The victims of suicide

[MAC]

"but you tear up the people who love you," Judgement on their behavior
"If sh!t is going bad today, there is always a way to straighten it out"
How do you know what situation he is dealing with - Judgement on his ability
"I GUARANTEE that in time you will be happy" How can you make that Guarantee. Judgement on how he feels HAPPY
"Suicide may seem like solution to your problems, but it will destroy the ones who love you." Judgement on his behavior
"so man up and ask for help instead of creating innocent victims"
Judgement on his Manhood and guilt trip
"If nobody is talking about it, HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO THEM" Judgement, how do you know he is not trying to communicate. People always say I did not see this coming. There are always signs and it does not involve melt downs or people shouting from the roof top. They are subtle. THESE ARE ALL SAID BY YOU IN THIS THREAD.

So if someone feels they are worthless and cant get their lives straight.
Do you really believe what some may consider innocent little statements, will pass by them without some feeling of judgement?

I am sorry if I come off as harsh on this but it is a daily fact of things I deal with everyday and have too much experience with. I AGREE completely about talking it out. But that wont happen if we dont get past the stigma.
The people that suffer with deppresion feel ashamed and far too many people cant speak about it without bringing the shame out.

MAC

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Ok. I'm confused. You stated people were waiting for him to open up - but nobody seen it coming.

If there are no signs that things are bad, how does anyone know there is a problem? He was a very quiet man to begin with, so things didn't seem out of place. I suppose people were waiting his whole life for him to open up rather than instigating a personal conversation with.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MAC

"but you tear up the people who love you," Judgement on their behavior
"If sh!t is going bad today, there is always a way to straighten it out"
How do you know what situation he is dealing with - Judgement on his ability
"I GUARANTEE that in time you will be happy" How can you make that Guarantee. Judgement on how he feels HAPPY
"Suicide may seem like solution to your problems, but it will destroy the ones who love you." Judgement on his behavior
"so man up and ask for help instead of creating innocent victims"
Judgement on his Manhood and guilt trip
"If nobody is talking about it, HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO THEM" Judgement, how do you know he is not trying to communicate. People always say I did not see this coming. There are always signs and it does not involve melt downs or people shouting from the roof top. They are subtle. THESE ARE ALL SAID BY YOU IN THIS THREAD.

So if someone feels they are worthless and cant get their lives straight.
Do you really believe what some may consider innocent little statements, will pass by them without some feeling of judgement?

I am sorry if I come off as harsh on this but it is a daily fact of things I deal with everyday and have too much experience with. I AGREE completely about talking it out. But that wont happen if we dont get past the stigma.
The people that suffer with deppresion feel ashamed and far too many people cant speak about it without bringing the shame out.

MAC

It's not judgement, it's bringing the facts to light that are clouded, man why is that so hard for you to get?

Instead of judging me and my statements on this, if you are the expert on this, why don't you offer some useful advise???

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by bb356

Some people like life ... some hate it and choose to end it ... nuff said .

I'm sure there are way less sensitive threads you can make an ***** of yourself on.

[sns2]

Why the hell is anyone taking Kurt to task? Are you ______ clueless??? If you can't help from being an ass, take it to pm. It is not your thread to hijack. Damn.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It's not judgement, it's bringing the facts to light that are clouded, man why is that so hard for you to get?

Instead of judging me and my statements on this, if you are the expert on this, why don't you offer some useful advise???

I have. See how this works. You are not listening.
I get what you are saying. Telling someone that is in a deep depression that these are facts wont be heard. There is no bright side and all things said will only be taken in a negative manner. We are dealing with a mental illness.
Stop trying to be rational about this it does not get through to someone that is struggling.

You can start a conversation. But you need to listen more than talk. You will not convince a person by telling them what they should feel, think and do.
But if they feel heard it is a great weight off their shoulders.
I am not an expert, I still have a long ways to go and there is no quick fix to this for anybody.

I posted this in another thread about suicide, it comes close to helping some understand


" A human being can survive almost anything, as long as there is an end in sight. But depression is so insidious, and it compounds daily, that it's impossible to ever see the end. The fog is like a cage without a key. "
Elizebeth Wurtzel

MAC

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MAC

I have. See how this works. You are not listening.
I get what you are saying. Telling someone that is in a deep depression that these are facts wont be heard. There is no bright side and all things said will only be taken in a negative manner. We are dealing with a mental illness.
Stop trying to be rational about this it does not get through to someone that is struggling.

You can start a conversation. But you need to listen more than talk. You will not convince a person by telling them what they should feel, think and do.
But if they feel heard it is a great weight off their shoulders.
I am not an expert, I still have a long ways to go and there is no quick fix to this for anybody.

I posted this in another thread about suicide, it comes close to helping some understand


" A human being can survive almost anything, as long as there is an end in sight. But depression is so insidious, and it compounds daily, that it's impossible to ever see the end. The fog is like a cage without a key. "
Elizebeth Wurtzel

MAC

If you don't see there being any problems, how is it that a guy can start up a conversation about it?

Should I just ask all my buddies if they feel like killing themselves, then start listening?

That's what this thread is about man. Aside from just asking him out of the blue "You don't seem any different today but, do you feel like killing yourself?", how are we to know this was how he felt? That's why I'm trying to encourage people to talk about it, that's why I'm letting them know that talking about it isn't a sign of weakness, that's why I'm saying talk about it so the ones who love you can help.

What would you have done when there were no signs? You can't answer it he question because you don't know the man, but you ought to know that every case is different, but in every case talking about it is the first step of not making sense of the situation.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

PM sent

Thank's

[MrDave]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Ok. I'm confused. You stated people were waiting for him to open up - but nobody seen it coming.

I suspect Kurt doesn't proof read his posts.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

If you don't see there being any problems, how is it that a guy can start up a conversation about it?

Should I just ask all my buddies if they feel like killing themselves, then start listening?

That's what this thread is about man. Aside from just asking him out of the blue "You don't seem any different today but, do you feel like killing yourself?", how are we to know this was how he felt? That's why I'm trying to encourage people to talk about it, that's why I'm letting them know that talking about it isn't a sign of weakness, that's why I'm saying talk about it so the ones who love you can help.

What would you have done when there were no signs? You can't answer it he question because you don't know the man, but you ought to know that every case is different, but in every case talking about it is the first step of not making sense of the situation.

You are completely right. Talking about it openly is the best way to get it started. Being a casual freind, there likely was not any signs you could have noticed. This is why I speak up. There is a Stigma and we all need to make it safe for these troubled people that need help to speak up. We are still a long way from making them feel safe. Some preconceptions need to disappear for this to happen.

Tip: When asked to promise that they wont harm themeslves. They agree but most often dont keep the promise.
When asked that if they feel like harming themselves, please call me before you do anything. Is almost always kept.

Point being slight differences can have dramatic results.

Have to go this is bringing up some bad memories.
With 60,000 members some are going through some bad stuff.
You can PM me to unload, we dont ever have to meet if you dont want to.
But as Kurt has said. Talk to someone.

I am sorry if I come off as preachy, not intended. A very personal subject.

MAC

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MAC

You are completely right. Talking about it openly is the best way to get it started. Being a casual freind, there likely was not any signs you could have noticed. This is why I speak up. There is a Stigma and we all need to make it safe for these troubled people that need help to speak up. We are still a long way from making them feel safe. Some preconceptions need to disappear for this to happen.

Tip: When asked to promise that they wont harm themeslves. They agree but most often dont keep the promise.
When asked that if they feel like harming themselves, please call me before you do anything. Is almost always kept.

Point being slight differences can have dramatic results.

Have to go this is bringing up some bad memories.
With 60,000 members some are going through some bad stuff.
You can PM me to unload, we dont ever have to meet if you dont want to.
But as Kurt has said. Talk to someone.

I am sorry if I come off as preachy, not intended. A very personal subject.

MAC

No worries, I understand it's not always the easiest thing to understand what someone is saying over the internet, but I'm glad the point of talking about it is getting across.

[catnthehat]

EVERYBODY needs to get civil and respectfull in this thread .
That is all I am going to say
Cat

[bb356]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

EVERYBODY needs to get civil and respectfull in this thread .
That is all I am going to say
Cat

Cool Cat ... sorry .

[Jamie]

Ok.. This isn't easy to speak of but its best if we do actually talk..
I used to think that Suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do.
UNTIL.....
Until I figured out that when you are in such a dark place that you manage to convince yourself that what you are doing is the most UNSELFISH thing you can do. Your mind tells you that all those around you are much better off with out your Useless/Pain filled/Pathetic/Nasty/Unimaginative/Failure filled/ azz around.

Over the past year I have lost 3 friends to suicide. all were in the same age group and I can't help but wonder if we men get to a point in our lives where we come to understand we will never be the Men were expected ourselves to be.

My story goes like this..

We lost our house to a fire
I lost my Mom/business partner
I opened and lost a major business
My marriage fell apart
Because of the business, all savings and the family home were gone.
I suffered some major depression and couldn't see a way out.

I went over to Canadian Tire and purchased a tarp for the mess I was about to make in the garage. I had planned out the notes to the few I thought were left in my life. The morning I was going to do this I waited for the kids to go to school and my soon to be x wife to leave.

It was 10 AM and I gathered up the materials I needed to get this done.
It was at that point I walked by my truck keys. For some still foggy reason I picked them up and headed for the Doctors. I feel like I crawled into that office. I asked the nurse if I could see my Doc. Her response was that he was booked and could I come back in 2 days. I immediately broke down and started to sob. She came around the desk, gave me a hug and took me back to his personal office..

Things started to get better from that moment forward. When I think about it now, it makes me very emotional to know how close I was at that point. Even typing this has me in tears. Not bad tears, more grateful that I found the help and didn't listen to my mind spinning at million miles a hour.

Talk about this crap.. Don't be shy. Being embarrassed by it is part of the process of buying the tarp... The feelings need to get out. The reality of the situation is MUCH MUCH different than what your mind is telling you.

To the OP.. Talk with this kid. Be open, don't hide the subject. Its uncomfortable but we all owe it to each other as you never know when you are going to need the same support.

Funny, as I type this, one of brightest lights in my life just came in the door.. It's a light I wouldn't have seen again.. I am taking my Son out to lunch now.

Be good to each other people.

Jamie

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I'm sure there are way less sensitive threads you can make an ***** of yourself on.

Ive been making an arse out of myself since 2010 on this forum ... your thread aint nothing special .

[silverdoctor]

Kurt. I'm not going to harp on this but...

Kids carry guilt. When my parents divorced some 30 years ago, they fought and argued like cats and dogs. Things were said in our vicinity that I know now were just words of anger - but back then I felt like their divorce was my fault.

Nobody ever sat me down and told me different.

Now, the same kids a couple of years later have to deal with the suicide of their father. If they felt guilt over the separation, then I guarantee they are feeling somewhat at fault for this.

All I know is what I know. If my mother had committed suicide a couple of years after the divorce - I likely would have followed suit sometime after.


Take the time, talk to the kid. Even if you have to lie to him, make him understand that there is nothing he could have done to cause this. You don't know what's going on in his mind - and now is not the time for everyone to wait and see what happens. Tell him that you are there for him, that you're all ears. Don't put that onus on your son.

Just my two cents.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ok.. This isn't easy to speak of but its best if we do actually talk..
I used to think that Suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do.
UNTIL.....
Until I figured out that when you are in such a dark place that you manage to convince yourself that what you are doing is the most UNSELFISH thing you can do. Your mind tells you that all those around you are much better off with out your Useless/Pain filled/Pathetic/Nasty/Unimaginative/Failure filled/ azz around.

Over the past year I have lost 3 friends to suicide. all were in the same age group and I can't help but wonder if we men get to a point in our lives where we come to understand we will never be the Men were expected ourselves to be.

My story goes like this..

We lost our house to a fire
I lost my Mom/business partner
I opened and lost a major business
My marriage fell apart
Because of the business, all savings and the family home were gone.
I suffered some major depression and couldn't see a way out.

I went over to Canadian Tire and purchased a tarp for the mess I was about to make in the garage. I had planned out the notes to the few I thought were left in my life. The morning I was going to do this I waited for the kids to go to school and my soon to be x wife to leave.

It was 10 AM and I gathered up the materials I needed to get this done.
It was at that point I walked by my truck keys. For some still foggy reason I picked them up and headed for the Doctors. I feel like I crawled into that office. I asked the nurse if I could see my Doc. Her response was that he was booked and could I come back in 2 days. I immediately broke down and started to sob. She came around the desk, gave me a hug and took me back to his personal office..

Things started to get better from that moment forward. When I think about it now, it makes me very emotional to know how close I was at that point. Even typing this has me in tears. Not bad tears, more grateful that I found the help and didn't listen to my mind spinning at million miles a hour.

Talk about this crap.. Don't be shy. Being embarrassed by it is part of the process of buying the tarp... The feelings need to get out. The reality of the situation is MUCH MUCH different than what your mind is telling you.

To the OP.. Talk with this kid. Be open, don't hide the subject. Its uncomfortable but we all owe it to each other as you never know when you are going to need the same support.

Funny, as I type this, one of brightest lights in my life just came in the door.. It's a light I wouldn't have seen again.. I am taking my Son out to lunch now.

Be good to each other people.

Jamie

The best post so far ... the nurse with a hug is priceless .

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ok.. This isn't easy to speak of but its best if we do actually talk..
I used to think that Suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do.
UNTIL.....
Until I figured out that when you are in such a dark place that you manage to convince yourself that what you are doing is the most UNSELFISH thing you can do. Your mind tells you that all those around you are much better off with out your Useless/Pain filled/Pathetic/Nasty/Unimaginative/Failure filled/ azz around.

Over the past year I have lost 3 friends to suicide. all were in the same age group and I can't help but wonder if we men get to a point in our lives where we come to understand we will never be the Men were expected ourselves to be.

My story goes like this..

We lost our house to a fire
I lost my Mom/business partner
I opened and lost a major business
My marriage fell apart
Because of the business, all savings and the family home were gone.
I suffered some major depression and couldn't see a way out.

I went over to Canadian Tire and purchased a tarp for the mess I was about to make in the garage. I had planned out the notes to the few I thought were left in my life. The morning I was going to do this I waited for the kids to go to school and my soon to be x wife to leave.

It was 10 AM and I gathered up the materials I needed to get this done.
It was at that point I walked by my truck keys. For some still foggy reason I picked them up and headed for the Doctors. I feel like I crawled into that office. I asked the nurse if I could see my Doc. Her response was that he was booked and could I come back in 2 days. I immediately broke down and started to sob. She came around the desk, gave me a hug and took me back to his personal office..

Things started to get better from that moment forward. When I think about it now, it makes me very emotional to know how close I was at that point. Even typing this has me in tears. Not bad tears, more grateful that I found the help and didn't listen to my mind spinning at million miles a hour.

Talk about this crap.. Don't be shy. Being embarrassed by it is part of the process of buying the tarp... The feelings need to get out. The reality of the situation is MUCH MUCH different than what your mind is telling you.

To the OP.. Talk with this kid. Be open, don't hide the subject. Its uncomfortable but we all owe it to each other as you never know when you are going to need the same support.

Funny, as I type this, one of brightest lights in my life just came in the door.. It's a light I wouldn't have seen again.. I am taking my Son out to lunch now.

Be good to each other people.

Jamie

Jamie, I can't thank you enough for posting this. It helps shed some insight into the other side of the coin. I'm so glad you took the step to seek help, as I'm sure your kids are as well. You are an inspiration, enjoy your afternoon!


There are some posting here that think this is a joke, i don't see any place for them here.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by bb356

Ive been making an arse out of myself since 2010 on this forum ... your thread aint nothing special .

I believe you, accept the part about "2010" and "this forum".

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I believe you, accept the part about "2010" and "this forum".

Explain please

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You don't know me, trust me, I know way more about mental illness then you can imagine.

AND, you still don't get it. People were waiting for him to open up about it, well that time never came because now he's dead without talking about it, I'm sure because it wasn't the "manly" thing to do. You seem to have a hard time comprehending what I wrote so I will make it as clear as possible for you and try to explain it again.

The point I am trying to get across is that talking about it and dealing with isn't a sign of weakness, it's the opposite.

I'M NOT JUDGING ANYONE. I am trying to let them know that talking about will not only help them, but will help all those that love them.

I didn't read the whole thread but you nailed the problem right there. For years now in the Veteran's community we've been trying to get across that people NEED to reach out and seek help for their situation when they find themselves on the brink. Many people feel that it's a sign of weakness to reach out and suffer in silence when the opposite is true. For some people it takes a lot of courage to reach out for help and suicide is the easier route for them. PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE THE COURAGE TO REACH OUT! They are not alone and many people that have gone through it are eager to help them get back on their feet. There is no reason to suffer in silence.....ever!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by bb356

For a dude that is so conserned about one's mental health ... he sure shoot's alot of pm's with four letter word's

I thought you had thick skin?

Since you want to bring it up, maybe post the PM's and let everyone know what's being said behind the scenes. I'm more than ok with it. Then they can see who we are.


For the record, you're the first person in 8 years I have sent a pm to out of disgust..... congrats.

[bb356]

Sorry Cat done here !!!

[couleefolk]

So, sitting here reading all this, I can't help but wonder if there are people I know sitting on the edge. Of the two folks I knew that did themselves in, one has always had a bit of a crazy side, married the wrong woman, couldn't have any kids, and she rode him hard. I didn't really peg him for killing himself. The other one was a classmate, didn't really know him, everyone seemed to love hanging around him, I coached his kid in soccer, saw him in church, visited with him a few times after school. Rumors are he quit his meds, and second day of his holidays decided to just end it. Left a lovely family behind. I was always told you just can't take your own life, that's all there is to it. Maybe if society didn't make folks feel like losers if they don't drive fancy cars and have huge houses, there wouldn't be so many depressed folks around. What is actually causing this depression if it isn't material things? Maybe it is people that won't give them the time of day. Even in the religious community I live in, there are always folks looking down on other folks, and you don't have to say it out loud to let people know that you don't think much of them. The folks I know of that have official depression, are always the folks that have to compare themselves to other folks, but can't achieve the same standards. The folks that I know that are happy, aren't always the richest or best looking, but they enjoy what they have been blessed with and know already that when times are tough that they have friends that will help them through. If half the folks on here saw what little I need to be happy, they would die in unbelief. All I can say, is that life is to short as it is, make every day a good one, don't make it shorter.

[J0HN_R1]

Originally Posted by bb356

Explain please

I believe he's inferring that, possibly based off previous conversations you've had either with him or someone else, you've been "arsing around" for longer than you let on...

It's all in good fun, I imagine. But sometimes BB, it's just better left unsaid...

Seeing how my step-fathers ex-wife killed herself when my step-brother & I were in grade 4-5, this is a touchy subject.

A subject that should be taken quite seriously.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I thought you had thick skin?

Since you want to bring it up, maybe post the PM's and let everyone know what's being said behind the scenes. I'm more than ok with it. Then they can see who we are.


For the record, you're the first person in 8 years I have sent a pm to out of disgust..... congrats.

Cool

[NSDucknut]

It's a tough thing. My wife has had depression on some level since she was a kid. Been in the hospital 2 times in the past 7 years , once for an attempt. Been going through it all again over the last 2 months. It is debilitating at times for everyone.

How can you understand why someone would want to end it all who technically has it all? Happy marriage, beautiful kids, smart as a whip and the most beautiful person inside and out? It's a demon of a disease.

For a period in may I truly thought I might find her gone one day. With a lot of help and her finally wanting to feel better has made life a little easier right now, but it can be a daily struggle.

Don't be quick to judge the person with the illness OR their loved ones, it is beyond a difficult and complicated thing we live through.

[pikergolf]

Thanks for sharing Jamie, that was a courageous act.

[hilt134]

I have gad family memeber try and suceed in killing them selfs. I have counsoled friends who where thinking of it and gotten them help. Anyway i figure you cant tell whats going to set someone off. My cousin shot himself because his girlfriend broke up with him at 18 before going to college. No one knew what was going through his head and never will. We had a speaker when i was young in school and her freind had killed him self. She spent an hour telling us how people who did it where victims and how we should never call them selfish or cruel. My views are harsh and cold compared to hers but if it gets you to the next day alright.

My biggest thing to point out is when ever you find your self in that position of either talking someone down from the edge or talking to the people left behind. Get your self a good counsler or confidant. You cant fix people if your broken yourself.

And make sure you talk to your own kid aswell goodness knows this wont be easy for him either. Your sons in for the long haul and he need to know that when hes freaked out and doesnt know what to do about his friend and what hes feeling that he can go to you at anytime. Good luck man

[bluther2]

Kurt and Jamie and the others who are sharing personal information, thank you. Some of the other contributions, thank you for bumping the thread to the top at least.

I get why the OP started this thread, and am not doing an analysis on the word selection. I applaud the sentiment that moved you to speak and Jamie to share. We all wish no children (young or old)had go through this situation.
Keep talking, keep sharing, be involved. We can't stop people who make a choice, but it is easier on us if we don't have the regret of not doing something.