13 AM
Reeves1's Avatar
Reeves1 Reeves1 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Westlock
Posts: 5,529
Default

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/...the-dead-61686
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-01-2021, 11:00 AM
leo's Avatar
leo leo is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sturgeon County, Ab.
Posts: 3,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
Just a simple google search and this Dave Nutting fellow seems to be big in creationism. So that’s a bad start already. The thought that mammoths pretty much went extinct 10000 years ago except for that isolated population in Siberia is a HUGE problem with his world view. Obviously he is probably going to be searching for anything to the contrary.

I think it would be cool as beans if it was true but there is not a shred of evidence to even explore the possibility. I’m sure someone who has specialized in the field of North American megafauna would be able to come up with a dozen reasons pretty quickly why mammoths walking in the present day USA a few hundred years ago has no merit.
I have no religious beleifs, nor scientific knowledge of the subject. Nor do I have any ulterior motive to post this. See remainder of my comments below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
How long ago something lived, is absolutely EASY to determine with C14 and/or accelerator mass spectrometry.

There should be ZERO discussion here. Bring in the sample and run it.

Facts and Evidence tell the REAL story here.
Agree to a point. Fact and data is what rules in the scientific world. But, here's something to ponder. Lets say for example that a small population of these animals did walk the earth 400 years ago. North America, except the Eastern sea board, was virtually uncharted and unknown. Any of these animals would've met their demise through natural causes, or predation/hunting. Any remains would be totally gone after a year or two in the natural environment. All science based knowledge is based upon samples and data that were entombed in ice, permafrost, or in tar pits. I have no doubt these are 10,000 years old. There would be no recent evidence they existed later than that, other than stories and tales told through generations. All I'm saying is, there is a very good chance that they did exist in very small remote areas. I can't discount it, nor can I corroberate it. I wasn't there.
__________________
Proper placement and Deep penetration are what’s important. Just like they taught in Sex Ed!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.