Latitude separation for Shiras Moose vs Canada Moose

[Chukar Hunter]

I am sure someone knows this by heart!

[marky_mark]

Depends who your asking?
Boone and Crockett/ sci/ gsco have different lines

https://www.boone-crockett.org/categ...g-game-records

https://www.slamquest.org/animal-details.php?a=21

[Bushrat]

In real world there is no line but a grey area where both subspecies mix. There are Canada moose on the Shiras side and vice versa. I think the "Shiras" sub species for moose was invented because lower 48 US moose would rarely if ever make the records book without a separate category. Surprised that U.S, Midwest and New England moose haven't also got a separate category. The Alaska/Canada subspecies moose category is another that has a huge grey area, yet they draw a line. One would have to do a DNA test to find a difference and in the grey areas the DNA could vary anywhere from one subspecies to the other and most moose closest to the "line" would be a mixture between the two. Not like there is a moose proof fence dividing the three subspecies.

[raised by wolves]

X2 on the record book nonsense. The subspecies and ranges were invented so when someone shoots a two and a half year old bull, they can say it is a trophy shiras.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by raised by wolves

X2 on the record book nonsense. The subspecies and ranges were invented so when someone shoots a two and a half year old bull, they can say it is a trophy shiras.

Basically, Just like Kodiak and Grizzly, a Boone and Crocket rule thing. One side of the ridge it's a Grizzly, the other it's a Kodiak. Of course, we have our own version, the giant Swan Hills sub species popularized by Al Oeming and since discredited.

Grizz

[marky_mark]

There is definitely a difference is size between the 3 subspecies
Obviously there is no fence that stops them from crossing these imaginary line
Those southern Moose are substantially smaller than a Canadian moose say from north Alberta
But then again, the body size of a moose from wainwright is substantially smaller than a moose from northern Alberta
And a moose from northern Alberta looks like a calf to a moose from the yukon

It’s no different than brown bears and grizzly bears
Genetically they are the same
Yet bears from the peninsula or kodiak make a mature interior grizzly look Like a cub

[Full Curl Earl]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Basically, Just like Kodiak and Grizzly, a Boone and Crocket rule thing. One side of the ridge it's a Grizzly, the other it's a Kodiak. Of course, we have our own version, the giant Swan Hills sub species popularized by Al Oeming and since discredited.

Grizz

There is no Kodiak bear category in B&C or P&Y.
Just Brown, Grizzly and Polar

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

There is no Kodiak bear category in B&C or P&Y.
Just Brown, Grizzly and Polar

And black
Don’t forget about them
Their lives matter too

[Big Grey Wolf]

I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.

Let's not forget the Siberian version, all the same species. Diet plays a large part in differences as does climate.

Grizz

[Full Curl Earl]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

And black
Don’t forget about them
Their lives matter too

I see what ya did there! Nice

[Full Curl Earl]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.

Yeah pretty much.

[James M]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.

It is. B&C themselves admitted the DNA is identical and the name is based on geography only. See video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3kmZTJ7gM

[EZM]

Absolutely true - zero genetic difference with no DNA divergence between "grizzly" and "brown" (Kodiak) bear. It can't even be classified as a subspecies as there is no divergence.

Proves the part nutrition plays in the size and health of an animal.

Don't know if that's the same issue as Shiras / Canada Moose.

There is some distinction between Roosevelt and Wapiti (American Elk) whereas the Roosevelt is a sub-species with divergence off the Wapiti line.

Same thing is true of the "nutrition" given to game farms that grow ridiculous antlers on deer .... and something more common now throughout the us as crops are planted, and supplements are put out to "grow horns".

I remember the days when a guy in the US would shoot a sad scrawny little 4x4 whitetail, call it a 10 pointer (includes the brow tines and counts both sides) and be excited posing with what I'd call is a "little fingerling" or meat buck. Things sure have changed. More and more "big bucks" are coming out of areas where the genetics and/or forage doesn't actually support a naturally large antler growth like what exists up here.

[Torkdiesel]

A moose is a moose, there’s zero difference DNA wise.

The further from the equator the bigger the body, and with moose this generally equates to larger rack size.

Some regions have different physical traits that have evolved over the years, but it’s just a moose.

Lower 48 is Shiras
Canada is Canada
Alaskan/Yukon is anything north of 60

That’s the way I see it anyway

The SCI Shiras bull**** I think was honestly done to help southern B.C. and Southern Alberta outfitters sell those hunts for what are essentially just smaller Canadian moose.

On the north end of the B.C. we have Canadian moose I’ve literally watched turn into Alaskan/Yukon moose and then back to Canadian moose before we killed them. Or put another way 15 inches into the all time B&C book as a Canadian moose, then missing the mark by 15 inches as an Alaskan/Yukon and back to hero status as a Canadian moose before dying.

Did anything change on the moose besides the fact he cost my hunter $16K to hunt him and the guy hunting with Ceaser Lake hunting the same moose $28K ??? Nope, same animal that crossed an invisible line lol

Now the guy hunting at Bonnet Plum or one of the more northern Yukon areas does have an advantage, in the moose world 400 miles north does make a difference. Likewise the guy hunting in PG shouldn’t expect to kill the bulls we do 👍

[Chukar Hunter]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

A moose is a moose, there’s zero difference DNA wise.

The further from the equator the bigger the body, and with moose this generally equates to larger rack size.

Some regions have different physical traits that have evolved over the years, but it’s just a moose.

Lower 48 is Shiras
Canada is Canada
Alaskan/Yukon is anything north of 60

That’s the way I see it anyway

The SCI Shiras bull**** I think was honestly done to help southern B.C. and Southern Alberta outfitters sell those hunts for what are essentially just smaller Canadian moose.

On the north end of the B.C. we have Canadian moose I’ve literally watched turn into Alaskan/Yukon moose and then back to Canadian moose before we killed them. Or put another way 15 inches into the all time B&C book as a Canadian moose, then missing the mark by 15 inches as an Alaskan/Yukon and back to hero status as a Canadian moose before dying.

Did anything change on the moose besides the fact he cost my hunter $16K to hunt him and the guy hunting with Ceaser Lake hunting the same moose $28K ??? Nope, same animal that crossed an invisible line lol

Now the guy hunting at Bonnet Plum or one of the more northern Yukon areas does have an advantage, in the moose world 400 miles north does make a difference. Likewise the guy hunting in PG shouldn’t expect to kill the bulls we do 👍

100% agree with your Diesel....Moose are all the same but adapt to regional variations which affects body size/antler growth. This is all fabricated to sell more hunts, just like what the Ovis Grand Slam Club has done with sheep!

[saskbooknut]

This all goes back to the hunter naturalists who collected the early specimens and the US biologists like C. Hart Merriam who classified animals on minor skeletal difference.
You got your lumpers and the splitters in taxonomy.
Since hunters created scoring systems to their own biases, artificial boundaries became necessary.

[marky_mark]

Definitely lots of grey areas
Such as a Fannin ram
Is it a dall or is it a stone
Depends on who you ask or which club your entering it in
Asian European and African Animals are far worse
How many different whitetail sub species does sci have?

[Battle Rat]

I could see a different body and antler size difference between the ones south of Calgary in the Chain lakes area compared to the northern ones.
The big Yukon ones are just in a whole different class when you go to cut up and hang the quarters.
Would be nice if there was a way of weighing the dead ones before gutting.