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  #61  
Old 07-08-2018, 09:11 AM
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Bushrat Bushrat is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
HW223 - IMO SBR practices are very relevant because they involve squeezing every bit of consistency out of a barrel that is possible... by keeping the barrel free of copper and carbon fouling.
On the other hand there are some pretty fugly barrels (mostly factory barrels) that shoot inconsistently if you clean them every 10 shots, sometimes takes 10 or 20 shots worth of fouling to fill the potholes and speed bumps with fouling before they settle in and shoot consistently. Owned a few of those and no amount of break in will ever stop them from fouling badly and they only shoot their best when fouled, not that their best is Benchrest quality groups but they often shoot MOA or better.
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  #62  
Old 07-08-2018, 09:50 AM
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Kreiger says that bore BI is not necessary in lapped bores but when the chamber is cut, reamer marks are left in the throat which lay across the direction of bullet travel. Until these “marks” are ironed out they pick up copper from the bullet jacket which is vaporized and deposited in the bore just forward of the chamber. Since copper adheres to copper very well, a build-up can occur which becomes difficult to remove later. Hence, Kreiger recommends a shoot-and-clean cycle to BI their barrels.
True, I have a shortcut I use in Factory barrels where I use a jag with 2 or 3 patches that will not fit down the bore but will fit in the throat far enough to reach those rotational reamer marks at the beginning of the lands. I saturate the patches with red JB paste, using a boreguide that keeps the rod and jag centered, insert the cleaning rod and gently bump the leade with the jag and enough patches to allow it to squeeze into the throat yet no go into the bore and gently bump the throat 50, a hundred or more checking with the borescope as I go and smooth the cutting edge off the sharper tooling marks on the throat of the lands. I like to describe this area (for lack of a better word) the 'land ramps'. I wouldn't do this with a quality barrel but sometimes factory barrels can be pretty rough, it can't make them worse, saves running precious bullets and powder down the bore trying to as some call it "iron out" those tooling marks.

Personally in my opinion it is not the bullet travelling over these marks outside of the first 1 or 3 shots where the actual soft bullet jacket may trap and collect any microscopic loose edges of these machining tool marks as they passes over the throat that smooths these marks but rather the blow torch effect of powder combustion and extreme temperature that eventually causes the firecracking that we are all familiar with that rounds off those copper stripping sharp edges. Just my current thoughts, subject to change and enlightenment.
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  #63  
Old 07-08-2018, 10:03 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
All good , but my question was referring to polishing a chamber, not lengthening a throat or cleaning up the leade . AFIK , a chamber is a chamber and ends pretty much at the case mouth. It has specific SAAMI or custom specs peculiar to each different cartridge. The throat and leade are actually different operations that can have arbitrary dimensions or angles and are actually part of the bore. Apart from that, I believe the bullet does contact the leade as it enters the bore (thus the angle) and after it crosses the threshold of the freebore dimension ( throat.) If I'm wrong about all this, I'm sure I will be corrected in short order.
What do you suggest regarding chamber polishing .. good idea, or not so good ?
If a chamber is cut by a competent gunsmith with a sharp reamer here should be no need to polish the chamber as you suggest. In fact it is considered by some to be desirable not to have an over polished barrel and minimal case taper so that the brass momentarily clings to the chamber reducing bolt thrust (P.O. Ackley among others). I believe this to be true when pressures exceed Saami specifications but not necessarily that important if Saami Pressures are adhered to.

Contrary to what you believe the leade and throat are part of the chamber and are the same on all Sammi Speced chambers. If they or the neck area are changed, as in the drawing 260 Rem posted, it is not a saami speced cartridge but a custom chamber. As the leade (freebore) is larger in diameter than the bullet diameter the bullet should not contact the chamber until it reaches the lands which are just past the conical throat. Of course there could be enough contact between the bullet and leade (freebore) to cause copper transfer if the bullet runout is excessive. Here is a link to a post with picture that may help : http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=89.0
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  #64  
Old 07-08-2018, 10:57 AM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
HW223 - IMO SBR practices are very relevant because they involve squeezing every bit of consistency out of a barrel that is possible... by keeping the barrel free of copper and carbon fouling.
If there is interested start another thread about break in and cleaning of custom or after market barrels and I’d be happy to discuss it , factory barrels are high production with an emphasis on speed and cost vs what the market will tolerate for quality , and everything we do to “custom “ barrels probably would to little to help , there are exceptions but in the big picture they are rare , apples and oranges,
Rough chambers are bad news , iclund is correct about a good smith and a sharp reamer will produce a good chamber .
How ever we have tested chambers up to a 2500 grit finish (polished ) and had non of the issues claimed ,problem is most people will wreck a chamber polishing if there not careful ,it’s easy to make the chamber big at the back if you get aggressive ,
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  #65  
Old 07-08-2018, 01:18 PM
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Thanks HW223 - new thread posted. Look forward to the info.
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  #66  
Old 07-08-2018, 02:32 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
If there is interested start another thread about break in and cleaning of custom or after market barrels and I’d be happy to discuss it , factory barrels are high production with an emphasis on speed and cost vs what the market will tolerate for quality , and everything we do to “custom “ barrels probably would to little to help , there are exceptions but in the big picture they are rare , apples and oranges,
Rough chambers are bad news , iclund is correct about a good smith and a sharp reamer will produce a good chamber .
How ever we have tested chambers up to a 2500 grit finish (polished ) and had non of the issues claimed ,problem is most people will wreck a chamber polishing if there not careful ,it’s easy to make the chamber big at the back if you get aggressive ,
Good point! Here is an example if a new Krieger barrel with a chamber wrecked by the smith that chambered it:

Brass fired in good chamber that was specked 0.374" at the base datum measures just under 0.374":
[IMG][/IMG]

Brass fired in chamber that was polished out to 0.377" or 0.003" over spec. ahead of the base datum:
[IMG][/IMG]

Full Length sized to just under 0.373", at the base datum, showing area where the 0.004" bulge was created by polishing out the base of the chamber.
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #67  
Old 07-08-2018, 03:02 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
If there is interested start another thread about break in and cleaning of custom or after market barrels and I’d be happy to discuss it , factory barrels are high production with an emphasis on speed and cost vs what the market will tolerate for quality , and everything we do to “custom “ barrels probably would to little to help , there are exceptions but in the big picture they are rare , apples and oranges,
Rough chambers are bad news , iclund is correct about a good smith and a sharp reamer will produce a good chamber .
How ever we have tested chambers up to a 2500 grit finish (polished ) and had non of the issues claimed ,problem is most people will wreck a chamber polishing if there not careful ,it’s easy to make the chamber big at the back if you get aggressive ,
This thread is about an aftermarket barrel.
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  #68  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:52 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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The BI procedure outlined by HW223 confirms my conviction that the process is of real value. Of particular interest is the use of a bore scope to determine exactly what is happening...especially during those first few shots...where failure to remove a copper deposit means that the underlying “issue” may not be addressed.
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  #69  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
The BI procedure outlined by HW223 confirms my conviction that the process is of real value. Of particular interest is the use of a bore scope to determine exactly what is happening...especially during those first few shots...where failure to remove a copper deposit means that the underlying “issue” may not be addressed.
I see your other thread produced stellar results. I’m just wondering how I get less than ZERO copper fouling in my bore?
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  #70  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:34 AM
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If your looking in the barrel with a bore scope and have zero copper that is excellent , harder to achieve than people think , can’t tell by looking at patches. Like I said what we do in srb is not relevant to most , we are looking to agg in the mid to high ones ,need to eliminate all causes stray bullets
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  #71  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:00 AM
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Like I said what we do in srb is not relevant to most , we are looking to agg in the mid to high ones ,need to eliminate all causes stray bullets
And unfortunately people can’t get this through their thick skulls.
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  #72  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:14 PM
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That is what I have seen with every benchmark barrel I have ever chambered. The slightest amount of copper after the first 20 rounds. Give it a good clean and pretty much zero copper from then on out.
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  #73  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:45 PM
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HW223 - I think most shooters would benefit from emulating practices illustrated in the BR playbook whether it be BI routine, bag set-up, trigger control....etc. Don't think I ever ran into a shooter that wasn't interested in upping their game. When I started shooting at paper I thought 3 shot groups of 1.5" @100m were decent ...but when I saw others doing better, I started watching, asking questions and getting tips ...especially from the shooters that demonstrated they knew what they were doing by posting good groups.
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  #74  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
HW223 - I think most shooters would benefit from emulating practices illustrated in the BR playbook whether it be BI routine, bag set-up, trigger control....etc. Don't think I ever ran into a shooter that wasn't interested in upping their game. When I started shooting at paper I thought 3 shot groups of 1.5" @100m were decent ...but when I saw others doing better, I started watching, asking questions and getting tips ...especially from the shooters that demonstrated they knew what they were doing by posting good groups.
I agree in theory but I’m not sure it plays out in the real world , eg , east/west St. Louis , the guy in 90th place in the two gun ( two days of shooting 100-200 yards , in the wind and rain ) shot a .3596 grand ,I’m not sure someone happy with a 1 moa rifle can relate to it , mean while the guy in 90th is at home trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it , All rifles can benifit from br tech but it’s a tough sell.
The internet is a big part of the problem , to many guys with all the answers that never Compete anywhere , like it or not how we find the best way is by competing against others who think they also have the best way, separates the bs from what really works pretty fast , that goes for any discipline
Not everyone wants to get the most from the rifle sometimes minute of gopher is enough
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  #75  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:33 AM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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Perfectly put, no insulting anyone, no put downs, just a fellow shooter with experience sharing his knowledge. This is what makes AO a good read, it’s to bad you have to wade through the garbage to get to it.

Last edited by Full Curl Earl; 07-11-2018 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Spell
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  #76  
Old 07-12-2018, 09:12 AM
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I agree in theory but I’m not sure it plays out in the real world , eg , east/west St. Louis , the guy in 90th place in the two gun ( two days of shooting 100-200 yards , in the wind and rain ) shot a .3596 grand ,I’m not sure someone happy with a 1 moa rifle can relate to it , mean while the guy in 90th is at home trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it , All rifles can benifit from br tech but it’s a tough sell.
The internet is a big part of the problem , to many guys with all the answers that never Compete anywhere , like it or not how we find the best way is by competing against others who think they also have the best way, separates the bs from what really works pretty fast , that goes for any discipline
Not everyone wants to get the most from the rifle sometimes minute of gopher is enough
I am convinced that more often than not that most rifles are "minute of gopher" accurate as opposed to "SBR accurate"
Warren Page did an article about actual accuracy requirements and parameters in the late 60's IIRC.
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  #77  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:39 AM
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I am convinced that more often than not that most rifles are "minute of gopher" accurate as opposed to "SBR accurate"
Warren Page did an article about actual accuracy requirements and parameters in the late 60's IIRC.
Cat
This is very true , parameters today are you need a rifle that is capable of a mid teen to high teen agg if you want a sniff at winning most days , doable for any good rifle but there is a process involved , lots of processes in the middle and back of the pack , as you get closer to the top the processes converge and it gets down to only , good news is it’s not a secret anyone can get the info because the best guys in the world will share
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  #78  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:03 PM
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Would this rifle be SBR competitive?

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  #79  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:36 PM
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Would this rifle be SBR competitive?

Not likely ... it looks a bit long. That is, if SBR is referring to AR's and Blackouts etc. with the short barrels.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:00 PM
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Find a class that it fits and compete , that’s the only way to find out
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:28 PM
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But it won’t compete. Even if I break in the barrel.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:01 PM
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But it won’t compete. Even if I break in the barrel.
It’s like racing , can’t get a time slip until you go to the track , until then it’s all just talk.
Good luck and good shooting with what ever you decide to do
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  #83  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:16 PM
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It’s like racing , can’t get a time slip until you go to the track , until then it’s all just talk.
Good luck and good shooting with what ever you decide to do
I’ve decided to just break hearts.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:27 PM
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I’ve decided to just break hearts.
?
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  #85  
Old 07-12-2018, 05:59 PM
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Would this rifle be SBR competitive?

I don't think so,but I lost my boat anchor the other day,so it might work for that ,specially if you never cleaned out the lead for extra weight.

Last edited by JD848; 07-12-2018 at 06:16 PM.
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  #86  
Old 07-12-2018, 06:14 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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I don't think so,but I lost my boat anchor the other day,so it might work for that ,special if you never cleaned out the lead for extra weight.
Let’s keep this thread on track please.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:40 PM
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?

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  #88  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:46 PM
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MUCH bigger then a gopher
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  #89  
Old 07-13-2018, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
HW223 - I think most shooters would benefit from emulating practices illustrated in the BR playbook whether it be BI routine, bag set-up, trigger control....etc. Don't think I ever ran into a shooter that wasn't interested in upping their game. When I started shooting at paper I thought 3 shot groups of 1.5" @100m were decent ...but when I saw others doing better, I started watching, asking questions and getting tips ...especially from the shooters that demonstrated they knew what they were doing by posting good groups.
I don't think it is apples to apples and many folks very competent feel the same. John Barsness is one that comes to mind.

I do not break in custom barrels anymore other than my shoot a bunch to get it going, clean it down to white patches (Wipeout is the favorite) and the get it dirty again and start load development. I have several very accurate and consistent rifles that behave this way after that treatment.

I'm not an SBR shooter, but I did read about them once.
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  #90  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:45 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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To say that my barrel needs breaking in because guys shooting benchrest break their barrels in is disingenuous at best. My wife doesn’t need formula 1 racing tires on the car so she is more efficient at getting groceries. Let’s face it. There is more to winning a formula 1 race than the tires, and driving a formula 1 racing car in town, not only increases the cost of groceries, it makes it more difficult to carry your groceries home.

That’s why I posted a picture of that rifle. We have people telling the world here that they need formula 1 racing tires on their SUV.
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