The good? The Bad? on DOA

[wolfcrazy]

What is the big deal with a DOA?

Why are you for or against the DOA?

I know I’ll probably get beat up over this but …. here are my thoughts,

The Good of having a DOA,

The DOA would help ensure that registered traplines aren’t abolished. Help the government acknowledge that trapping is a viable industry in Alberta. Would also ensure that traplines are being utilized and not just a place to have a cabin in the woods etc. Would help get a younger generation of trappers on the landscape to carry on the tradition of trapping. No competition in your trapping area because you have the rights to trap that area.

The Bad of having a DOA

I guess the bad would be the cost of 300.00 for a registered line and 100.00 for resident trappers and I’m not sure of the cost for juniors (but it is tax deductible). The current policies/rules could be in forced.

The Good of not having a DOA

Resident trappers get trap wherever they were able to set a trap. A lot like the American system. Maybe a permit system for some furbears to ensure that they aren’t over harvested.

The Bad of not having a DOA

Lost of cabins in the woods for a trapping. Having to remove your cabin/assets after your 5 yr renewal is up. If we were a able to set up a “trapping” camp in the bush we would have to take it down after the season and possibly get a permit for $$. Other trappers competing in “your” area. At the governments mercy regarding policies etc. Possibly not much say when it comes to using ATVs/snowmobiles in the bush (land use framework).

I think without a DOA we could be at risk with trapping, as we know it. We could also be at risk of paying more for trapping permits, ATV permits, Camp permits, tag costs etc. I don’t have all the answers and these are just some of my thoughts on the DOA. I realize that some of the good and bads can go both ways depending on your situation.

Please share your thoughts.

[huntfishtrap]

I'm not trying to knock you down but your post just shows how uniformed Trappers are on the propose DAO...other than it IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL it is not a DOA it is a DAO. You have a good post here, there are alot of issues surrounding this topic. Even a Director of the ATA that sent out pro DAO letters and instructions on how to get in touch with your MLA didn't even know what DAO meant. He had Delegated Authority Order. DAO means Delegated Administrative Organization.


Fact:-Trappers do not know what is in this document as it has changed in content several times and is confidential to ATA executive. If it isn't then pm me a copy.

Fact:-Trappers have not voted on this document, only the GP vote which was ONLY to procede with feasability of having one. Somehow this has got off track and interpreted as ALL the trappers of Alberta voted for a DAO. This vote in any case did not include First Nation, Metis, ALL RFMA holders or Resident Trappers.

Fact:- The Cabin Policy is to be changed into legislation sometime soon and is a stand alone document. The Cabin rules and regs are a stand alone document and is seperate from the DAO.

Fact:- There is a clause in the last DAO presented (two years ago) that does not allow for sale or transfer of an RFMA. That means you can't sell it or pass it down to family/friends etc..

Fact:- There are four categories of stakeholders that will have to be involved to encompass ALL the Trappers of Alberta, the First Nations, The Metis, RFMA holders and Resident Trappers. Not just a few ATA members at a meeting. So far all groups are not included.

Fact:- no set licence fee for the above different categories of trappers has been finalized. There has to be a defined number of participants to define this number.

Fact:- There is no concrete evidence that the RFMA system is being dismantled other than someone's rumours. The DAO has no provision in any case should the Govt. decide to change this system.

Fact:- The ATA has gone through some problems in the past llittle while and truly Members are not aware of the financial state of the Association, or whether it can be considered a viable Association at this time.

I believe that so far this DAO process is severely flawed and truly the "Trappers of Alberta" which again include the four categories listed above do not have a clue what is in the document or how it will apply to them. It is also not financially sustainable nor feasable. If the Govt. needs a few more bucks per licence even if it is the $300.00 quoted in the Post I would rather give my money to SRD and let them administer the "Trappers of Alberta" than try to fund a disfunctional DAO.

Thanks for writing your post Wolfcrazy, I hope other trappers whether they are for or against the DAO send in a post. I hope it will include facts, not just rumours and "leaked documents". Also let's keep it civil in order to continue Wolfcrazy's thread.

-

[wolfcrazy]

Well I made a mistake and did type DOA and not DAO

[wolfcrazy]

I have added some links that I have found on DOAs – oops DAOs

http://www.environment.alberta.ca/01876.html

Here’s the ACAs DAO

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...ent-Dec-08.pdf

You may have to copy it to yours address bar to open it.

Fact:- There is a clause in the last DAO presented (two years ago) that does not allow for sale or transfer of an RFMA. That means you can't sell it or pass it down to family/friends etc..

I agree with HFT on a few points but wasn't it Gordy that had said he seen that clause they had put in the DAO and worked to have it removed?

[wolfcrazy]

So what are the questions there?
Post them here and maybe we can track down some answers.

[wolfcrazy]

So rereading the letter from Gordy to the masses. We get a few answers as to what is happening with the MOU and DAO.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/attac...7&d=1296570063

[sourdough doug]

[QUOTE=wolfcrazy;900941][LEFT]
"So rereading the letter from Gordy to the masses."

Is this what they are referring to when they speak of -
The Gospel According to Gordy - (GAG)

HFT.... You have covered a lot of the issues that are of concern to the everyday trapper out there and all mentioned could be greatly expanded on.
The latest concern - is - will the ATA continue to EXIST with all the SNAFU'S, having taken place in the past few years.. and NO ACCEPTABLE answers being given at all...

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by wolfcrazy

I have added some links that I have found on DOAs – oops DAOs

http://www.environment.alberta.ca/01876.html

Here’s the ACAs DAO

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...ent-Dec-08.pdf

You may have to copy it to yours address bar to open it.

Fact:- There is a clause in the last DAO presented (two years ago) that does not allow for sale or transfer of an RFMA. That means you can't sell it or pass it down to family/friends etc..

I agree with HFT on a few points but wasn't it Gordy that had said he seen that clause they had put in the DAO and worked to have it removed?

The clause that said in the DAO there was no transferability was read a couple years ago at the "Presidents" meeting. Even Mark Spafford who is alllegedly the negotiator for the ATA on this upon questioning didn't understand what this meant. Klassen interuppted saying and I will quote "Oh they snuck this in again". The presented document wasn't even vetted before presentation to this meeting. What does that tell you?

Is it still there? Members sure aren't informed although at the Sundre meeting with our Zone Diector Geg McKinnon he was asked this question and the response was "well you know we have to give up somethings to get this thing through".

i will reiterate what I said before. ATA membership does NOT comprise the "Trappers of Alberta".

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by wolfcrazy

So rereading the letter from Gordy to the masses. We get a few answers as to what is happening with the MOU and DAO.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/attac...7&d=1296570063

Do you also get a few answers as to why the ATA Executive shirked their feduciary responsibilities in allowing the organization to function without any responsibility for 7 months and even his his update indicated the financial well-being to the organizaton is not known?

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by wolfcrazy

I have added some links that I have found on DOAs – oops DAOs

http://www.environment.alberta.ca/01876.html

Here’s the ACAs DAO

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...ent-Dec-08.pdf

You may have to copy it to yours address bar to open it.

Fact:- There is a clause in the last DAO presented (two years ago) that does not allow for sale or transfer of an RFMA. That means you can't sell it or pass it down to family/friends etc..

I agree with HFT on a few points but wasn't it Gordy that had said he seen that clause they had put in the DAO and worked to have it removed?

The DAO's with ACA, AHEIA etc. are functioning well. They actually have revenue to sustain them. The ATA right now have an unknown financial picture, and I will refer you to the "Presidents" update not giving a real "warm and fuzzy" financial picture. If all is well then let the membershipship know with actual numbers and back up financial statements which they are entiled to. The Govt. has balked at this DAO for now at least 5 years. I remember the "President " apppying for grants over a million dollars at a crack. They were refused. I wonder why? It just won't work.

[Gabby61]

Guys this is a great thread and there sure isn't much talk from anyone about....for it or against it ???
I think it's the biggest cluster !@#$ since Pearl Harbour and until I know more about it and what it all entails, I will NOT be voting for it, if the Trappers of Alberta ever get to vote. Way to many negatives that NOONE seems to be able to answer ???

Just my opinion.

[northerntrapper]

I've commented on the DOA and MOU on other threads, and I haven't been enlightened any more now than when I wanted someone to lay out the facts in black and white, and didn't receive a response.
As far as the ATA managing it, from what I can see, they can't steer the ship they have now. I would be very tentative when it comes to paying the higher fees to trap under these schemes. And I'm sure a lot of the trappers out there that are not members, are not going to meekly walk up with hundreds of dollars in hand to become a part of something that the present general membership doesn't even know anything about.
I seriously believe that continuing to be a member of the ATA in it's present form of upheaval is questionable. Someone, somewhere has to start providing some answers.

[NPRT]

Originally Posted by northerntrapper

I've commented on the DOA and MOU on other threads, and I haven't been enlightened any more now than when I wanted someone to lay out the facts in black and white, and didn't receive a response.
As far as the ATA managing it, from what I can see, they can't steer the ship they have now. I would be very tentative when it comes to paying the higher fees to trap under these schemes. And I'm sure a lot of the trappers out there that are not members, are not going to meekly walk up with hundreds of dollars in hand to become a part of something that the present general membership doesn't even know anything about.
I seriously believe that continuing to be a member of the ATA in it's present form of upheaval is questionable. Someone, somewhere has to start providing some answers.

I think the reason it isn't laid out in Black and White at this point is because it does not exist in Black and White. This is because it is a thought that won't exist on paper until it is completed in negotiations. If any of you have ever dealt with goverment agencies you will know what I mean. It's like dealing with upper management here at my day job. You don't want to repeat what they tell you as it will change tomorrow and those bellow you will call you a liar and incompetent!!!!!!!!

Just my take on it

[huntfishtrap]

NPRT you are correct, a document is not complete until all issues are finalized, agreed to and ratified, that's pretty simple stuff.

It is the issues listed in the previous posts that are of concern. And you are right it is a "thought"...hopefully a quick passing one.

[NPRT]

Originally Posted by huntfishtrap

NPRT you are correct, a document is not complete until all issues are finalized, agreed to and ratified, that's pretty simple stuff.

It is the issues listed in the previous posts that are of concern. And you are right it is a "thought"...hopefully a quick passing one.

Unfortunately I see quite a bit of speculation in what you call fact. I personally saw a well rounded crowd in Grande Prairie and I believe that all of the groups you mention were represented there. This was however just a vote to pursue the DAO however and I would like to take this time to thank all of the members of the ATA exectutive that are working so hard to promote the future of trapping!!!

[huntfishtrap]

NPRT, what you saw in Grande Prairie was a very well rounded group of Trappers to be sure, however it was 178 trappers out of a total of over 2400 total trappers in our Province.

Please point out the speculation in my post.

I am not being disrespectful here but I would like you to tell me how the ATA Executive are "promoting" the future of trapping? Promotion is image.

[Captain Fred]

Speculation:

Perhaps the other 2022 trappers really didn't care to be there?

Conclusion:

Had they cared they would have come.

[huntfishtrap]

I think you must be a Liberal or NDP candidate Freddie


Communication and proper process would allow the balance of the Trappers decide unless they don't recognize the ATA as the governing body for the four groups of trappers we have in Alberta, which is the case. Anyway, like NPRT said it was a vote to go on a feasability foray for a DAO not to put one in place.

[sourdough doug]

It's at times like this, that I wish I had an alternate place to go to, just as if I don't want to sell furs thru the ATA anymore, I can go to Halford.. ?????..

[Captain Fred]

I have many names to call you too, however I shall refrain.

Hopefully you are disciplined by the moderator.

We can express ourselves. We are not to attack each other.

[Captain Fred]

Hopefully you at least went to these meetings and are heavily involved in the process if you have such a strong opinion of what should be done.

I'm not stating whether your support or lack of support is correct or incorrect. Just that if you want to grumble about things then hopefully you have at least done so in the proper channels where your voice would count.

I suspect people on the forum hear would rather not hear a bunch of whining if you were to lazy to be involved.

Take for instance when Klassen became president... did you run against him?

Now since Grand Prairie, as you became unhappy, did you run for president to exact the changes you believe are right for the Trappers of Alberta?

If you have not done anything within the association outside of grumbling to others, then please refrain from grumbling here.

[huntfishtrap]

I am heavily involved Fred and there will be some changes coming, I hope shortly. Thanks and I appologize if I offended you.

[Gabby61]

I heard if the Liberals get in, they are going to SQUASH this DAO. So I think we will be ok !!!!!

[wolfcrazy]

While watching the federal campaign I can’t help but think that if people don’t go out and vote they may not be represented. Trappers had a choice in most cases to attend the convention in G.P. to vote. Many trappers in Alberta don’t even have a membership to the ATA. Why not? Maybe they don’t want to support them or they don’t care.

The ATA is an association of elected volunteers for the most part. The president and directors donate their time and money to represent the trappers of Alberta. How much money and time would we donate to promote trapping? The board travels to Edmonton and locals for meetings etc in most cases at their cost.

If we had a DAO we would have a paid president that would be able to dedicate all his/her time to the ATA and not have to worry about making a living first. The government already recognizes the ATA as the voice for trappers. Otherwise why would they have them manage trapline compensation and trapper education?

Gordy is a busy man and unable to make it to each locals meeting to explain the DAO and what is happening with the ATA etc. So I thought I would help do my part. I have contacted some locals and now spreading the word here looking for questions that you would like Gordy to answer. The Peace River local is putting the meeting on. I may even video it to post somewhere so that people that can’t attend can hear it firsthand. Due to the location space is limited but the meeting will be held May 1st at 2 pm.

[Captain Fred]

I wasn't offended at all actually. Sometimes it's fun calling each other names! Isn't it?

To call one a Liberal or NDP'er tho... there is nothing lower!

Gabby61, lucky for us the Liberals will never get in Alberta... at least not in the current reality we call existence.

But if they did, they would probably get rid of the DAO, the Registered Trapline, the Resident trapper, firearms, Nascar Racing, WWF, Extreme Fighting, and Hockeye Night in Canada... and replace with such propoganda as "Little Mosque on the Prairie" "My Two Dads" "Ellen" and other such wonderful programs.

Be nice to get rid of these today's conservatives, but the problem is what would you get in exchange? Even the Wildrose Party is against firearm rights. There is no recourse, and while Morton and his buddies are a bunch of commies, they are probably still the best thing for the trapper in Alberta.

(Not trying to hijack the thread, I am not trolling, please continue. DAO ONWARD!!!)

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by wolfcrazy

While watching the federal campaign I can’t help but think that if people don’t go out and vote they may not be represented. Trappers had a choice in most cases to attend the convention in G.P. to vote. Many trappers in Alberta don’t even have a membership to the ATA. Why not? Maybe they don’t want to support them or they don’t care.

The ATA is an association of elected volunteers for the most part. The president and directors donate their time and money to represent the trappers of Alberta. How much money and time would we donate to promote trapping? The board travels to Edmonton and locals for meetings etc in most cases at their cost.

If we had a DAO we would have a paid president that would be able to dedicate all his/her time to the ATA and not have to worry about making a living first. The government already recognizes the ATA as the voice for trappers. Otherwise why would they have them manage trapline compensation and trapper education?

Gordy is a busy man and unable to make it to each locals meeting to explain the DAO and what is happening with the ATA etc. So I thought I would help do my part. I have contacted some locals and now spreading the word here looking for questions that you would like Gordy to answer. The Peace River local is putting the meeting on. I may even video it to post somewhere so that people that can’t attend can hear it firsthand. Due to the location space is limited but the meeting will be held May 1st at 2 pm.

I agree the ATA should have a paid Executive Director, they have created an Organization that is beyond total Volunteer assistance. I am not so sure the Govt. does recognize the ATA as the voice for ALL Trappers of Alberta. They do not manage ALL the compensation in Alberta and the Treaty and Metis are setting up their own Organizations for Education. What about the Resident Trappers input? What is the plan to communicate and receive input from non-ATA members? If you think that is not necessary then you are not talking about the Trappers of Alberta, you are talking about members of the ATA, and even I would venture to say a large number of them have no idea what is transpiring.

I think maybe before you go out on a huge promotional campaign, you should understand what is in the document. Have you received the latest version? If so please post it here, it may clear a lot up. Do you know the state of the ATA's finances and well-being after the last update by the President. The update is posted on the Trapping Discussion somewhere. But if you feel comfortable about promoting something that nobody has seen in writing in it's ratification form, I guess go ahead.

[wolfcrazy]

I think maybe before you go out on a huge promotional campaign, you should understand what is in the document. Have you received the latest version? If so please post it here, it may clear a lot up. Do you know the state of the ATA's finances and well-being after the last update by the President. The update is posted on the Trapping Discussion somewhere. But if you feel comfortable about promoting something that nobody has seen in writing in it's ratification form, I guess go ahead.

I don't think I'm going on a "huge promotional campaign" by helping create a forum where people can get some information. As I stated when I started this trend I don't know what the DAO all entails and I was looking to educate myself on it. The last I heard there isn't a "final" DAO document. I believe it is still being drawn up and it hasn't been summited to the ATA yet.

Well I guess I do agree that the ATA doesn't deal with native issues. There has been talk on the DAO or even the MOU for years. So I find it hard to believe that most of the trappers haven't heard anything at all about it.

l believe all trappers resident, RFMA holders and native have to have a license to trap if from the band office or a SRD office. The government has all their information and they could share that the government is working on a DAO with the ATA. Otherwise with the privacy act it would be impossible to get the personal information.

I admit that I don't have all the answers but huntfishtrap might. There always critics. You can't make everyone happy.

[300-510]

I get the feeling youll be voting ndp wolf,you sissy.

[wolfcrazy]

Originally Posted by 300-510

I get the feeling youll be voting ndp wolf,you sissy.

Hmmmm I don't think so.

[huntfishtrap]

Originally Posted by wolfcrazy

I don't think I'm going on a "huge promotional campaign" by helping create a forum where people can get some information. As I stated when I started this trend I don't know what the DAO all entails and I was looking to educate myself on it. The last I heard there isn't a "final" DAO document. I believe it is still being drawn up and it hasn't been summited to the ATA yet.

Well I guess I do agree that the ATA doesn't deal with native issues. There has been talk on the DAO or even the MOU for years. So I find it hard to believe that most of the trappers haven't heard anything at all about it.

l believe all trappers resident, RFMA holders and native have to have a license to trap if from the band office or a SRD office. The government has all their information and they could share that the government is working on a DAO with the ATA. Otherwise with the privacy act it would be impossible to get the personal information.

I admit that I don't have all the answers but huntfishtrap might. There always critics. You can't make everyone happy.

I also don't understand how someone could be pro-DAO when we don't even know what will be in the final document. The last version presented, like I said had non-transferablity in it and had slipped past the Executive. There was no business plan to fund it. The funding was supposed to be based on the 300 bucks per RFMA for licencing. If you exclude Treaty, Metis, non-ATA members then what? Do the Trappers of Alberta get to vote on the final document before signature? Who in the trapper categories gets to have input?

This is definately the case of "the cart before the horse". The process in my opinion was totally botched.

There are D.A.O.'s that are working well but this proposal has too many issues to be able to function at all.

Has anyone heard if there has been a financial update after the ATA Presidents's update some time ago?