Why Gerrrman Cars Are a Bad Idea

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by 270person

Wow. 4 models that aren't crap? 4 more than I would have guessed.

I'll hold to my fit and finish opinion tks. 95% of domestics make multiple visits back to the dealership they came from. Squeaks, windnoise, one wiper that works, etc.

And yes...those Lexus, Acura, are sure boxy, no style appliances huh? Nissan and Infinity, even though I wouldn't own one, have likely led all automakers in styling for many years.

When a domestic gets rated #1 multiple years in a row we'll talk, AND let us know when you purchase one of the vehicles you mentioned. Lincoln...lol.

Four is more than none, and "etc." means the list continues I just didn't list them all... No. 1 on what list? And whats the facination with No. 1, if its not No. 1 it's not worth buying? On J.D. Powers 2019 US Vehicle Dependability Study, Buick has been top 5 for the last three years. Acura, one of "..the best vehicles on the road.." is listed as 27th, 21st, and 23rd.... Not that you're going to let facts get in the way of your opinions formed on that Lincoln you drove in the early '90's though. You remind me of my FIL, don't like Mazda cause he drove an unreliable 323 in the late '80s. All Mazdas to this day are unreliable pieces of junk because of it.

Nissan leading styling, are you joking, you gotta be joking, I sure hope your joking... GT-R essentially remains unchanged since 2007, the 370Z essentially remains unchanged since 2012, apparently you haven't seen the refreshed Titan, Frontier essentially unchanged since 2004, Pathfinder essentially unchanged since 2012, etc, etc. Who are these guys leading?

[EZM]

I've owned a fair few vehicles over the years, and a fair bit of German ones including a few BMW's and Audi's and the fit, finish, handling and reliability of these vehicles is the superior to any domestic by a long shot. Not even comparable. In fairness I have not driven the new Cadillac CTS? (the sport sedan) so I can't compare that offering - but for smooth power, sharp and crisp handling and rock solid brakes ..... they are spectacular.

Obviously the Lexus and Acura offering are the fit an finished versions of the already reliable and outstanding Toyota and Honda products - so I'd expect them to be very good as well, and superior to domestic.

In terms of fixing them, and the cost, allot of boils down to the dealership - I found prices over the years for any repairs to be slightly higher, but I certainly wasn't repairing them nearly as often as the domestics.

I also really enjoy driving a tight, responsive and well put together engineered vehicle.

Anyways - That's been my experience - take it for what it's worth.

[58thecat]

Little VW diesels still tickin' no a few people who run these cars....fill and go,with no issues now if your into sos,ethics and fixin up every little ding etc you could go broke as with all makes.

[Savage Bacon]

I'd gladly fix it for the $800. There wouldn't be any plastic welding required on that job. Shrink the repair area, plastic repair, prime, prep for spot paint, paint, lifetime warranty. You'd end up with a repair that would outlive the already beat up and chipped bumper.

Or option 2. $300 wamjam. You might notice the repair if you knew what you were looking for. But most people would never see it.

These days more and more panels are getting replaced instead of repaired. It's too bad that panel alignment isn't an art that lots of repairers have mastered. Lots of bad work out there. But most people don't notice.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Savage Bacon

I'd gladly fix it for the $800. There wouldn't be any plastic welding required on that job. Shrink the repair area, plastic repair, prime, prep for spot paint, paint, lifetime warranty. You'd end up with a repair that would outlive the already beat up and chipped bumper.

Or option 2. $300 wamjam. You might notice the repair if you knew what you were looking for. But most people would never see it.

These days more and more panels are getting replaced instead of repaired. It's too bad that panel alignment isn't an art that lots of repairers have mastered. Lots of bad work out there. But most people don't notice.

Well, can say that if I ever need that kind of repair on one of my vehicles I will definitely look you up. Seems there are less and less craftsman like u and more and more parts replacers. Seems to be the way of the world in many trades these days.

[SuperCub]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Lose the key fob for your VW and see what that sets you back.

Grizz

Almost $400 for my wife's Toyota Rav.

[tullfan]

700 bucks for a rear disc on a mid 2000’s Bmw motorcyclye. Nothing special, no magic stopping power, not pretty, just a disc. Lol. And the abs units, electric brake pumps. Uugh! So complicated to stop a motorcycle. Bmw.
Tullfan

[javlin101]

I know it is a lowley 2011 used Jetta I5 but have put 50k on it so far and did the clutch(previous owner needed to learn to drive a standard) and rear brakes. Been a great vehicle for the past 4 years and would drive it anywhere. What can i say. Oh paid $12k fot it.

[RO CC]

I don’t think german vehicles are a bad idea. In Germany. Or Europe, for that matter. Just like an american vehicle is the most financially smart option this side of the pond.

As the OP looked at repairs/maintenance costs, I do think the way to go is to buy local. Always! And cars will brake, with less and less kilometres between shop visits, no mater what brand the car is. Unless one is looking for that car which will become desirable or collectable down the road, why bother? And I’d like to hear which modern car would fit into that category.

Actually, when it comes to modern vehicles, we shouldn’t have to pay a dime for them at the dealer, as long as we keep taking them back for repairs at the brand dealership. And they would still make money.

Just my two pennies.

Edit: one of the reasons we pay less upfront for a german car here is that the brand knows they’ll ding us badly when it comes down to maintenance. It works the same the other way around: american vehicles in Germany.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Dean2

So, not to leave you hanging, quote was $6,500 of which parts was $1,600. Effectively makes this vehicle a write-off from a minor cosmetic bump in the front bumper. Black book is $4,000 and Retail it is worth about $6,000 max. Teledogs was right when he said write-off.

Those that said take it to a different place were spot on. Same repair work at another body shop, not BMW certified but still replacing the parts, repaint etc, $2,700. Plastic weld and blend the paint $800.

Long and short of it, German Dealerships and any Certified repair shops are just stupid expensive and WAY over priced. When you can have exactly the same repair done for roughly one third the price you know they are trying to shaft you. Just out of curiosity I checked for a replacement front facia for a Lexus of the same vintage, it was half the price of the BMW.

Like I said, will never own another German car because of their poor reliability and ridiculous parts costs.

If the car ain't worth that much I'd say just drive it the way it is.

[Twisted Canuck]

Well.....I like German cars anyway. Yup, they are expensive to fix apparently. But I haven't had to fix mine. Absolutely love driving my VW Tiguan, and my other summer car. They are paid for, and worth the price to me. After driving a Ford E series van for work for the last 18 years (a couple different ones), all I can say is, its a real treat to drive something well made when I'm not going to work. The Fords have been mostly reliable, other than one transmission fixed under warranty. But rusting out? You bet they do. And they drive like an ox cart. I've had really good luck with Toyotas as family vehicles over the years, still love them and the kids all drive them, but I don't regret purchasing my current German vehicles. Each to their own. If money is the main issue, don't get one, buy something else for sure. Point A to point B is fine too.

[robbiebobbie]

I have had a 2010 BMW X3, straight 6, no turbo for 7 years. Oil changes, filters, and brakes done once. Only 5-40 top of line German oil and filter. $150 an oil change every 6000 kms. $800 for brakes. Superstar all weather Hakk tires. Not a top BMW by any stretch but really fun and comfy.

It was hit in the rear bumper in a parking lot and was fixed through the other persons insurance. I believe it was around $2500. There are sensors in that bumper.

Drives like a sports car and comfortable beyond anything else I have been in.
We have a 2006 4 banger Toyota rav 4 that we use as everyday driver. Also a super SUV.

One of my best buds was apprenticed through Mercedes out of high school in Germany before he came here in his 20's. He OK'd the one I bought. He does not recommend taking it out of the garage in anything under -15. They are not made for our dry and cold winters.

My bud takes no crap. If you are not going to service and treat your German car as he recommends, don't bring it to his shop and expecting it to be OK. I do what he tells me to do when he tells me to do it. They drive so good because the whole machine is finely tuned for performance and comfort.

Do not buy one where you do not know the maintenance history and it should be spotless. Don't buy one if you don't want to pay top dollar to maintain it when they tell you to.

Those are my 2 cents.

[Dean2]

So RB

Kind of making my point, an SUV that you can only drive less than half the year?

To be fair to BMW, if I could only get German cars, I would take a 6 cylinder normally aspirated BMW in a 3 series with as few options as I could get. They tend to be very reliable power train wise so as long as you don't develop electrical problems they are usually pretty trouble free. Still very expensive to maintain at the dealer , and repairs are stupid high but they don't usually take a lot of repairing for the first 250K. The 5 and 7 series have so many electrical problems it would not matter which motor you have.

With respect to the razor sharp handling of German cars, too many Car and Driver magazine readers. There are lots of Japanese and North American cars that actually handle just as well. No you can't compare a F-150 to a BMW 3 series, but try driving a Mercedes G wagon and you will see just how bad a German truck is for handling, gas mileage. Great off road capability but they make a F-150 feel like a vette.

If German cars were about half the price to maintain, and didn't have such an over priced sticker new they would still not be my first choice for cars to own in Alberta weather conditions. Lucky for the Germans not everyone agrees with me and some people don't mind spending many thousands more a year to run their cars.

If your really want to try one out get a real cheap used one that has been well maintained and decide from there.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by HVA7mm

$5.99 to $15.99

Perfect!

Tell the guy to stick this on over the damage, and embrace his inner Deutschland.

[whiteout]

Originally Posted by robbiebobbie

I have had a 2010 BMW X3, straight 6, no turbo for 7 years. Oil changes, filters, and brakes done once. Only 5-40 top of line German oil and filter. $150 an oil change every 6000 kms. $800 for brakes. Superstar all weather Hakk tires. Not a top BMW by any stretch but really fun and comfy.

It was hit in the rear bumper in a parking lot and was fixed through the other persons insurance. I believe it was around $2500. There are sensors in that bumper.

Drives like a sports car and comfortable beyond anything else I have been in.
We have a 2006 4 banger Toyota rav 4 that we use as everyday driver. Also a super SUV.

One of my best buds was apprenticed through Mercedes out of high school in Germany before he came here in his 20's. He OK'd the one I bought. He does not recommend taking it out of the garage in anything under -15. They are not made for our dry and cold winters.

My bud takes no crap. If you are not going to service and treat your German car as he recommends, don't bring it to his shop and expecting it to be OK. I do what he tells me to do when he tells me to do it. They drive so good because the whole machine is finely tuned for performance and comfort.

Do not buy one where you do not know the maintenance history and it should be spotless. Don't buy one if you don't want to pay top dollar to maintain it when they tell you to.

Those are my 2 cents.

So winter humidity levels are the issue? What parts does he say fail and in what humidity range?

[KGB]

^^^ That’s exactly why I wouldn’t touch these cars. I need a vehicle that can start and be driven in -25C. I don’t need a whiny cry baby. If I want a vehicle to drive only in a summer, I would get an Austin Marten DB9.
Have been driving Honda’s and Acura’s cars and SUVs in the past 20 years, wouldn’t touch anything else. These babies fire up sitting outside in -30C with a full synthetic oil with no problem and never gave me a trouble on a winter roads. And Maintanance is relatively cheap.

[EZM]

I'm the first to admit when my opinion is "worth consideration" or not .... this is one case where I do have significantly more insight compared to most people ........

I've had more than a few German SUV's and cars over the years.

I travel throughout the year and park my car at the airport in 40 below for a week. Every second or third week travel kinda frequency. Never had an issue there, or ever, starting or running my sensitive to cold or dry air German car. Not once. Been doing this for 20 years.

Can't say the same for other vehicles I've owned. I can tell you, though, I've had to boost other cars, in the wee hours of the morning, while picking up my car at that same airport. None of those cars I remember boosting were German cars. That alone doesn't prove anything, except, these cars have not been sensitive to our winters any more than other cars in my experience. If anything, based on the fact I haven't had an issue, I'd say they are reliable and not sensitive .... maybe I've been lucky.

In terms of handling, I'd disagree, I have not been in a domestic SUV or Sedan of any kind, at any price, that is even remotely comparable. I've driven a number of cars too, as, ironically in my travels, I get to rent a car every second or third week and, with my upgrade points, I do get cool free upgrades on some "high end" Japanese and domestic vehicles to compare with.

I firmly stand behind my opinion on handling, brakes, comfort, smooth power, etc... and that came from experience - not from reading a car magazine .... sorry Dean - we disagree and that's cool.

I just don't see it that way - I think you got a crook to give you a quote.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by EZM

I'm the first to admit when my opinion is "worth consideration" or not .... this is one case where I do have significantly more insight compared to most people ........

I've had more than a few German SUV's and cars over the years.

I travel throughout the year and park my car at the airport in 40 below for a week. Every second or third week travel kinda frequency. Never had an issue there, or ever, starting or running my sensitive to cold or dry air German car. Not once. Been doing this for 20 years.

Can't say the same for other vehicles I've owned. I can tell you, though, I've had to boost other cars, in the wee hours of the morning, while picking up my car at that same airport. None of those cars I remember boosting were German cars. That alone doesn't prove anything, except, these cars have not been sensitive to our winters any more than other cars in my experience. If anything, based on the fact I haven't had an issue, I'd say they are reliable and not sensitive .... maybe I've been lucky.

In terms of handling, I'd disagree, I have not been in a domestic SUV or Sedan of any kind, at any price, that is even remotely comparable. I've driven a number of cars too, as, ironically in my travels, I get to rent a car every second or third week and, with my upgrade points, I do get cool free upgrades on some "high end" Japanese and domestic vehicles to compare with.

I firmly stand behind my opinion on handling, brakes, comfort, smooth power, etc... and that came from experience - not from reading a car magazine .... sorry Dean - we disagree and that's cool.

I just don't see it that way - I think you got a crook to give you a quote.

As far as the quote being a crook, would maybe not go quite that far. They are a well respected long term certified repair shop for BMW and only one of two in Edmonton. What I will say about them is just like the dealerships, they are well over priced and rely on high end car owners being relatively price insensitive. I know if it was my car there is no way in hell I would be paying that price to have the work done, there are lots of quality alternatives at a way lower price point.

You've had lots of German cars, I have had a few mixed in with a whole lot more that weren't German. We clearly have different opinions on them and that is perfectly fine. The one thing I will say, of all the guys that I have known that have owned German cars, more of them think like me than like you. That said, if those differences didn't exist we would all be driving the same car and that would be no fun at all. Guy should do whatever makes him happy and what works for them. The rest is just a friendly discussion.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KGB

^^^ That’s exactly why I wouldn’t touch these cars. I need a vehicle that can start and be driven in -25C. I don’t need a whiny cry baby. If I want a vehicle to drive only in a summer, I would get an Austin Marten DB9.
Have been driving Honda’s and Acura’s cars and SUVs in the past 20 years, wouldn’t touch anything else. These babies fire up sitting outside in -30C with a full synthetic oil with no problem and never gave me a trouble on a winter roads. And Maintanance is relatively cheap.

I had a 1980 BMW, and I had zero issues with it for the 200k that I drove it. My 1989 VW was trouble free , but the heater would not keep the vehicle warm below -30. The only vehicle that I owned that gave me issues in the cold was my 2002 Avalanche, at -40 pretty much every warning light on the dash would light up, and would stay on , until the vehicle warmed up. A friend had a Lincoln with the automatic leveling suspension, and in the cold the rear end would rise as high as it could, and it looked like a car from the 70s that someone jacked up to put larger tires on.

[pinelakeperch]

When you buy a European vehicle (not a Mexican-made VW), you have to factor in the higher repair costs, it's just a reality of ownership. If you don't want to pay to play, then don't play. Buying a 10-15 year old BMW and thinking that you're not going to spend the equivalent of a 2006 Chevy Cobalt in repairs is not realistic. I say this generally, and am not directing this response to the original post.

As an aside, since when did the word "drive" get replaced with "run?" As in, "I run a BMW" as a opposed to "I drive a BMW."

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by Dean2

As far as the quote being a crook, would maybe not go quite that far. They are a well respected long term certified repair shop for BMW and only one of two in Edmonton. What I will say about them is just like the dealerships, they are well over priced and rely on high end car owners being relatively price insensitive. I know if it was my car there is no way in hell I would be paying that price to have the work done, there are lots of quality alternatives at a way lower price point.

You've had lots of German cars, I have had a few mixed in with a whole lot more that weren't German. We clearly have different opinions on them and that is perfectly fine. The one thing I will say, of all the guys that I have known that have owned German cars, more of them think like me than like you. That said, if those differences didn't exist we would all be driving the same car and that would be no fun at all. Guy should do whatever makes him happy and what works for them. The rest is just a friendly discussion.

Pretty sure I know which shop quoted that repair. When I worked in the trade 20 yrs ago, they were already a "high" end body shop and worked with the top end dealers and boy were they charging for it. Yet customers of these dealers only went where they told them to go for a "factory" repair.

I looked at your pics and thought, a heat gun, a little finesse from behind and you might not even have to paint it.

[sjr]

3 Things to remember about German cars , Overpriced , Over engineered and Over here .