Troubleshooting Accuracy Issues

[elkhunter11]

Yesterday, I helped a young friend get his rifle ready to hunt.The rifle was a hand me down from his grandfather, and had seen virtually no maintenance, and Cabelas had mounted the Vortex scope, and he wasn't happy with the accuracy. After getting 2-3" groups at 100m, I did some troubleshooting. The barrel was filthy, the action screws were loose, and the base screws were very loose, and the scope was canted. The trigger was 4-5lbs, and the factory loads had very flat primers after firing. After cleaning the barrel and torquing the action and base screws, and removing the scope cant, I discovered that the trigger could not be adjusted lower, so now he is going to pick up a different factory load for the next range session.
I am actually surprised that the rifle did as well as it did given the issues. The young man knew very little about rifle set up and maintenance, but now he has at least a basic understanding of things, and hopefully, he can avoid some of the issues.
That just leaves the questionable factory loads, and the young man is going to contact Browning with pictures of the flat primers and lot numbers, as they are Browning brand factory loads and the rifle is an old A-bolt.

[58thecat]

Well with all the adjustments etc sounds like he is in good hands to dial this rifle in.

Many times I tell people when not hand loading to buy various brands in the same bullet weight just to see what the rifle likes, expensive, you bet, then when you find what it like a buy a few boxes if you can now a days, the rest are for range days just to have fun.

Nothing is cheap anymore but great mentors are worth their weight in gold

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

man is going to contact Browning with pictures of the flat primers and lot numbers,

And what is that expected to accomplish?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dmay

And what is that expected to accomplish?

In the case of hot factory loads, the manufacturers have issued recalls, and reimbursed customers. It can't hurt to make them aware of the situation.

[CanuckShooter]

What caliber is it? My Brownings liked Hornady factory ammunition. Was the scope tightened down properly? Sometimes even 'smiths' don't do scopes properly.

[DiabeticKripple]

I had an issue at the range yesterday with my new rifle.

First shot, bullseye
Second shot, 4” high but centre
Third shot, bullseye
Fourth shot, 4” high
Fifth shot, either bullseye or 4” high.

Turned out I had a loose action screw in the front. It was about 1 rotation out from being tight.

When I got home I removed each action screw one at a time, cleaned the threads and added a dab of blue loctite. I then torqued the action screws to 60 inlbs and that should take care of that issue.

Now to load more and redo that ladder

[elkhunter11]

The issues that I found, are actually more common than they should be. Many people never check action screw torque, and many have scope bases and rings that aren't torqued properly. And many people have never properly cleaned the barrel, because they don't even know what products to use.

[Dick284]

Loose screws, over tight hardware.
Oil in the bedding.
Oil under scope bases.
Lubricants in the bolt internals.
Carbon and copper fouling through lack of maintenance, or crappy cleaning regimes and tooling.

It’s so common, I sometimes feel I’m in the minority………

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Loose screws, over tight hardware.
Oil in the bedding.
Oil under scope bases.
Lubricants in the bolt internals.
Carbon and copper fouling through lack of maintenance, or crappy cleaning regimes and tooling.

It’s so common, I sometimes feel I’m in the minority………

I pulled the stock , and the bases to check for more issues, surprisingly, there were none

[elkhunter11]

We shot the rifle before skeet yesterday, and groups with two different factory loads were in the 1-1/2" range, so much better, especially with the brutal trigger, that felt to be at least 5-6lbs. However, we discovered another issue , that being the Vortex Diamondback scope, which was totally unpredictable. The crosshairs wouldn't move at all for several clicks, then it would jump 2" when moved another click. My bore sight had it within 1" at 100m, but trying to fine tune the poi was frustrating. The scope will be going in for warranty after the season, and hopefully the poi will remain constant until then. The young man plans on purchasing a new rifle/scope for next year, something with a much better trigger, and hopefully a more reliable scope.
There were a few other people sighting in rifles yesterday, and most seemed to be having issues , one in particular used at least a full box, firing one shot, then adjusting the scope, chasing the poi around the target, until he ran out of ammunition, and then declaring it "good enough".

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

We shot the rifle before skeet yesterday, and groups with two different factory loads were in the 1-1/2" range, so much better, especially with the brutal trigger, that felt to be at least 5-6lbs. However, we discovered another issue , that being the Vortex Diamondback scope, which was totally unpredictable. The crosshairs wouldn't move at all for several clicks, then it would jump 2" when moved another click. My bore sight had it within 1" at 100m, but trying to fine tune the poi was frustrating. The scope will be going in for warranty after the season, and hopefully the poi will remain constant until then. The young man plans on purchasing a new rifle/scope for next year, something with a much better trigger, and hopefully a more reliable scope.
There were a few other people sighting in rifles yesterday, and most seemed to be having issues , one in particular used at least a full box, firing one shot, then adjusting the scope, chasing the poi around the target, until he ran out of ammunition, and then declaring it "good enough".

I had a very similar day yesterday.
I took a few rifles down to the range to confirm zero, and there was a fellow there with a Vortex scope having the exact same issues you described.
Warranty be damned, far too many Vortex scopes having all sorts of issues, has me totally staying away from that brand.
I know of one fellow who had 5 Vortex scopes crap the bed on him, he’s now an anything but Vortex guy.(what took him so long)


Oh ya, back to my day……
Everything was where I last left it. One has a Bushnell 4200(REM 7600), the other a Zeiss Conquest(7-08 REM 700).

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

I had a very similar day yesterday.
I took a few rifles down to the range to confirm zero, and there was a fellow there with a Vortex scope having the exact same issues you described.
Warranty be damned, far too many Vortex scopes having all sorts of issues, has me totally staying away from that brand.
I know of one fellow who had 5 Vortex scopes crap the bed on him, he’s now an anything but Vortex guy.(what took him so long)


Oh ya, back to my day……
Everything was where I last left it. One has a Bushnell 4200(REM 7600), the other a Zeiss Conquest(7-08 REM 700).

The best warranty, is one that isn't used, there seems to be way too many instances of Vortex scopes failing. I put my Bushnell bore sighter on the rifle to better show the young man the issue, and his next scope won't be a Vortex, and Cabelas won't be mounting it. Sighting in rifles seems to be challenging enough for some people, and a faulty scope, just makes it even more difficult.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The best warranty, is one that isn't used, there seems to be way too many instances of Vortex scopes failing. I put my Bushnell bore sighter on the rifle to better show the young man the issue, and his next scope won't be a Vortex, and Cabelas won't be mounting it. Sighting in rifles seems to be challenging enough for some people, and a faulty scope, just makes it even more difficult.

The use a rolled up coat on a hunk of 4x4, to sight in gang, run rampant in these parts. The fellow yesterday was going through ammo like he was in a fire fight, I offered him my extra front rest and rear bag I had in my range box, and called his shots for him using my spotting scope, I talked him through sighting in and coached him about maintaining a cooler barrel. When he left he was a 1/4”-1/2” high at 200 yards with 180’s outta his 30-06, and he consistently snake eyed the first two shots from a cold bore on his last two groups….. that there is a resemblance of repeatable hunting accuracy. Whether he could pull off a 200 yard shot under field conditions is another thing……….

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

The use a rolled up coat on a hunk of 4x4, to sight in gang, run rampant in these parts. The fellow yesterday was going through ammo like he was in a fire fight, I offered him my extra front rest and rear bag I had in my range box, and called his shots for him using my spotting scope, I talked him through sighting in and coached him about maintaining a cooler barrel. When he left he was a 1/4”-1/2” high at 200 yards with 180’s outta his 30-06, and he consistently snake eyed the first two shots from a cold bore on his last two groups….. that there is a resemblance of repeatable hunting accuracy. Whether he could pull off a 200 yard shot under field conditions is another thing……….

I see very few proper rests/bags this time of year, usually a leadsled or some other one piece abortion, or a block of wood, rolled up carpet, or even a scissor jack, with thin padding. The regular shooters, with good gear, are rarely seen at the range this time of year. And the normal seems to be shoot constantly , without letting the barrel cool, so the shooter has no idea where the poi is with a cold barrel. And of course we get dozens of inquiries from people wanting to pay a one day guest pass to sight in their rifles. People don't seem to understand that our insurance/maintenance runs 365 days per year, and their $5 or even $20 per year for a one day guest pass isn't going to pay the bills to keep a range operating.

[Dom4]

Originally Posted by Dick284

The use a rolled up coat on a hunk of 4x4, to sight in gang, run rampant in these parts. The fellow yesterday was going through ammo like he was in a fire fight, I offered him my extra front rest and rear bag I had in my range box, and called his shots for him using my spotting scope, I talked him through sighting in and coached him about maintaining a cooler barrel. When he left he was a 1/4”-1/2” high at 200 yards with 180’s outta his 30-06, and he consistently snake eyed the first two shots from a cold bore on his last two groups….. that there is a resemblance of repeatable hunting accuracy. Whether he could pull off a 200 yard shot under field conditions is another thing……….

I love that you took the time and helped this person out. We all have to learn and sometimes people are doing what they know best. Anytime we can share knowledge is a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[3blade]

Browning and vortex….kid never had a chance need new spring or new trigger all together in the off-season as well.

I worked on a pile of rifles for friends and family members this year. Without fail, every one was exactly as dick described.

But truth be known, I’ve also been that guy chasing the group around the target and swearing the whole time, and threads like this are what got me sorted out. Gotta help each other as much as we can. Good job boys.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Browning and vortex….kid never had a chance need new spring or new trigger all together in the off-season as well.

I worked on a pile of rifles for friends and family members this year. Without fail, every one was exactly as dick described.

But truth be known, I’ve also been that guy chasing the group around the target and swearing the whole time, and threads like this are what got me sorted out. Gotta help each other as much as we can. Good job boys.

I likely do a dozen or more bore sights for friends or strangers that are having issues at the range, every year, and I offer the use of my rest and bags on a regular basis. The biggest issues, after not letting barrels cool, and adjusting the scope after every shot, are poor rests, resting the barrel, or poor jobs mounting scopes.
Some people welcome some assistance, and some don't, so I ask if they would like a hand, and if they decline, I respect their wishes and leave them to their own devices.

[DLab]

I'm at the Range quite a bit this time of year, checking for guest passes,making sure the rules/cease fire, etc. are being followed. I know from experience when I see a guy with a wood block and folded towel or blanket they're likely not knowing what they're doing, usually I'll wait to see his progress then offer to help.
Aside from the obvious there is also the low power scope factor, can't see the holes, and wants a cease fire every 3-5 rounds to walk down and examine his target, have a confab with the other guy with no holes in the paper doing the same, holding up the rest of the shooters who actually know what they're doing.
Just makes the day run more smoothly.

[catnthehat]

I have started to set up one of our Shotmarker E targets at 100 yards for guys wanting to zero that do not make regular visits to the range- saves a lot of time having them walk down to check there targets, get the danged thing on the target ( our frames are very large and will register a hit anywhere in the 5'X6' target) and generally they leave satisfied.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by DLab

I'm at the Range quite a bit this time of year, checking for guest passes,making sure the rules/cease fire, etc. are being followed. I know from experience when I see a guy with a wood block and folded towel or blanket they're likely not knowing what they're doing, usually I'll wait to see his progress then offer to help.
Aside from the obvious there is also the low power scope factor, can't see the holes, and wants a cease fire every 3-5 rounds to walk down and examine his target, have a confab with the other guy with no holes in the paper doing the same, holding up the rest of the shooters who actually know what they're doing.
Just makes the day run more smoothly.

If I am doing something with my own gear, or helping a friend, I take my spotting scope, but if I am just dropping by, while doing something else at the range, I hate not having a spotting scope, because the people I am helping usually don't have one, and their scope often isn't good enough to see bullet holes in the black. And some bring binoculars, that have less magnification than their scope. Excessive cease fires not only waste a lot of time, they also create more headaches making sure that everyone empties their firearm, and stays clear of it, while people are downrange. One lady last week removed the magazine when a cease fire was called, but she didn't remove the live round from the chamber, which I caught , when I asked her to open the action. And some people just can't resist handling firearms while people are downrange, I caught two ladies looking at their husbands through the scope, as they were hanging targets . One even got offended, when I told her to step away from the firearm, while people were downrange.

[elkhunter11]

And yesterday the young hunter used the rifle to fill a deer tag. One shot, no issues at all. He arrowed a mule deer and a whitetail last month, so his deer tags are filled, just his moose tag to go. He also did well on waterfowl and pheasant, so a great season so far.

[Beached Whale]

So what's a guy supposed to if he follows all these steps and has a gun that still won't shoot? All but one of my rifles shoots well and and it seems no matter what ammo I feed it it will never consistantly shoot under 3 moa. I'm probably into 30 different handloads for it by now. Any way to diagnose a faulty barrel?

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by Beached Whale

So what's a guy supposed to if he follows all these steps and has a gun that still won't shoot? All but one of my rifles shoots well and and it seems no matter what ammo I feed it it will never consistantly shoot under 3 moa. I'm probably into 30 different handloads for it by now. Any way to diagnose a faulty barrel?

At that point if you dont have the skills to diagnose the issues take it to someone who does. Sometimes it is a bad barrel but more often than not its a rifle/ scope issue that can be remedied if a person knows how to find it.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Beached Whale

So what's a guy supposed to if he follows all these steps and has a gun that still won't shoot? All but one of my rifles shoots well and and it seems no matter what ammo I feed it it will never consistantly shoot under 3 moa. I'm probably into 30 different handloads for it by now. Any way to diagnose a faulty barrel?

By now, I would have done a proper barrel cleaning, with a good copper solvent, done a careful inspection of the crown, bedded the action, and tried a different scope. If I was still doing no better than 3moa, the rifle would be sold, disclosing the issue, or rebarreled, depending on how much I like the rifle, and how much it is worth. Given the cost of components, I wouldn't be spending hundreds of rounds on a cheap rifle, and sometimes, I just get to the point, where I am sick and tired of working with a certain rifle.

[Beached Whale]

The rifle has had 2 different scopes on it that are known to be good on other guns. This is the first thing I do on any rifle for load development after I go through the rifle mechanics. The rifle is a kimber, and has particular sentimental value to me due to its history. I would never have chased accuracy in any other rifle to this extent and would have given up long ago if it weren't for the sentiment. In fact have sold and disclosed 2 poorly shooting rifles in the past. Every step mentioned in the original post has been performed on this gun, and each lead to a slight improvement, and the sum total of all these improvements brought it down to a 3 moa gun. I guess I am just irrationally hoping that it can be made to a shooter, again due to it's sentimental history.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Beached Whale

The rifle has had 2 different scopes on it that are known to be good on other guns. This is the first thing I do on any rifle for load development after I go through the rifle mechanics. The rifle is a kimber, and has particular sentimental value to me due to its history. I would never have chased accuracy in any other rifle to this extent and would have given up long ago if it weren't for the sentiment. In fact have sold and disclosed 2 poorly shooting rifles in the past. Every step mentioned in the original post has been performed on this gun, and each lead to a slight improvement, and the sum total of all these improvements brought it down to a 3 moa gun. I guess I am just irrationally hoping that it can be made to a shooter, again due to it's sentimental history.

I would look at the crown and bedding, the last resort would be a rebarrel.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Beached Whale

So what's a guy supposed to if he follows all these steps and has a gun that still won't shoot? All but one of my rifles shoots well and and it seems no matter what ammo I feed it it will never consistantly shoot under 3 moa. I'm probably into 30 different handloads for it by now. Any way to diagnose a faulty barrel?

I'd be sending it to my barrel guy to get a new tube put on it.
Cat

[obsessed1]

First thing i would look at on a kimber is bedding ( they are bedded to a sample action so tolerances can vary), mag well ( when assembled it should be free floating a smidg), and crown. Have a look down the bore and leade with a borescope just to rule that out. Older kimbers also suffered from short firing pins that can cause erratic primer strikes.

[sns2]

Having had a number of Kimbers over the years, I agree with what Obsessed1 has said. There has to be a wee bit of clearance between the bottom of the mag box and the mag well. Just a touch so it moves and the mag box ain’t binding anywhere. That is where I would start. Crown would be second. I wish you luck, buddy. Hope all is well in your world.

[elkhunter11]

Was just sent a picture by the young hunter, he just put his antlered moose down, so four deer and a moose for him this fall. The rifle has done fine, since I sorted it out.