Vaccinations don't cause autism

[Sundancefisher]

So far all studies purporting trying to find a problem have fallen flat.

One that kicked off the paranoia even was shown to have fudged data to help with a lawsuit.

Others fall flat due to research errors.

So bossman. Those looking to find fault with just the aluminum side failed. Those legitimately trying to study find none...I guess now you will come around and admit vaccinations without aluminum are for sure good and those with for all intensive purposes have been scientifically proven to be fine. The proven risk of death and complications from contracting vaccine preventable diseases is far higher than the vaccine complication risk.

https://www.obgproject.com/2017/10/0...fety-evidence/

[bessiedog]

Ohhh bossguy

You cannot use your precious metastudy if it is not properly peer reviewed. I’m sorry...
I will look at your other studies.....

Please read Lilperchie’s (Sundance) stuff.

Your rhetorical tactics (you call them musings) seem to be designed to dog whistle the other tinhatter types. So let’s BOTH be clear here. Yer not gonna change your position despite your berating opposing science as biased/corrupt. Tiny Perch Dude jus sciences ya up with a passel of reading there.

I’ll read yours
You read ours

Please be rational an, in the absence of any hazards, please at least go get your kids vaccinated with non pepsican material floaters ..... because ...... rational eh?

Gotta work now.


Ps

Ever post anything here non-alt-right...?


Thanks for finding stuff there Perchie...

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Completely agree. Willing to bet all medicines and immunizations have side effects. Can be something as simple as allergic reaction to major as in death. Some commercials are priceless when the medicine treats something minor yet lists a million side effects much worse than what is being treated.

Of course they do. That’s why I said you need to weigh the risks for you and your family.

[AndrewM]

Southern AB whooping cough cases have now been elevated to an outbreak:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.5323845

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by raab

Of course they do. That’s why I said you need to weigh the risks for you and your family.

Totally. Hence the risk profile for measles for instance.

1 in 500 chance of death from contracting measles

1 in 1,000,000 chance of serious complication from vaccination

What risk is better?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Southern AB whooping cough cases have now been elevated to an outbreak:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.5323845

Interesting. Another risk exercise. From the CDC

Your baby could be at risk for getting whooping cough
Since 2010, CDC sees between 10,000 and 50,000 cases of whooping cough each year in the United States. ... Most of the deaths each year are in babies younger than 3 months of age. Since 2010, up to 20 babies die from it each year in the United States

So

1 in 2500 risk of your baby dying of whooping cough

Anaphylaxis. Severe allergic reactions are very rare, but can occur with any vaccine. They start within 2 hours.
Taking kid to hospital they will be fine.

What risk is the better one?

[raab]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Totally. Hence the risk profile for measles for instance.

1 in 500 chance of death from contracting measles

1 in 1,000,000 chance of serious complication from vaccination

What risk is better?

The stat is misleading as it is not specific to Canada. The fact is in developed countries death due to measles is relatively low. You have a far better chance of dying in a highway crash or even getting mauled by a bear then dying from measles because you didn’t get a vaccine.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

The stat is misleading as it is not specific to Canada. The fact is in developed countries death due to measles is relatively low. You have a far better chance of dying in a highway crash or even getting mauled by a bear then dying from measles because you didn’t get a vaccine.

All because of the high vaccination rates in this country.

[raab]

I’d also like to talk about this aluminum adjuncts thing. If there are any in the vaccine, the chances of it effecting you are virtually zero. I’ve met people who had shrapnel lodged in their brain since world war 2, who were still all there well into their 80’s.

The risk of vaccines is the same as most drugs, a severe adverse reaction. So if your willing to take cold medication, you should get your shots. At the very least get the ones that protect from the bad diseases like hepatitis.

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

All because of the high vaccination rates in this country.

I would say sanitary conditions, and medical treatment would also play a role. The fact is most babies who die from measles, were most likely going to die anyways. The MMR vaccine was made to reduce the amount of time parents needed to take off work every year due to there kids having the chicken pox.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

I would say sanitary conditions, and medical treatment would also play a role. The fact is most babies who die from measles, were most likely going to die anyways. The MMR vaccine was made to reduce the amount of time parents needed to take off work every year due to there kids having the chicken pox.

I would bet the US has similar sanitary conditions and medical treatment that we have here so the stats should be rather similar to what we would expect in Canada.

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I would bet the US has similar sanitary conditions and medical treatment that we have here so the stats should be rather similar to what we would expect in Canada.

Your using the stat out of context. If the risk of dying from measles was 1 in 500 there’s be about 600000 deaths every year in the states. The truth is you have about 1 in 1000 chance of dying if you contract the disease. That number is much lower then the 3-4% of the population born with birth defects. So does nothing to refute my claim that deaths due to measles generally occur in already sick babies.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by raab

The stat is misleading as it is not specific to Canada. The fact is in developed countries death due to measles is relatively low. You have a far better chance of dying in a highway crash or even getting mauled by a bear then dying from measles because you didn’t get a vaccine.

You are mistaken. That is the risk of death in the first world...ie Canada.

[tirebob]

Something that has not been discussed as far as I can tell in regards to if vaccinations are ever made mandatory... What would happen if someone did have an adverse reaction and died or ended up with a lifelong issue?

I imagine it would open the door to crazy liabilities and lawsuits and that would fall upon the taxpayer if the government made these things mandatory. I mean we gave millions to a terrorist when he was guilty of exactly what he was accused of. Can you imagine the train of lawsuits over the government forcing medical injections? It would be a free for all.

I am someone who is vaccinated and vaccinated my own children, but I still believe our body is our own and no government should ever be allowed to enforce anything upon us that we do not give consent on. Educate and take on responsibilities for you own life and those close to you. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

Your using the stat out of context. If the risk of dying from measles was 1 in 500 there’s be about 600000 deaths every year in the states. The truth is you have about 1 in 1000 chance of dying if you contract the disease. That number is much lower then the 3-4% of the population born with birth defects. So does nothing to refute my claim that deaths due to measles generally occur in already sick babies.

I don't recall breaking down the stat so not sure why you are explaining it to me. Even at 1/1000 chance of dying the risk would be high. 1/20 children get Pneumonia from it. Canada's population is 37 million give or take. Assuming baby percentage is 1% with 50% of babies getting it would result in 185 baby deaths. No vaccinations would mean it is spread rampantly. Now if 85% of the population is vaccinated the amount of baby deaths would be very minimal as it currently is.

Fact of the matter is that if no one here was vaccinated, it would cause a lot of unneeded deaths.

"In 2017, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday -- up from 72% in 2000, according to WHO, which calculates that for the period from 2000 to 2017, vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths due to measles."

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Something that has not been discussed as far as I can tell in regards to if vaccinations are ever made mandatory... What would happen if someone did have an adverse reaction and died or ended up with a lifelong issue?

I imagine it would open the door to crazy liabilities and lawsuits and that would fall upon the taxpayer if the government made these things mandatory. I mean we gave millions to a terrorist when he was guilty of exactly what he was accused of. Can you imagine the train of lawsuits over the government forcing medical injections? It would be a free for all.

I am someone who is vaccinated and vaccinated my own children, but I still believe our body is our own and no government should ever be allowed to enforce anything upon us that we do not give consent on. Educate and take on responsibilities for you own life and those close to you. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Completely agree that I don't believe they should be mandatory. I feel that if there is ever an outbreak then the non-vaccinated people need to avoid high population density areas such as schools. It would be hard to police. Hence why the majority need to do our part to help out.

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I don't recall breaking down the stat so not sure why you are explaining it to me. Even at 1/1000 chance of dying the risk would be high. 1/20 children get Pneumonia from it. Canada's population is 37 million give or take. Assuming baby percentage is 1% with 50% of babies getting it would result in 185 baby deaths. No vaccinations would mean it is spread rampantly. Now if 85% of the population is vaccinated the amount of baby deaths would be very minimal as it currently is.

Fact of the matter is that if no one here was vaccinated, it would cause a lot of unneeded deaths.

"In 2017, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday -- up from 72% in 2000, according to WHO, which calculates that for the period from 2000 to 2017, vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths due to measles."

Its not even 1/1000 though. 1/1000 is in those who contract the disease. The true probability in Canada is that 1/1000 x probability of contraction. I cant find any numbers on the probability of contraction in this country. Safe to say it’s relatively low. Yes vaccines are a factor in that, but also our sanitation, advanced medical care, and isolation precautions all are a factor as well.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Something that has not been discussed as far as I can tell in regards to if vaccinations are ever made mandatory... What would happen if someone did have an adverse reaction and died or ended up with a lifelong issue?

I imagine it would open the door to crazy liabilities and lawsuits and that would fall upon the taxpayer if the government made these things mandatory. I mean we gave millions to a terrorist when he was guilty of exactly what he was accused of. Can you imagine the train of lawsuits over the government forcing medical injections? It would be a free for all.

I am someone who is vaccinated and vaccinated my own children, but I still believe our body is our own and no government should ever be allowed to enforce anything upon us that we do not give consent on. Educate and take on responsibilities for you own life and those close to you. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Agree it shouldn’t be mandatory. Problem is misinformation and those propagating false information. Stats and history shows everyone should vaccinate for their own health. People by default and common sense based upon facts would chose to vaccinate.

As for deaths from vaccinations...it is a massively lower risk than dying from the disease itself.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

A chance of your baby dying of measles is 1 in 500. Chance of dying from a MMR shot is smaller than 1 in a million.

I agree my body is my own. However if my choice puts others who don’t have a choice in jeopardy then they should respect a reduction in rights...ie kids can’t go to school if not vaccinated disputing an outbreak. Maybe even paying some health costs if they do get sick and need hospitalization.

A child with an immune deficiency should not be punished by a parents choice to not vaccinate their kids.

Interesting topic of discussion.

Interestingly enough for some of these diseases if everyone in the world was vaccinated the disease would be gone for ever.

[AndrewM]

https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/i...en/index1.html

Six common misconceptions about immunization

"Diseases had already begun to disappear before vaccines were introduced, because of better hygiene and sanitation".
Statements like this are very common in anti-vaccine literature, the intent apparently being to suggest that vaccines are not needed. Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. But looking at the actual incidence of disease over the years can leave little doubt of the significant direct impact vaccines have had, even in modern times.

For example, there have been periodic peaks and valleys throughout the years, but the real, permanent drop in measles incidence coincided with the licensure and wide use of measles vaccine beginning in 1963. Other vaccine-preventable diseases show a roughly similar pattern in incidence, with all except hepatitis B showing a significant drop in cases corresponding with the advent of vaccine use. (The incidence of hepatitis B has not dropped as much because infants vaccinated in routine programs will not be at high risk of disease until they are at least teenagers. Therefore a 15-year lag can be expected between the start of routine infant vaccination and a significant drop in disease incidence.) Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) vaccine is another good example, because Hib disease was prevalent until the early- to mid- 1990s, when conjugate vaccines that can be used for infants were finally developed. (The polysaccharide vaccine previously available could not be used for infants, in whom most cases of the disease were occurring.)

Are we expected to believe that better sanitation caused incidence of each disease to drop just at the time a vaccine for that disease was introduced? Since sanitation is not better now than it was in 1990, it is hard to attribute the virtual disappearance of Hib disease in children in recent years in countries with routine Hib vaccination (from an estimated 20,000 cases a year to 1,419 cases in 1993, and dropping in the United States of America) to anything other than the vaccine.

Finally, we can look at the experiences of several developed countries after they allowed their immunization levels to drop. Three countries —Great Britain, Sweden and Japan — cut back the use of pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine because of fear about the vaccine. The effect was dramatic and immediate. In Great Britain, a drop in pertussis vaccination in 1974 was followed by an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases of pertussis and 36 deaths by 1978. In Japan, around the same time, a drop in vaccination rates from 70% to 20%-40% led to a jump in pertussis from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979. In Sweden, the annual incidence rate of pertussis per 100,000 children of 0-6 years of age increased from 700 cases in 1981 to 3,200 in 1985.

It seems clear from these experiences that not only would diseases not be disappearing without vaccines, but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back. Of more immediate interest is the major epidemics of diphtheria that occurred in the former Soviet Union in the 1990s, where low primary immunization rates for children and the lack of booster vaccinations for adults resulted in an increase from 839 cases in 1989 to nearly 50,000 cases and 1,700 deaths in 1994. There were at least 20 imported cases in Europe and two cases in U.S. citizens who had worked in the former Soviet Union.

WHO gratefully acknowledges the permission of CDC Atlanta, to present an edited version of "Six common misconceptions about immunization".

[raab]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Agree it shouldn’t be mandatory. Problem is misinformation and those propagating false information. Stats and history shows everyone should vaccinate for their own health. People by default and common sense based upon facts would chose to vaccinate.

As for deaths from vaccinations...it is a massively lower risk than dying from the disease itself.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

A chance of your baby dying of measles is 1 in 500. Chance of dying from a MMR shot is smaller than 1 in a million.

I agree my body is my own. However if my choice puts others who don’t have a choice in jeopardy then they should respect a reduction in rights...ie kids can’t go to school if not vaccinated disputing an outbreak. Maybe even paying some health costs if they do get sick and need hospitalization.

A child with an immune deficiency should not be punished by a parents choice to not vaccinate their kids.

Interesting topic of discussion.

Interestingly enough for some of these diseases if everyone in the world was vaccinated the disease would be gone for ever.

You seem to have missed my point that it wouldn’t matter if everyone who is able to get vaccinated, was vaccinated in this country. We would still have similar rates of outbreak, putting the sick at risk. Until we restrict travel, we will see similar rates occurring. Also funny that you used the 1/500 number again, after I pointed out the problem with it. The probability of someone dying in Canada right now is far, far lower then that due to low occurrence and transmission rate.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

You seem to have missed my point that it wouldn’t matter if everyone who is able to get vaccinated, was vaccinated in this country. We would still have similar rates of outbreak, putting the sick at risk. Until we restrict travel, we will see similar rates occurring. Also funny that you used the 1/500 number again, after I pointed out the problem with it. The probability of someone dying in Canada right now is far, far lower then that due to low occurrence and transmission rate.

Why would their be similar rates of occurrence if all were vaccinated vs no one vaccinated?
If people are vaccinated there would be a much less risk travelling as they couldn't bring it back with them.

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Why would their be similar rates of occurrence if all were vaccinated vs no one vaccinated?
If people are vaccinated there would be a much less risk travelling as they couldn't bring it back with them.

Well, vaccines first off aren’t 100% effective. Second we have travellers entering the country from areas with high disease rates. And third we have a certain percentage who can’t be vaccinated anyways. If we want to get serious about disease. At the very least we should be requiring travellers coming in from countries where these diseases are prevalent to produce proof of vaccination, or refuse entry. I think common sense dictates that if my dog needs a rabies vaccination to come and go from the states. Then people should require their vaccinations to come and go from places where they’re likely to encounter these diseases. If we did that it wouldn’t matter who got vaccinated in this country because these diseases have all but been eradicated here, thanks to Voluntary vaccinations.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

Well, vaccines first off aren’t 100% effective. Second we have travellers entering the country from areas with high disease rates. And third we have a certain percentage who can’t be vaccinated anyways. If we want to get serious about disease. At the very least we should be requiring travellers coming in from countries where these diseases are prevalent to produce proof of vaccination, or refuse entry. I think common sense dictates that if my dog needs a rabies vaccination to come and go from the states. Then people should require their vaccinations to come and go from places where they’re likely to encounter these diseases. If we did that it wouldn’t matter who got vaccinated in this country because these diseases have all but been eradicated here, thanks to Voluntary vaccinations.

That is definitely an option. Bit of a slippery slope but it is an option. Risk is if the vaccination wasn't 100% successful then you have a giant population with no immunity and it would spread extremely fast. No simple solution.

Did you read the article on the whopping cough outbreak? Not from a traveler. Regardless if majority are vaccinated it is less likely to spread.

[raab]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

That is definitely an option. Bit of a slippery slope but it is an option. Risk is if the vaccination wasn't 100% successful then you have a giant population with no immunity and it would spread extremely fast. No simple solution.

Did you read the article on the whopping cough outbreak? Not from a traveler. Regardless if majority are vaccinated it is less likely to spread.

Or we could keep it voluntary as it is now, and implement the common sense policy against travellers. I’m not saying to stop vaccinating, I’m saying mandatory vaccination is needless and could be abused by the government.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

Or we could keep it voluntary as it is now, and implement the common sense policy against travellers. I’m not saying to stop vaccinating, I’m saying mandatory vaccination is needless and could be abused by the government.

As long as immunization numbers stay where they are at I completely agree that a change isn't warranted.

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

That is definitely an option. Bit of a slippery slope but it is an option. Risk is if the vaccination wasn't 100% successful then you have a giant population with no immunity and it would spread extremely fast. No .

Funny enough, back in high school I was immunized for measles and caught measles later that year and was out of commission for a couple weeks. Go figure.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Funny enough, back in high school I was immunized for measles and caught measles later that year and was out of commission for a couple weeks. Go figure.

Brutal! I have been lucky and haven't had anything that can be immunized for other than chicken pox which didn't exist at the time.
Whole house is sick with a brutal cold right now. Which I could get immunized for that!

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Lol

Key ones don’t and you still refuse to give them to your kids.

Here is a study for you.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122

2011 Nov 28;29(51):9538-43. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2011.09.124. Epub 2011 Oct 11.
Updated aluminum pharmacokinetics following infant exposures through diet and vaccination.

Mitkus RJ1, King DB, Hess MA, Forshee RA, Walderhaug MO.
Author information
1
Office of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, USFDA Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, 1401 Rockville Pike, HFM-210, Rockville, MD 20852, United States. Robert.Mitkus@fda.hhs.gov
Abstract
Aluminum is a ubiquitous element that is released naturally into the environment via volcanic activity and the breakdown of rocks on the earth's surface. Exposure of the general population to aluminum occurs primarily through the consumption of food, antacids, and buffered analgesics. Exposure to aluminum in the general population can also occur through vaccination, since vaccines often contain aluminum salts (frequently aluminum hydroxide or aluminum phosphate) as adjuvants. Because concerns have been expressed by the public that aluminum in vaccines may pose a risk to infants, we developed an up-to-date analysis of the safety of aluminum adjuvants. Keith et al. [1] previously analyzed the pharmacokinetics of aluminum for infant dietary and vaccine exposures and compared the resulting body burdens to those based on the minimal risk levels (MRLs) established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. We updated the analysis of Keith et al. [1] with a current pediatric vaccination schedule [2]; baseline aluminum levels at birth; an aluminum retention function that reflects changing glomerular filtration rates in infants; an adjustment for the kinetics of aluminum efflux at the site of injection; contemporaneous MRLs; and the most recent infant body weight data for children 0-60 months of age [3]. Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant's first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum modeled using the regulatory MRL. We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that contain aluminum adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the benefits of using vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any theoretical concerns.
Published by Elsevier Ltd.

Great, someone finally posted the sole paper on this topic. This paper is purely theoretical in nature and has been widely panned. The CDC used to claim it as evidence that aluminum adjuvants were safe but removed it from their website in 2017.

Here's a published criticism of your paper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29307441

Abstract:

We reviewed the three toxicokinetic reference studies commonly used to suggest that aluminum (Al)-based adjuvants are innocuous. A single experimental study was carried out using isotopic 26Al (Flarend et al., Vaccine, 1997). This study used aluminum salts resembling those used in vaccines but ignored adjuvant uptake by cells that was not fully documented at the time. It was conducted over a short period of time (28days) and used only two rabbits per adjuvant. At the endpoint, Al elimination in the urine accounted for 6% for Al hydroxide and 22% for Al phosphate, both results being incompatible with rapid elimination of vaccine-derived Al in urine. Two theoretical studies have evaluated the potential risk of vaccine Al in infants, by reference to an oral "minimal risk level" (MRL) extrapolated from animal studies. Keith et al. (Vaccine, 2002) used a high MRL (2mg/kg/d), an erroneous model of 100% immediate absorption of vaccine Al, and did not consider renal and blood-brain barrier immaturity. Mitkus et al. (Vaccine, 2011) only considered solubilized Al, with erroneous calculations of absorption duration. Systemic Al particle diffusion and neuro-inflammatory potential were omitted. The MRL they used was both inappropriate (oral Al vs. injected adjuvant) and still too high (1mg/kg/d) regarding recent animal studies. Both paucity and serious weaknesses of reference studies strongly suggest that novel experimental studies of Al adjuvants toxicokinetics should be performed on the long-term, including both neonatal and adult exposures, to ensure their safety and restore population confidence in Al-containing vaccines.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by raab

You seem to have missed my point that it wouldn’t matter if everyone who is able to get vaccinated, was vaccinated in this country. We would still have similar rates of outbreak, putting the sick at risk. Until we restrict travel, we will see similar rates occurring. Also funny that you used the 1/500 number again, after I pointed out the problem with it. The probability of someone dying in Canada right now is far, far lower then that due to low occurrence and transmission rate.

If everyone was vaccinated we wouldn’t have the same outbreaks. Outbreaks are in the unvaccinated.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn....ner/index.html

You are mistaken on death rate for measles in Canada. If we didn’t vaccinate it would be 1 out of 500. Measles is not a minor illness.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Great, someone finally posted the sole paper on this topic. This paper is purely theoretical in nature and has been widely panned. The CDC used to claim it as evidence that aluminum adjuvants were safe but removed it from their website in 2017.

Here's a published criticism of your paper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29307441

Abstract:

You forgot to answer the question. Are you ok with the other immunizations that don't contain aluminum?