Cecil killed for Trophy.

[Pathfinder76]

If there were no permits it isn't much going to matter.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Aren't all African hunts just trophy hunts? I don't see Cecil being any different than an elephant or giraffe. Why do people kill giraffes for crying out loud??

I hunt, so I'm not going to judge, but there are some things u just don't understand.

They kill giraffe for food. Tons of it in fact !

[KegRiver]

My first reaction to this story was revulsion. I agree, to me is seemed at first glance to be unsporting.

But I read on, post after post, and I started to think maybe I had it wrong.
I had bought in to the reporters bias.

All too often media reports are biased. Even outright hostile towards any hunting no matter how legal or justified. I knew that from first hand experience.

I should have known better.

If there were anything illegal about this hunt, then it's up to the appropriate authorities to deal with it.

If there was no intent to do anything illegal, let the hunter enjoy a hard won trophy. It's not something I'd be interested in but I'm glad he had a good hunt, if everything was on the up and up.

[Deo101]

According this article:

The Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force charity said Palmer and professional Zimbabwean hunter Theo Bronkhorst had gone out at night with a spotlight and tied a dead animal to their vehicle to lure Cecil into range

"Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt," the Zimbabwean Parks Authority said in a statement Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/two-zimbabwean...9159.html?nf=1

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by petew

Here is another version , this one names an American Dentist.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-dentist.html

Must be true, I read it on the internet.

From that link.

On Tuesday, Zimbabwe National Parks issued a statement confirming the charges.

"Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015," the statement said.


"All persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.

"Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt."

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

They kill giraffe for food. Tons of it in fact !

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa, not one that brought any meat home.

I guess I should have said what I meant.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa, not one that brought any meat home.

I guess I should have said what I meant.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Rockjockey]

Nothing was illegal with the hunting of Cecil as a lion outside of the park........but hunting him without a quota and removing the tracking collar so you could claim to harvest him on a property with an open quota is illegal....... ie. poaching. Shoot a ram with an ear tag outside Jasper all is good. Shoot that ram inside the park and drag him over the boundary to gut him not so much.

If all info so far is correct and it was poaching we should all (anti and pro hunting camps) be calling for swift and just punishment. Acts like this put our passion into a very undesirable light that only fuels the sentiment against us as hunters.

This story is still developing if anyone cared on this board to look into. No longer is it a Spaniard but an American Dentist.......we should wait and see what shakes out.

RJ

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by Rockjockey

Nothing was illegal with the hunting of Cecil as a lion outside of the park........but hunting him without a quota and removing the tracking collar so you could claim to harvest him on a property with an open quota is illegal....... ie. poaching. Shoot a ram with an ear tag outside Jasper all is good. Shoot that ram inside the park and drag him over the boundary to gut him not so much.

If all info so far is correct and it was poaching we should all (anti and pro hunting camps) be calling for swift and just punishment. Acts like this put our passion into a very undesirable light that only fuels the sentiment against us as hunters.

This story is still developing if anyone cared on this board to look into. No longer is it a Spaniard but an American Dentist.......we should wait and see what shakes out.

RJ

Are you allowed to hunt at night there? Yahoo article states a dead animal was tied to their vehicle and lion was shot in the dark....

[Rockjockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa, not one that brought any meat home.

I guess I should have said what I meant.

Kurt505
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Here is the deal. Every animal that I harvested in South Africa was butchered for human consumption. One animal in the groups was not salvageable due to it not being found for 5 hours after being shot in 30C temps. The meat went to a shop that sold to the locals. If the locals needed meat and could not pay for it they could purchase it on credit. The organ meat was taken home by the trackers and skinners at no charge. They even at the monkey that I shot.
So no I didn't bring any meat home (not sure how I would have as it is illegal to bring meat products into Canada due to possible disease transmission) but I know that it went to feeding families in the area who were very happy to have the source of protein.

No, we didn't eat any of the animals that we shot as the money went to the farm to pay for the operations, very similar to going deep sea fishing where the catch goes to the captain. Not to many people bring home coolers full of Marlin from Mexico. However we did have wild game on several occasions roasted over the open fire.......Mmmmmmmm (Blue wildebeest tenderloins stuffed with cheese onions peppers and smoked mussels cooked to rare).

So there is some actual info for you to digest.

RJ

[Rockjockey]

Yep, different country than Canada with different rules. Some of the animals (pigs, cats, jackals) the only way to hunt them is at night - dusk/dawn over bait. I would guess that there is some artistic license to the article. Again all will come out as it is being thoroughly investigated.

The SA guys we hunted with couldn't understand why we didn't hunt our predators at night when they are most active and thought our rules were stupid.

RJ

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Are you allowed to hunt at night there? Yahoo article states a dead animal was tied to their vehicle and lion was shot in the dark....

Yes you can hunt at night on private property and campfire areas. The animal tied to the truck was dragged to the bait, same way we do it for Leopard.

The issue with this hunt is the lack of permit, which is a huge fack up in my opinion.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa, not one that brought any meat home.

I guess I should have said what I meant.

We can't bring any meat back, but we eat a bunch of it while we're there. No meat gets wasted and its dam tasty I might add

[Pathfinder76]

All I know is that I wouldn't want to be a dentist from Minesota named Palmer right now. :-)

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by chuck

All I know is that I wouldn't want to be a dentist from Minesota named Palmer right now. :-)

lol can you imagine the death threats he's getting.

but to be fair i'd still like to be the guy. he has money to burn and hunts the whole world why the heck not

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Rockjockey

Kurt505
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Here is the deal. Every animal that I harvested in South Africa was butchered for human consumption. One animal in the groups was not salvageable due to it not being found for 5 hours after being shot in 30C temps. The meat went to a shop that sold to the locals. If the locals needed meat and could not pay for it they could purchase it on credit. The organ meat was taken home by the trackers and skinners at no charge. They even at the monkey that I shot.
So no I didn't bring any meat home (not sure how I would have as it is illegal to bring meat products into Canada due to possible disease transmission) but I know that it went to feeding families in the area who were very happy to have the source of protein.

No, we didn't eat any of the animals that we shot as the money went to the farm to pay for the operations, very similar to going deep sea fishing where the catch goes to the captain. Not to many people bring home coolers full of Marlin from Mexico. However we did have wild game on several occasions roasted over the open fire.......Mmmmmmmm (Blue wildebeest tenderloins stuffed with cheese onions peppers and smoked mussels cooked to rare).

So there is some actual info for you to digest.

RJ

Again, I hunt, I'm not judging, just not my cup of tea. To say people fly to Africa to hunt for any other reason than for trophy is laughable. All I said was Cecil was killed for trophy reasons, same as an elephant or a giraffe. I don't see Cecil as being any different on a personal level.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

They kill giraffe for food. Tons of it in fact !

Literally tons. Lol It's amazing how much meat there is on one.

Also in certain areas, the old bulls will not breed. They will however beat the ever loving tar out of any other bull that tries to breed the cows. This makes it difficult to sustain populations in certain areas.

Harvesting a bull does several things...
Gives a great trophy
Keeps younger bulls from being hurt
Keeps the giraffe population healthy, genetically diverse and vibrant
Supplies a whole bunch of much needed protein to local villages or makes the PH, if in SA, a bunch of money from selling it for biltong.

[waterninja]

Well it appears that without meaning to I have po'd some members by even mentioning this story. Wasn't my intention in the slightest, but I also don't agree that stories like this should be swept under the rug and pretend it didn't happen, as some of you seem to think.
I have learned a couple interesting things, esp. about giraffes.
This is after all a hunting discussion forum. Don't think I should have to defend myself for this thread. I'm sure in the near future a lot more facts about this incident will be published.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Well it appears that without meaning to I have po'd some members by even mentioning this story. Wasn't my intention in the slightest, but I also don't agree that stories like this should be swept under the rug and pretend it didn't happen, as some of you seem to think.
I have learned a couple interesting things, esp. about giraffes.
This is after all a hunting discussion forum. Don't think I should have to defend myself for this thread. I'm sure in the near future a lot more facts about this incident will be published.

Don't worry about it WN. They were in fact breaking the law and have been charged because they didn't have lion on quota.
Everything else is just opinion.

[nube]

Got a friend in Matetsi right now hunting Lion. Wonder if it was him!!!!

[mullen1989]

Not sure if posted yet, but this guy is a convicted poacher (http://www.startribune.com/zimbabwe-...ion/318828251/). "Palmer, who has on his record a conviction for poaching a bear in Wisconsin several years ago". He's now poached twice.

No idea how you anyone could defend him knowing he's already poached.

I hunt, love doing it. But always with the goal of sustainability. Trophy hunting, for me, is a total waste. That cat brought in far more revenue from eco-tourism than the bounty that was paid.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by nube

Got a friend in Matetsi right now hunting Lion. Wonder if it was him!!!!

This one was killed on a property called "Antoinette Farm"

It's on the other end of Hwange from the matetsi blocks. Nice looking cat but no permits because they had no lion on quota. Bad day for some hunter, worse day for the PH

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by mullen1989

Not sure if posted yet, but this guy is a convicted poacher (http://www.startribune.com/zimbabwe-...ion/318828251/). "Palmer, who has on his record a conviction for poaching a bear in Wisconsin several years ago". He's now poached twice.

No idea how you anyone could defend him knowing he's already poached.

I hunt, love doing it. But always with the goal of sustainability. Trophy hunting, for me, is a total waste. That cat brought in far more revenue from eco-tourism than the bounty that was paid.

You're joking about that last comment aren't you ?

[mullen1989]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You're joking about that last comment aren't you ?

Nope, the tourism generated dollars from safari's/ecotourism dwarfs what is paid for a trophy.

This is just one link that Google came up with: http://www.endangeredspecieshandbook...ecotourism.php

"A fully maned male Lion, according to Lee Durrell (1986) in State of the Ark, is worth $500,000 as a tourist attraction, whereas a Lion shot for sport or trophy is worth between $3,500 and $8,500, and its skin about $1,000."

Like I said, Trophy Hunting is not my cup of tea. But the guy is a unequivocal poacher and should be treated as such. As hunters, we need to end this kind of behaviour.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by mullen1989

Nope, the tourism generated dollars from safari's/ecotourism dwarfs what is paid for a trophy.

This is just one link that Google came up with: http://www.endangeredspecieshandbook...ecotourism.php

"A fully maned male Lion, according to Lee Durrell (1986) in State of the Ark, is worth $500,000 as a tourist attraction, whereas a Lion shot for sport or trophy is worth between $3,500 and $8,500, and its skin about $1,000."

Like I said, Trophy Hunting is not my cup of tea. But the guy is a unequivocal poacher and should be treated as such. As hunters, we need to end this kind of behaviour.

$500,000 per year or in its lifetime ?

Hwange park has over 500 lions alone. So with approx. 50 male lions minimum your looking at $25,000,000 ??? And that was in 1986. Today it would be hundreds of millions ???
You better let Zim parks know because they're missing out on a ton of money.

Lion hunts sell for $35-70,000 just so your up to date on your numbers young man.

Don't take my word for it though. Have a look at how well Kenya's wildlife has done after they banned sport hunting. Tell me how their Eco tourism dollars are helping out those animals. In 8-10 years I'll also be able to use Botswana as an example for this, poaching elephant has increased 600% in two years without the outfitters operating. Ooops

[bat119]

The anti's are going to town on this one I wouldn't want to be in Walter Palmer's shoes right now. He says he did nothing wrong all permits were in place and it is legal to shoot a collared lion outside of the preserve. They already have petition with 12,000 signatures going and the media is frying him every way possible.

Land owners name was Honest Trymore Ndlovu

http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walter...rymore-ndlovu/

Walter will be working at 7-11 when this over

[doetracks]

Originally Posted by nube

Got a friend in Matetsi right now hunting Lion. Wonder if it was him!!!!

If he's a friend, wouldn't you know his name??

[camping4life]

He's a piece of **** in my opinion. That's a pretty cowardly way to kill something. I'd love to see him with his bow and arrow come up against a hungry pack of lionesses.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by camping4life

He's a piece of **** in my opinion. That's a pretty cowardly way to kill something. I'd love to see him with his bow and arrow come up against a hungry pack of lionesses.

You mean like baiting bears or wolves ???

How do you propose one should go about hunting a lion ?

[doetracks]

Just out of curiosity -

For those of you that have hunted in Africa, did you physically see any permits, or were you sold a hunt based on availability, thereby assuming that there were sufficient permits in place?

I have only been to SA once. Our Outfitter was stellar (Steyn Safaris - shameless plug).