2013 Archery Mule deer going on Draw

[heartshot]

You can all thank your local outfitter!!

Outfitters are destroying hunting, turning hunting into big business. We will keep losing hunting opportunitys under the guise of wildlife management if we keep letting this continue.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

A mandatory survey would not be any more pricey than whats in place now.

With our online system, create a rule that you cannot apply in the next year's draw or buy a Wildlife Certificate without completing the survey (either online or in person). This would cause hunters to complete surveys, a heck of a lot more than what happens now.

Great idea Rack, I like it!

And they could always impose rifle permits, like bowhunting permits. That's if they needed more money for the survey, or to pay people to impose an facilitate it!

[KCL]

I think bow hunting for mule deer is overdue, the truth is nobody knows how many mule deer are being killed during bow season and there needs to be restrictions, it should be a separate draw like antelope and that would be fair. Now we just have to get rid of the joke landowner tags and we might actually have a half decent management system. Before everyone jumps all over me I am eligible for landowner tags but don't believe that just because someone owns a minimum of 160 acres of land that they should be able to kill a mule deer every year, these tags are abused big time.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

A mandatory survey would not be any more pricey than whats in place now.

With our online system, create a rule that you cannot apply in the next year's draw or buy a Wildlife Certificate without completing the survey (either online or in person). This would cause hunters to complete surveys, a heck of a lot more than what happens now.

The very same survey system occures in Idaho and has for many years.
If you dont fill it out you cant buy a licence next year

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by flyguyd

The very same survey system occures in Idaho and has for many years.
If you dont fill it out you cant buy a licence next year

Yep there are a couple States that seem to do it this way. Thats where my suggestion came from is it seems to work elsewhere so would work easily here with what I'd consider to be a low cost to run.

[walking buffalo]

Landowner tag priviledges are Not abused at the moment. However, since the government has removed any limits to the number of Landowner licences that can be issued for Mule deer, the potential for problems now exist.

Since my TF hat is still on, I'll explain why. There may be an internal push from certain people to increase Landowner tags until these licences become the majority of licences issued. The next step is to allow Landowner Licences to be transferred with compensation. "Open Spaces" all over again.

There are several wmus's where Landowner tags outnumber Draw tags. This should not be happening. The govenment should get back to the regulated 10% cap on Landowner licences based on Draw licences available.



Thanks for the report Dr. D!
BTW, I referred several patients to see you.


A compulsory survey could be a great management tool. A tool that is absolutely useless and irrelevant without updated game population surveys.

What is the point in having accurate harvest stats if we don't have an accurate game population survey?

Basically, by the end of the meeting SRD acknowledged there are SERIOUS problems with the harvest stats, but it is the only thing they have to go on.

To think that Wildlife Managers would intentionally use flawed data to further restrict hunting opportunities is dis-heartening. Another sad example of good people doing very poor work.

[trigger7mm]

Originally Posted by steve

A hard winter plus GROSS mis-management has led us to this.

This sums it up exactly.

[Rackmastr]

Great post WB.....so true about population data, etc.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by KCL

I think bow hunting for mule deer is overdue, the truth is nobody knows how many mule deer are being killed during bow season and there needs to be restrictions, it should be a separate draw like antelope and that would be fair. Now we just have to get rid of the joke landowner tags and we might actually have a half decent management system. Before everyone jumps all over me I am eligible for landowner tags but don't believe that just because someone owns a minimum of 160 acres of land that they should be able to kill a mule deer every year, these tags are abused big time.

if nobody knows how many mule deer are being harvested, would the correct answer be, let's get some factual information? Let's know the numbers. Then we can make educated decisions! Before we restrict more hunting access, and play into the hands of the people driving everything to be limited or none existent!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

if nobody knows how many mule deer are being harvested, would the correct answer be, let's get some factual information? Let's know the numbers. Then we can make educated decisions! Before we restrict more hunting access, and play into the hands of the people driving everything to be limited or none existent!

Potty....stop making so much sense!

The real answer is to knee-jerk a decision because you "suspect" that bow hunting is a major strain on the population....then get it on draw as fast as you can to help with the recovery.....statistics? factual information? real numbers? and an effective MANDATORY survey?.....those things have no place in this.....

LC

[pottymouth]

Srd alone can't be making this decision! There has to be another driving force as well behind all this? Any ideas? What organizations are supporting this? Who sits on the boards and panel of them?

Anyone know?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Srd alone can't be making this decision! There has to be another driving force as well behind all this? Any ideas? What organizations are supporting this? Who sits on the boards and panel of them?

Anyone know?

R.O.H.A.G.A.M.B.S.M?

(rifle only hunters against general achery mule buck slaying machines)

Is the only real explanation.....

LC

[DC72]

I understand the anger on this issue, losing hunting opportunities is never a popular thing but it seems to me this was a nessesary decision. Twenty years ago there was a handful of guys out there bowhunting with a stick and string and today there is hundreds of guys out there with some pretty deadly equipment, to me the times have changed so must the rules.

[curtisb]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

R.O.H.A.G.A.M.B.S.M?

(rifle only hunters against general achery mule buck slaying machines)

Is the only real explanation.....

LC

I like this!!! Probably the most logical non-factual info. in this whole thread.
haha.

(on another note, I do agree...)

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by DC72

I understand the anger on this issue, losing hunting opportunities is never a popular thing but it seems to me this was a nessesary decision. Twenty years ago there was a handful of guys out there bowhunting with a stick and string and today there is hundreds of guys out there with some pretty deadly equipment, to me the times have changed so must the rules.

Why is it a necessary decision? Because you have seen factual information or is it just an opinion you have?

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by DC72

I understand the anger on this issue, losing hunting opportunities is never a popular thing but it seems to me this was a nessesary decision. Twenty years ago there was a handful of guys out there bowhunting with a stick and string and today there is hundreds of guys out there with some pretty deadly equipment, to me the times have changed so must the rules.

Ya you bet times have changed, I have a gun that shoots 900 yards now and a bow that i feel good at shooting up to 60 yards. What exactly is your point?

[DC72]

Well that is my point, if its a draw species for rifle hunters why shouldnt it be for bow hunters?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by DC72

Well that is my point, if its a draw species for rifle hunters why shouldnt it be for bow hunters?

Because no matter what people want to think the success rate of general archery on mule deer is much lower than it is on rifle draw....part of the "game management" strategy involves hunter success rate....

LC

[DC72]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Why is it a necessary decision? Because you have seen factual information or is it just an opinion you have?

Just one mans opinion based on what I see see every fall. I cant speak for all of Alberta but the zones where i hunt needed a little control on the bowhunting of muledeer. Its not that im anti bowhunting, I bowhunt myself , I just feel that if its a draw species for one weapon it should be for all weapons

[stringer]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Srd alone can't be making this decision! There has to be another driving force as well behind all this? Any ideas? What organizations are supporting this? Who sits on the boards and panel of them?

Anyone know?

APOS and AFGA

[steve]

Originally Posted by stringer

APOS and AFGA

AFGA is supporting archery season going to draw?

Sorry havent been following this thread for health reasons.

[Pudelpointer]

The only way I would be okay with this proposal is if there is an "Archery Mule Deer" draw code like antelope.

We have had this arguement before many times. As I have suggested many times before: increased numbers of archery hunters does mean increased harvest, but not in a "linear" way. 50 bow hunters MAY take 5-10 deer, only a couple of which are likely to be mature bucks. A 100% increase in bow hunters means they are now taking 10-20 deer.

In some zones this is obviously becoming an issue, but not in most of the 100 zones. If this goes through, I predict all zones south of Edmonton and in the Peace will be on draw in 5 years.

Why is everyone (government, guides and rifle hunters) so hung up on 15%? If there are so many guys bow hunting, maybe the % should e changed to reflect that. Does anyone know how many bow permits were sold last year?

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Srd alone can't be making this decision!

It's ESRD now and yup it came from them alone. Haven't you noticed their trend of putting other general archery seasons on draw the past few years? Not really sure why anyone is surprised by this and why there was no out cry when it happened with elk and moose.

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

The only way I would be okay with this proposal is if there is an "Archery Mule Deer" draw code like antelope.

We have had this arguement before many times. As I have suggested many times before: increased numbers of archery hunters does mean increased harvest, but not in a "linear" way. 50 bow hunters MAY take 5-10 deer, only a couple of which are likely to be mature bucks. A 100% increase in bow hunters means they are now taking 10-20 deer.

In some zones this is obviously becoming an issue, but not in most of the 100 zones. If this goes through, I predict all zones south of Edmonton and in the Peace will be on draw in 5 years.

Why is everyone (government, guides and rifle hunters) so hung up on 15%? If there are so many guys bow hunting, maybe the % should e changed to reflect that. Does anyone know how many bow permits were sold last year?

This has all been covered already in this thread. 15.86% of hunters in Alberta buy bow hunting permits. That's where the number comes from.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

This has all been covered already in this thread. 15.86% of hunters in Alberta buy bow hunting permits. That's where the number comes from.

Ok...I am confused again (I know some days it isn't hard for me )

I thought you said the HARVEST had to hit 15% for things to hit draws.....

Are you now saying that once the permits sold hits 15%< of the total number of hunters things go on draw??

LC

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's ESRD now and yup it came from them alone. Haven't you noticed their trend of putting other general archery seasons on draw the past few years? Not really sure why anyone is surprised by this and why there was no out cry when it happened with elk and moose.

But there was a huge one with sheep! Slowly but surely we are losing our hunting oppoturnities, bit by bit, one piece at a time!

I'm writing my letters, who else is?

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Ok...I am confused again (I know some days it isn't hard for me )

I thought you said the HARVEST had to hit 15% for things to hit draws.....

Are you now saying that once the permits sold hits 15%< of the total number of hunters things go on draw??

LC

Try to follow along Lefty.

The 15% harvest cap was set as a result of the number/percentage of bow hunters. 15% of Alberta hunters are bow hunters so they are entitled to 15% of the harvest according to ESRD. When that 15% harvest cap is exceeeded, the WMU goes on draw. They've started the process already for the past two years with elk and moose and are now moving on to mule deer. There's nothing really new here, they are just catching up with some house keeping.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Ok...I am confused again (I know some days it isn't hard for me )

I thought you said the HARVEST had to hit 15% for things to hit draws.....

Are you now saying that once the permits sold hits 15%< of the total number of hunters things go on draw??

LC

It's the harvest LC, Srd has always allowed and compensated for 15 % of the harvest to be by bowhunters! They now claim by the VOLUNTARY survey they have, that those numbers are now being exceeded!

Basically they are saying all the cwd problems they had, didn't really exist, it the over harvesting done by bowhunters! So let's take more hunting away from the resident Albertan

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's ESRD now and yup it came from them alone. Haven't you noticed their trend of putting other general archery seasons on draw the past few years? Not really sure why anyone is surprised by this and why there was no out cry when it happened with elk and moose.

There was an outcry with moose.....I wasn't a member here then for you to hear my complaining

The problem is they make the decisions first and take no input....or they don't listen to the input.....

I understood the moose issue in several of the zones I archery hunted and was quite successful in.....the issue there was cow and bull were general. With other zones in the province moving to draw they should have NEVER had cow moose on general tags! What do they expect to happen when a zone within 2 hours of Edmonton has a general cow and bull moose season and then a bunch of other zones hit the draw. GUESS WHAT everyone flocks to the zones that are on general.....

I think I see what is going on now....conspiracy theory here.....they want it all on draw and they are whittling it all down one zone and one species at a time until there is complete and total control.....then they will institute a new pay to play system and hunting as we know it will change forever.....it already has in many ways.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Try to follow along Lefty.

The 15% harvest cap was set as a result of the number/percentage of bow hunters. 15% of Alberta hunters are bow hunters so they are entitled to 15% of the harvest according to ESRD. When that 15% harvest cap is exceeeded, the WMU goes on draw. They've started the process already for the past two years with elk and moose and are now moving on to mule deer. There's nothing really new here, they are just catching up with some house keeping.

LOL I get that TJ....I am not THAT dense lol.

What is this comment in reference to then?????

Originally Posted by sheephunter

This has all been covered already in this thread. 15.86% of hunters in Alberta buy bow hunting permits. That's where the number comes from.

Who cares how many bow hunting permits are sold as a percentage of total hunters? or were you just pointing out that 15.85% of hunters now purchase bowhunting permit?.....it just happens that BOTH number are at 15%???

(I can use large font too )
I think the numbers they are basing this change off of are a bunch of horse hoooey.....I don't think they are real or representative! A voluntary survey is only accurate to the point of who decides to VOLUNTARILY answer it.

LC