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  #61  
Old 03-03-2012, 06:38 AM
Cal Cal is offline
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Lol, if sport angling could eradicate a fish species then Sundance would have his nice little lake free of perch by now. As it is even in such a small ecosystem angling and even netting havnt gotten rid of the perch so good luck getting carp out of a river with some hooks and doughballs. Sounds like SRD realy dropped the ball on this one, having seen whats happened in other systems I can hardly understand how "monitering" would be your go to tactic when an ivasive species is found. Be pretty interested to see how much "monitering" even took place.
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  #62  
Old 03-03-2012, 07:36 AM
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sorry to burst bubbles, but once a fish species gets established in a system its IMPOSSIBLE to erradicate them. absoloutly nothing can be done now. no amount of whining/brainstorming/actions is going to change it....... time to move on and adapt to it. sucks, but this is the sad truth. we may be able to keep them at bay but they will always be here now....
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  #63  
Old 03-03-2012, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
I can think of 5 major river systems in alberta, we have a reasonable threat on the milk,asian carp. now we are in a serious possibility of losing. two more the SSR- RD.
dont forget the SSR is formed from the Oldman, and the Bow, both of which will be able to carry these fish as far as the dams. Oh well, maybe whoever introduced these carp were just trying to build up a new food source for all the snakeheads that are moving in wonder if they will both be classed as gamefish?
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  #64  
Old 03-03-2012, 08:35 AM
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Lol, if sport angling could eradicate a fish species then Sundance would have his nice little lake free of perch by now. As it is even in such a small ecosystem angling and even netting havnt gotten rid of the perch so good luck getting carp out of a river with some hooks and doughballs. Sounds like SRD realy dropped the ball on this one, having seen whats happened in other systems I can hardly understand how "monitering" would be your go to tactic when an ivasive species is found. Be pretty interested to see how much "monitering" even took place.
you know very little of carp, and it is very very simple to eradicate a species.look up the ebro,or the affect of nile perch on lake victoria. im not sure of the proper name but a river has a capacity for fish biomass change that artificially in the natives favor ie flood the system with various year classes of our natural cold water predators. it mite take a few years but our natural fish have the capacity to do the job if action is made quickly. given that it is probably to late, oh and walleye have been eradicated from some of our lakes by angling pressure and compatition with other native fish??
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  #65  
Old 03-03-2012, 08:36 AM
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dont forget the SSR is formed from the Oldman, and the Bow, both of which will be able to carry these fish as far as the dams. Oh well, maybe whoever introduced these carp were just trying to build up a new food source for all the snakeheads that are moving in wonder if they will both be classed as gamefish?
http://www.wid.net/adobe/WID_2010.pdf

This is the WID system.
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  #66  
Old 03-03-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pickrel pat View Post
sorry to burst bubbles, but once a fish species gets established in a system its IMPOSSIBLE to erradicate them. absoloutly nothing can be done now. no amount of whining/brainstorming/actions is going to change it....... time to move on and adapt to it. sucks, but this is the sad truth. we may be able to keep them at bay but they will always be here now....
http://www.hawaiiinvasivespecies.org...ps/prevention/

http://www.hawaiiinvasivespecies.org...ggroups/randt/


We need a plan for now and the future just like Hawaii for instance.

As for you note... this is likely true but only after they "get established" If the carp today are concentrated in a minor drainage then they are targets for extermination. If the first wave have a hard time adapting to the conditions in the Red Deer River they may disappear on their own without a constant replenishment from the drainage. Therefore can we with speed and determination remove the fish from the drainage...then a swift and extensive strike will save the Red Deer and Bow River. Is it worth it? I think yes.

Giving up is not an option until they are fully established in the Red Deer. IMHO.

Also if the WID is not prepared to stop the spread of Carp in their system...they should not operate in 2012. They should also pony up some money to help.

The Bow River pumps a ton of money into the local economy.
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  #67  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:06 AM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
http://www.hawaiiinvasivespecies.org...ps/prevention/

http://www.hawaiiinvasivespecies.org...ggroups/randt/


We need a plan for now and the future just like Hawaii for instance.

As for you note... this is likely true but only after they "get established" If the carp today are concentrated in a minor drainage then they are targets for extermination. If the first wave have a hard time adapting to the conditions in the Red Deer River they may disappear on their own without a constant replenishment from the drainage. Therefore can we with speed and determination remove the fish from the drainage...then a swift and extensive strike will save the Red Deer and Bow River. Is it worth it? I think yes.

Giving up is not an option until they are fully established in the Red Deer. IMHO.

Also if the WID is not prepared to stop the spread of Carp in their system...they should not operate in 2012. They should also pony up some money to help.

The Bow River pumps a ton of money into the local economy.
agreed..... however, in a river system fish disperse so fast, that by the time something is attempted to be done about it, its probably to late..... but yes an attempt should be made. lakes are more less "contained" and easier to deal with....... rivers, with all the other rivers and feeder creeks that they are connected to, (kind of a labernyth of waterways) would make it an impossible feat. from what i understand they are established already with growing numbers?
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  #68  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:15 AM
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agreed..... however, in a river system fish disperse so fast, that by the time something is attempted to be done about it, its probably to late..... but yes an attempt should be made. lakes are more less "contained" and easier to deal with....... rivers, with all the other rivers and feeder creeks that they are connected to, (kind of a labernyth of waterways) would make it an impossible feat. from what i understand they are established already with growing numbers?
I agree once a detailed assessment is done if that is indeed the case. If they are fully established in the Red Deer we are doomed now. It is too late and the Bow River is next.

If they are not fully established and the population is getting replenished from the Rosebud system...then I would rotenone the entire system and remove any trace of them in one sustained strike. I would not be bogged down in useless politics or regulations or environmental grandstanding. I would have a large contingent of workers decent...apply throughout. Target any body of water connected. Have potassium permanganate ready at the confluence with the Red Deer. Let them sink or swim in the Red Deer but STOP supplying the population with thousands of new recruits. Sometimes fish can not get established...often stocking occurs over successive years to establish walleye in a lake... Why? Because mother nature fights back to a degree. With that in mind...I hope we don't STUDY the crap out of this problem but rather act and act swiftly. It has been 4 years...surely an invasive species that could impact the whole Saskatchewan drainage is not something to ignore.
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  #69  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:22 AM
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should make all the "bass in alberta people" happy. another specie to fish in alberta.....
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  #70  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:42 AM
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im with sundance my methods may differ but our resolve is on the same page. carp have a small weakness, they congregate at spawning this allows a small window every year to net ,electro fish or introduction of natives prior to the spawn in the area the carp spawn in. release of multiple year class and multiple native species. this would flood the system with predators that prey on all year classes of the invasive fish including eggs.this along with european carp tactics would in my opinion reduce the numbers of spawning age fish hopefully to a point where they can no longer spread a change of regs ie:chumming, multiple lines and keep nets. in the affected areas would have significant results. this is what makes heroes victory is never certain those that chose to fight in the face of overwhelming odds are the men history remembers.
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  #71  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:47 AM
Winch101 Winch101 is offline
 
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Are snakeheads a type of fish.?

It never occured to me that Carp didnt exist here . They are in most large watersheds in Manitoba , NW Ont. and Saskatchewan .....They are in the SSK....Assiniboine R . Red river systems .
They are the preferred game fish of a lot of present day canadians .
Interesting fish , can be eaten without being cleaned ,filleted or gutted.
I have seen this with my own eyes on the banks of the beautiful Red R .
back in the homeland . Where the sport is pronounced Pishing
Made me apprehensive about letting the dog run loose..
There are carp in Travers so I assume all the way down from there.
I am kind of with PP. on this one ....chance of SRD action in an
election year is slim and none. So about 2015 this will be labelled a provincial disaster and a study will be commissioned .

The idea that this will provide a target for that segment of the population that poaches traditional game fish through ignorance or or inability to
grasp English is somewhat droll but not out of line....

Always glad to help.
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  #72  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:00 AM
greylynx greylynx is offline
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Is this issue actually a federal matter?
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  #73  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
im with sundance my methods may differ but our resolve is on the same page. carp have a small weakness, they congregate at spawning this allows a small window every year to net ,electro fish or introduction of natives prior to the spawn in the area the carp spawn in. release of multiple year class and multiple native species. this would flood the system with predators that prey on all year classes of the invasive fish including eggs.this along with european carp tactics would in my opinion reduce the numbers of spawning age fish hopefully to a point where they can no longer spread a change of regs ie:chumming, multiple lines and keep nets. in the affected areas would have significant results. this is what makes heroes victory is never certain those that chose to fight in the face of overwhelming odds are the men history remembers.
Adding predators does nothing to the end goal of eradication. Rotenone at spawning would.
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  #74  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:11 AM
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Are snakeheads a type of fish.?

It never occured to me that Carp didnt exist here . They are in most large watersheds in Manitoba , NW Ont. and Saskatchewan .....They are in the SSK....Assiniboine R . Red river systems .
They are the preferred game fish of a lot of present day canadians .
Interesting fish , can be eaten without being cleaned ,filleted or gutted.
I have seen this with my own eyes on the banks of the beautiful Red R .
back in the homeland . Where the sport is pronounced Pishing
Made me apprehensive about letting the dog run loose..
There are carp in Travers so I assume all the way down from there.
I am kind of with PP. on this one ....chance of SRD action in an
election year is slim and none. So about 2015 this will be labelled a provincial disaster and a study will be commissioned .

The idea that this will provide a target for that segment of the population that poaches traditional game fish through ignorance or or inability to
grasp English is somewhat droll but not out of line....

Always glad to help.


Introducing carp to the detriment of pike, walleye, whitefish, goldeye, sauger etc. You certainly confuse.

Don't mix up introduced Triploid Sterile Grass Carp as anything similar to a reproducing population of Prussian Carp.

Different black and white issues.

I don't think Saskatchewan wants Prussian carp impacting their fisheries either. And they are going to be there soon enough without action it is guaranteed.
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  #75  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:13 AM
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lots of carp in the quapelle reservoir in saskatchewan , are these those carp?
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  #76  
Old 03-03-2012, 12:17 PM
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lots of carp in the quapelle reservoir in saskatchewan , are these those carp?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carp

They are common carp. One of the top 100 worst invasive fish species in the world.
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  #77  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:35 PM
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Rotenone

"Water

Rotenone is highly toxic to fish: most values for the 96 hour LC50 (lethal concentration required to kill half the test organisms) for different fish species and for daphnids (water fleas) lie in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 mg/litre. If used as a piscicide, it may also cause a temporary decrease in numbers of other aquatic organisms.
There is considerable controversy over the use of rotenone to kill non-game fish in water body management areas. One study found that the practice has a substantially harmful effect on biodiversity, in which several populations of the native fish showed negligible signs of recovering stocks, while populations of all exotic species are up."


Not ridiculing anyone, but using poison will decimate everything in that watershed, it will not specifically work only on carp. Carp is a hearty fish, a true suvivor.

After talking about this with my dad today, he figures he caught about a dozen of different year classes of prussian carp from same location within a year. They've been around for more than a decade in Alberta that's for sure. They are now a part of the ecosystem. Sad to see, someone wasn't careful with their fishpond and forgot to warn authorities when things went wrong.
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  #78  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:05 PM
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[QUOTE=jeprli;1329709]Rotenone

"Water

Rotenone is highly toxic to fish: most values for the 96 hour LC50 (lethal concentration required to kill half the test organisms) for different fish species and for daphnids (water fleas) lie in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 mg/litre. If used as a piscicide, it may also cause a temporary decrease in numbers of other aquatic organisms.
There is considerable controversy over the use of rotenone to kill non-game fish in water body management areas. One study found that the practice has a substantially harmful effect on biodiversity, in which several populations of the native fish showed negligible signs of recovering stocks, while populations of all exotic species are up."

Excellent reply.

If there is a fish that will survive rotenone, I will bet it would be carp.

Rotenone also kills invertebrates, and that is also part of the bigger picture.
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  #79  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jeprli View Post
Good luck exterminating them, if they hit the flowing water as sundance states it's game over. They will spread, and they spread fast!
We can at least stop migrations by building more dams pronto, and solve some electricity generation problems at the same time.

Win win.

k
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  #80  
Old 03-03-2012, 06:20 PM
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[QUOTE=greylynx;1329858]
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Originally Posted by jeprli View Post
Rotenone

"Water

Rotenone is highly toxic to fish: most values for the 96 hour LC50 (lethal concentration required to kill half the test organisms) for different fish species and for daphnids (water fleas) lie in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 mg/litre. If used as a piscicide, it may also cause a temporary decrease in numbers of other aquatic organisms.
There is considerable controversy over the use of rotenone to kill non-game fish in water body management areas. One study found that the practice has a substantially harmful effect on biodiversity, in which several populations of the native fish showed negligible signs of recovering stocks, while populations of all exotic species are up."

Excellent reply.

If there is a fish that will survive rotenone, I will bet it would be carp.

Rotenone also kills invertebrates, and that is also part of the bigger picture.
Rotenone will kill all fish...but if it stops carp...then the natives will come back. You can even transplant some natives out of the system by collections...store in aerated tanks then redistribute. But they will come up from the Red Deer and Chestermere.

http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/docume...cal/SFC211.pdf

Crucian carp take a higher dose to kill for sure. They are a terrible addition to Alberta. The people that introduced them should be strung up and quartered. Evil vandals.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:28 PM
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When I was a kid waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when we used to visit friends in Great Falls mt. and they would shoot the carp in the Missouri river with bows equiped with reels attached.

Carp like to eat the scum off the top of ponds and such and that is why a lot of golf courses have them in their ponds. I put large gold fish in my pond every year and they for sure die off in the winter.

I can't see them in Serviceberry creek, I live not far from there and it is so shallow it would freeze solid.

Don't think our climate would support carp. Hope not anyway.
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  #82  
Old 03-03-2012, 07:39 PM
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When I was a kid waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when we used to visit friends in Great Falls mt. and they would shoot the carp in the Missouri river with bows equiped with reels attached.

Carp like to eat the scum off the top of ponds and such and that is why a lot of golf courses have them in their ponds. I put large gold fish in my pond every year and they for sure die off in the winter.

I can't see them in Serviceberry creek, I live not far from there and it is so shallow it would freeze solid.

Don't think our climate would support carp. Hope not anyway.
Facts are...they are overwintering...the population is growing...they have been here for at least 5 or more years doing just great. These are not orange goldfish. These are wild carp...very, very hardy and efficient competitors to our native fish.

They are spreading their range. Is it too late to do anything? We need to ask exactly what F&W knows and when they knew it and what their response was. Then we can make a better educated guess.

These are not 30 lb carp...they are smaller...you can't bow hunt this variety. You are likely thinking common carp or grass carp. Different species.

Your hopes are all dashed. They are not going away...at least without a strong push by F&W or an attempt at it.
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  #83  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:47 PM
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The fact is WID/EID had known about this problem for a very long time, i'm fairly sure f&w did too. Nothing was done about the problem from the start of it, i don't see why they should react now.
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  #84  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:08 PM
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I would take up BowFishing again if it comes my way. Now only if Channel Catfish would invade the NSR!!! And get Big like in the Red River !!! Ohhhhhh heaven
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  #85  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:31 PM
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These are not fish big enough to provide much of a resource. That's key. There's no win here. Google them, this won't lead to bowfishing.
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  #86  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:33 PM
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These are not fish big enough to provide much of a resource. That's key. There's no win here. Google them, this won't lead to bowfishing.
Why do you say this?
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  #87  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:36 PM
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[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;1329941]
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Originally Posted by greylynx View Post

Rotenone will kill all fish...but if it stops carp...then the natives will come back. You can even transplant some natives out of the system by collections...store in aerated tanks then redistribute. But they will come up from the Red Deer and Chestermere.

http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/docume...cal/SFC211.pdf

Crucian carp take a higher dose to kill for sure. They are a terrible addition to Alberta. The people that introduced them should be strung up and quartered. Evil vandals.
Could you clarify whether we are dealing with the Prussian or the Crucian carp. Your original post states Prussian, however this post states Crucian.

2 different species. The Prussian Carp grows twice as large as the Crucian..
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  #88  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:02 PM
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The fact is WID/EID had known about this problem for a very long time, i'm fairly sure f&w did too. Nothing was done about the problem from the start of it, i don't see why they should react now.
Because they are bad... We are not sure what they have done or consider doing.
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  #89  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:04 PM
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Why do you say this?
The bow fishing guys are after Common Carp and Grass Carp...these don't grow big enough at 6 lb for prussian and 3 lb for crucian. In their over crowding conditions...unlikely to attain full size unless they take off into a larger system. And who wants to say hi to 3 lb carp and goodbye to goldeye, mooneye, walleye and sauger...maybe even sturgeon and not to mention the brown trout fishery below Dixon and the potential for devastation in the Lower and Upper Bow River...

Then we are passing this problem downstream to Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

I wonder what these fish will do to the goldeye and walleye fishery in Lake Winnipeg?

Yikes

Last edited by Sundancefisher; 03-03-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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  #90  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:37 PM
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[QUOTE=BeeGuy;1330256]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post

Could you clarify whether we are dealing with the Prussian or the Crucian carp. Your original post states Prussian, however this post states Crucian.

2 different species. The Prussian Carp grows twice as large as the Crucian..
F&W is not sure. Genetics have not been done yet.

Crucian and Prussian are similar. Crucian juveniles don't have a black spot on the base of the tail. In the 2009 study...the photo has a good shot of a juvenile...with no spot. Therefore grows to 3 lbs.

I count 31 scales on a photo along the lateral line on the AOF photo. That puts it being a Prussian.

There is a strong chance there could be more than one species...we likely don't know.

Prussian seem to be more silver than Crucian. Crucian seem yellowier. Therefore based upon little info...I sway towards Prussian.

Last edited by Sundancefisher; 03-03-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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