Cecil killed for Trophy.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkivory

I have heard all of the arguments for and against trophy hunting in Africa, so please do not try to educate me on the subject, I am well versed.

Obviously not. These cull hunts are for meat sale. The trophies are not brought home.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkivory

I know many people that have been to Africa to hunt, one right now hunting Elephants. Without exception the only thing that they brought home was the cape, skull and tusks.

All African hunts that foreigners do are trophy hunts. Like I said, I do not have an issue with anyone going to Africa to Trophy Hunt, only those who try to disguise it or pretend that it is something that it is not.

I have heard all of the arguments for and against trophy hunting in Africa, so please do not try to educate me on the subject, I am well versed.

Well since you can't bring any meat back it would make sense that all they bring back is the Cape, skull, horns and tusks.

Anybody that travels around the world to hunt is trophy hunting, but it's also eaten. So is there any difference from anybody else hunting ?

I've had guys from all over the world come here and hunt and they've never taken back an ounce of meat, but I can't taste the difference between a moose I shot and one that was trophy hunted, they're both delicious

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Well since you can't bring any meat back it would make sense that all they bring back is the Cape, skull, horns and tusks.

Anybody that travels around the world to hunt is trophy hunting, but it's also eaten. So is there any difference from anybody else hunting ?

I've had guys from all over the world come here and hunt and they've never taken back an ounce of meat, but I can't taste the difference between a moose I shot and one that was trophy hunted, they're both delicious

Thanks for making my point!

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The articles that I have seen all mention the lion being poached. The fact that is was poached makes even hunters that would normally not have an issue with the hunting methods , get upset with this situation.

Just because an article mentions that the animal was poached does not make it fact.
No facts are known for sure. I have re-read the provided articles and understand that some are saying no permit and others are saying they had a permit. Who do you believe?
Also, is there 2 Cecil's? One being shot by a Spaniard and one by an American?? Which paper has it right.

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by chuck

Obviously not. These cull hunts are for meat sale. The trophies are not brought home.

So they work for UNICEF and are on a mission to feed the locals and save Africa. Blaa, blaa, blaa, whatever!

[DiabeticKripple]

while i have no issue with hunting, i have an issue with this.

1. no permit to kill it, so it was poached
2. they just took the cape and head. if youre going to kill something, at least donate the body to the local villages, dont just leave it to rot.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

while i have no issue with hunting, i have an issue with this.

1. no permit to kill it, so it was poached
2. they just took the cape and head. if youre going to kill something, at least donate the body to the local villages, dont just leave it to rot.

You are correct about the no permit (no lion on quota part )

As for leaving the carcass to rot, the locals won't eat lion in Zim. They won't eat leopard, hyena or crocs either.

The locals where I hunted believed the spirits of their elders lived in the big predators. When I killed my croc I thought they would be excited about all the white meat. When I asked they all shook their heads and said they wouldn't eat it. Me and the PH joked about cooking it for them and us for lunch the next day. When we got back from our morning hunt they had burned the whole carcass in a Bon fire. They said the evil spirits would haunt them if they ate their ancestors, can't blame them for that I guess

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Just because an article mentions that the animal was poached does not make it fact.
No facts are known for sure. I have re-read the provided articles and understand that some are saying no permit and others are saying they had a permit. Who do you believe?
Also, is there 2 Cecil's? One being shot by a Spaniard and one by an American?? Which paper has it right.

Could you please post a link to a single article that specifies that there was a permit for lion for that location, as I have yet to see such a claim in an actual news article.. The dentist simply claims that he was unaware of the fact that there was no permit, and that he thought the outfitter had arranged a permit, but even the article with his interview does not confirm that there was in fact a permit.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkivory

So they work for UNICEF and are on a mission to feed the locals and save Africa. Blaa, blaa, blaa, whatever!

Do you hunt?

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Could you please post a link to a single article that specifies that there was a permit for lion for that location, as I have yet to see such a claim in an actual news article.. The dentist simply claims that he was unaware of the fact that there was no permit, and that he thought the outfitter had arranged a permit, but even the article with his interview does not confirm that there was in fact a permit.

From the 2nd link posted in this thread.

"Walter James Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota, is believed to have paid £35,000 to shoot and kill the much-loved lion with a bow and arrow. The animal was shot on July 1 in Hwange National Park. Two independent sources have confirmed the hunter's identity to the paper, which has also seen a copy of the relevant hunting permit."

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

From the 2nd link posted in this thread.

"Walter James Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota, is believed to have paid £35,000 to shoot and kill the much-loved lion with a bow and arrow. The animal was shot on July 1 in Hwange National Park. Two independent sources have confirmed the hunter's identity to the paper, which has also seen a copy of the relevant hunting permit."

Which permit? A permit for lion for a different location where they claimed that the lion was shot, so that the kill would appear to be legal? Or a permit for lion where the lion was actually shot? As well, that paragraph also states that the lion was killed in the national park, which contradicts statements in the same article, saying that it was killed outside of the park.

The animal was shot on July 1 in Hwange National Park.

Later in the article.

. He was lured out of the national park and shot.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Which permit? A permit for lion for a different location where they claimed that the lion was shot, so that the kill would appear to be legal? Or a permit for lion where the lion was actually shot? As well, that paragraph also states that the lion was killed in the national park, while every other source claims that it was killed outside of the park.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. What are we supposed to believe??????

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

This is exactly what I'm getting at. What are we supposed to believe??????

From the very same article. Notice thatthese statements are very specific, not vague like the statements that you quoted about the permit.

On Tuesday, Zimbabwe National Parks issued a statement confirming the charges.

"Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015," the statement said.


"All persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.

"Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt."

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by chuck

Do you hunt?

Yup, lot's!

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

From the very same article. Notice thatthese statements are very specific, not vague like the statements that you quoted about the permit.

I can see I'm wasting my time. Have a nice day.

[Torkdiesel]

From my source on the ground in Zim

1. There was no quota or permit for lion on "Antoinette farm" the property where the lion was shot.
2. The lion was killed outside the park boundaries, about a km or so out
3. The other outfitters are not happy
4. Baiting lions is the only way to effectively hunt and kill mature males
5. This was not a canned hunt, there are no fences on these properties

[trapperdodge]

Zimbabwe is one of the most corrupt places on the planet. It's quite likely that the dentist thought he was legal. It now looks like the PH and a farmer are charged with some kinda poaching offense. I dunno maybe?
The dentist is being taken to the wood she'd at home. His practice closed abruptly and he has received death threats. Maybe he did nothing wrong but he is paying a big price.
Hunting exists at the pleasure of the non hunting public. The minute the non hunting public decides hunting is no longer an except able activity they will stop it. All of us hunters have skin in this game. Hunting is getting a serious black eye over this incident and we should all worry.

[CaberTosser]

Now that the local authorities have weighed in on the matter it seems that there was no permit. One wonders if the guide let the client in on this tidbit, perhaps even having falsified documents to the effect? If the fellow was knowingly poaching I can't defend him, but if he was under the impression that he was within the law and not aware that the lion was lured from the park then I feel bad for him. The public response to this is quite ghastly, what with people spewing their vitriol about vengeance against him, the media circus, him having to close his business and go into hiding, etc. I'm not a trophy hunter and never will be, but I do think it's necessary to stand in solidarity with them due to the fact we're all hunters and will be at the mercy of public sentiment (uneducated as it largely is on the matter). I find the willingness of the masses to immediately jump on the bandwagon before having all the facts rather disheartening, that his life is being threatened and so many are calling for harm to come to him is frankly quite unnerving. I hope he and his family find somewhere safe to weather the storm.

If the guides lired the lion unknown to the hunter and brought him to "the kill site their spotter located the lion at" then I support him. If he was aware of the baiting and where the animal was from its not something I'd personally back, but I still think the reaction from many is over the top, considering that most of them have animal remains in their fridges & freezers, and will continue to pay for the killing of animals throughout their lives.

[PBHunter]

Here's some good information from Accurate Reloading.com on Lion Hunting. A lot of hunters and conservationists feel lion hunting is necessary to preserve the species, with groups like Panthera, trying to work with hunters to develop good strategies to maintain feasible lion harvest strategies ... one of the key factors is a lion's age ... older the better, and the best way to determine the age of the lion ... baiting ...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/200...agingguide.pdf

http://www.accuratereloading.com/2012/dhl.pdf

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...m/f/3311002751

Unfortunately, there are always "bad apples'

Not even going to touch the "canned" lion hunting that occurs in South Africa, but here's a trailer for an up coming documentary, "Blood Lions" ... if you thought old Cecil got the public going, watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=-T86GCjCpus

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Not even going to touch the "canned" lion hunting that occurs in South Africa, but here's a trailer for an up coming documentary, "Blood Lions" ... if you thought old Cecil got the public going, watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=-T86GCjCpus

Book your lion hunts now folks, after this one hits the main stream media it will likely all be over.

Don't you just love when people who have no ball in the game interfere like this. Like good old Pamela saving the seals, but not the livelihoods of the people who harvest them for a living.

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Book your lion hunts now folks, after this one hits the main stream media it will likely all be over.

Don't you just love when people who have no ball in the game interfere like this. Like good old Brigitte Bardot saving the seals, but not the livelihoods of the people who harvest them for a living.

Fixed that for you!

When she was saving the seals, people listened because she was a cuttie


581a962943d76f4c78feaf605ba0bf1f[1].jpg


NOW nobody listens because she is irrelevant

Brigitte Bardot 1[1].jpg

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Book your lion hunts now folks, after this one hits the main stream media it will likely all be over.

Don't you just love when people who have no ball in the game interfere like this. Like good old Pamela saving the seals, but not the livelihoods of the people who harvest them for a living.

The land owner and the PH have a ball in the game, and if the PH had not instructed the hunter to shoot the lion because there was no permit, the antis would not have been presented with the opportunity to use this incident to promote their cause. The PH did a huge disservice to everyone involved with hunting. If the hunter knew that there was no permit, then he did just as much damage.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The land owner and the PH have a ball in the game, and if the PH had not instructed the hunter to shoot the lion because there was no permit, the antis would not have been presented with the opportunity to use this incident to promote their cause. The PH did a huge disservice to everyone involved with hunting. If the hunter knew that there was no permit, then he did just as much damage.

I believe Tork was referring to the documentary "blood lions", the link I posted, about "canned", aka "game farmed" lion hunting in South Africa, in his statement about the end of lion hunting

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Just because an article mentions that the animal was poached does not make it fact.
No facts are known for sure. I have re-read the provided articles and understand that some are saying no permit and others are saying they had a permit. Who do you believe?
Also, is there 2 Cecil's? One being shot by a Spaniard and one by an American?? Which paper has it right.

Dont forget the one those army guys killed

[Deo101]

I"m sure I'll get bashed for this...but I think what is at the route of the outrage is the idea of Trophy Hunting. Yes I understand what it does for the local economy etc but I'll never understand the "desire". This sentiment that if you're not into the idea of Trophy Hunting means you're an anti is tiresome.

The other thing that is getting old is the "outrage" from social justice warriors sitting by Facebook, Twitter etc to lay "Shame". Trophy Hunters are an easy target for these people and maybe, as hunters we'd be smart to not fuel the fire. It would be similar to laying your views on abortion, religion, lgbt, etc etc on your status and being surprised by the backlash.

To each their own....

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The land owner and the PH have a ball in the game, and if the PH had not instructed the hunter to shoot the lion because there was no permit, the antis would not have been presented with the opportunity to use this incident to promote their cause. The PH did a huge disservice to everyone involved with hunting. If the hunter knew that there was no permit, then he did just as much damage.

I was talking about the movie made about captive bred lions, not the poaching incident elkhunter

[Deer Hunter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA

Kimmel on this subject. What's an erection?

[Jenn Blair CBC]

Wow, Water Ninja, I wonder if you anticipated what a huge debate this post would generate! I am a journalist with CBC Calgary and would be interested in speaking with you about the story of Cecil the lion and some of the concerns it raises within the Alberta hunting community. Some seem to think the hunter did nothing wrong, but they worry that the story will fuel anti-hunting sentiment. Others seem to question the ethics and legality of the Zimbabwe hunt in the story. Either way, the conversation among local hunters is interesting. Please call my desk at 403-521-6153 if you`d be willing to share your thoughts on this. This invitation is open to anyone on this thread. Thanks, and please forgive my lurking. I am a hunter too, of quotes. (-;

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Jenn Blair CBC

Wow, Water Ninja, I wonder if you anticipated what a huge debate this post would generate! I am a journalist with CBC Calgary and would be interested in speaking with you about the story of Cecil the lion and some of the concerns it raises within the Alberta hunting community. Some seem to think the hunter did nothing wrong, but they worry that the story will fuel anti-hunting sentiment. Others seem to question the ethics and legality of the Zimbabwe hunt in the story. Either way, the conversation among local hunters is interesting. Please call my desk at 403-521-6153 if you`d be willing to share your thoughts on this. This invitation is open to anyone on this thread. Thanks, and please forgive my lurking. I am a hunter too, of quotes. (-;

And this is why we should stop fighting amongst ourselves

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by 300magman

And this is why we should stop fighting amongst ourselves

I think its great that shes looking for input from people who are more educated then those anti-hunters.