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  #121  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:23 AM
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Miskosky would usually censor these threads; threads that shared his opinion awhile back.

http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.ca/arc...ts-mar-10.html
  #122  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:25 AM
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Says alot right there on what AO has turned into.
Only to you.. and a select few others
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  #123  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:28 AM
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Only to you.. and a select few others
You may be surprised on the numbers.
  #124  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:30 AM
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Oh we could talk numbers.. and you would be astonished.
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  #125  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:31 AM
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But hey back to the topic. We can post a who hates SG thread if people wish after. For now maybe someone will show some black bear numbers since they seem to feel that that is a significant cause and are calling BS on a huge study on the topic. So could you guys please post the actual factual info you have on black bear mortality on ungulates in our mountain WMU's and Parks.

Last edited by sheepguide; 10-12-2013 at 01:37 AM.
  #126  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:36 AM
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Oh we could talk numbers.. and you would be astonished.
Maybe maybe not. Lots of groups here have alot of varied opinions and im sure there are alot that would be negative towards me, lots would be negative towards Mods and lots would even be negative towards AO as a whole but we dont have statistics on everyones opinion so no need to even discus it.
  #127  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:44 AM
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  #128  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:48 AM
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A few Black bear numbers. Not super recent but show the huge drop in black bear numbers in park regions.

http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/W...lackBears.aspx
  #129  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:49 AM
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wanna discus the actual topic?
  #130  
Old 10-12-2013, 02:27 AM
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Black bear predadation is mainly on calves in the spring. While wolve are eating ungulates all year..... I'm sure in the spring and early summer black bears do kill significantly more calves than wolves but I wonder how that will shake out annually overall?

How often would a pack of 10 wolves make a substantial kill of a full grown moose to live?
Once per week? Once every 10 days? Once evey 2 weeks?
  #131  
Old 10-12-2013, 06:46 AM
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Black bear predadation is mainly on calves in the spring. While wolve are eating ungulates all year..... I'm sure in the spring and early summer black bears do kill significantly more calves than wolves but I wonder how that will shake out annually overall?

How often would a pack of 10 wolves make a substantial kill of a full grown moose to live?
Once per week? Once every 10 days? Once evey 2 weeks?
I have been led to believe that wolves at times will kill just to kill. True or false I do not know. Do the park wardens kill wolves in jasper and Banff? You would think they would.
I was told by a pilot that years back he was paid to chase sheep from Alberta into B.C. and back again.
  #132  
Old 10-12-2013, 08:32 AM
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Actually no im not a centrifuge hand if you really must know!! Good to see your with the times.

Here you want me to tell you exactly what I do and have done on rigs as it seems to be a huge deal to some!!!! Hope its a satisfactory career for you guys!!

1994 - 1995 Terreco Drilling Rig 3 Rough neck and Motors
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2010 - present Marquis/Alliance Energy Group On Site Drilling Fluid Engineer specializing in SAGD systems.

Ok, ok, a mud man. Still can't say with a straight face you babysit a rig.

I don't think your occupation makes your opinion any less valid. I also agree the wolf population (at least west of Caroline) has decimated the elk population and something should be done about it. That said I don't think blaming the trappers is a good place to start... or finish. If a trapper isn't trapping anything (using it as a recreational property) then srd should step in. If the trapper wants to catch (insert favorite animal here) that's his own business.
  #133  
Old 10-12-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by NativeHunter View Post
Miskosky would usually censor these threads; threads that shared his opinion awhile back.

http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.ca/arc...ts-mar-10.html
An interesting read!
I never realized that non-utilization of traplines was an actual fact.

Time to start taking note of the fur royalty receipts?
  #134  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:00 AM
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Ok, ok, a mud man. Still can't say with a straight face you babysit a rig.

I don't think your occupation makes your opinion any less valid. I also agree the wolf population (at least west of Caroline) has decimated the elk population and something should be done about it. That said I don't think blaming the trappers is a good place to start... or finish. If a trapper isn't trapping anything (using it as a recreational property) then srd should step in. If the trapper wants to catch (insert favorite animal here) that's his own business.

I agree for the most part. But trappers hold a very viable tool in wolf Managment. The only tools we can use at this time are hunting and trapping. And if one refuses to have any part in it as many trappers have out right said here or just arent using lines then SRD should also step in and say we need this tool and since you haven't been using the wolves off your line we are allowing them to be trapped by any resident trappers or do something to get trappers involved besides offering huge dollars. Incentives maybe but they shouldn't have to bribe someone who honestly owns no actual part of it. Then SRD needs to try and get more hunters involved as well the same way possibly through more bounties or altered seasons or possibly in some places access for this hunting.
  #135  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:07 AM
mark-edmonton mark-edmonton is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 1000yards View Post
Sorry,
It was my attempt at Sarcasm.
I could not last two days as a trapper.
Nothing but respect to those who can.
To try and compare a weekend hobby to a complete livelihood,
just doesn't work in my head.

How you make your living shouldn't be dictated by what a portion of the public would prefer you trap for.

My bad, I didn't pick up on the sarcasm!! I don't trap as a living. I work shift work but am still able to get to my line every 2-3 days. It's only 50km from my home.
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  #136  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_W View Post
Black bear predation is mainly on calves in the spring. While wolves are eating ungulates all year..... I'm sure in the spring and early summer black bears do kill significantly more calves than wolves but I wonder how that will shake out annually overall?

How often would a pack of 10 wolves make a substantial kill of a full grown moose to live?
Once per week? Once every 10 days? Once every 2 weeks?
Wolves prey almost exclusively on ungulates during the winter while over the summer they include other species such as Hare and Beaver in their diet.

Although the frequency of kills is highly variable, study's have been done that suggest a typical number of one or ungulates per week per pack.

SRDs Wolf Management Plan has this to say about frequency of kills.



I found this from the International Wolf Center very interesting.
I'm not sure how much truth there is to it.

Quote:
How many prey animals do wolves kill per year? Wolves depend on a variety of large ungulates (hoofed animals) for food. Although studies have been conducted in some areas to determine the actual number of prey killed each year, the results are estimates. For example, an estimate for deer ranges from 15 to 19 adult-sized deer per wolf per year. Given the 2008 estimate of 2922 wolves in Minnesota, for instance, that would equal 43,800 to 58,500 deer killed by wolves. In comparison, hunters killed approximately 260,000 deer in the 2007 deer harvest. Additionally, several thousand deer are killed during collisions with vehicles each year.
Most interesting to me is the claim that in this study wolves were estimated to have killed between 43,800 to 58,500 deer While hunters were estimated to have killed approximately 260,000 deer. And that doesn't account for Deer killed in collisions with vehicles.

That is part of the problem I have with these calls for Wolf culls.
I'm simply not convinced that Wolf predation is THE problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with anyone killing a Wolf for whatever reason. I've certainly done my best to kill as many as I could.

The problem I have is with misinformation being touted as good reason to kill anything.
And with the finger pointing, blame game some fools here like to play.

Few Blacks in Grizzly country!! Utter nonsense!!

One of the higher Black Bear densities in Alberta is the Sheep River area http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/W...lackBears.aspx according to SRD.


Do I think Wolf populations are too high in some areas now? Yes I do.
Do I think there needs to be a Wolf cull, no I don't.
Do I care if others want to kill wolves? No I don't
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  #137  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:11 AM
6.5swedeforelk 6.5swedeforelk is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
...someone will show some black bear numbers since they seem to feel that that is a significant cause ...
Not having read the elk depredation study (phone only) I would be interested in the method of tagging a kill eg: bear, wolf.

A newly dropped calf kill may leave no evidence other than an open cow?

BTW, if you check in the bear scat, you WILL find some in that the whitened hoof tips pass through not fully digested.
  #138  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
Wolves prey almost exclusively on ungulates during the winter while over the summer they include other species such as Hare and Beaver in their diet.

Although the frequency of kills is highly variable, study's have been done that suggest a typical number of one or ungulates per week per pack.

SRDs Wolf Management Plan has this to say about frequency of kills.



I found this from the International Wolf Center very interesting.
I'm not sure how much truth there is to it.

Most interesting to me is the claim that in this study wolves were estimated to have killed between 43,800 to 58,500 deer While hunters were estimated to have killed approximately 260,000 deer. And that doesn't account for Deer killed in collisions with vehicles.

That is part of the problem I have with these calls for Wolf culls.
I'm simply not convinced that Wolf predation is THE problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with anyone killing a Wolf for whatever reason. I've certainly done my best to kill as many as I could.

The problem I have is with misinformation being touted as good reason to kill anything.
And with the finger pointing, blame game some fools here like to play.

Few Blacks in Grizzly country!! Utter nonsense!!

One of the higher Black Bear densities in Alberta is the Sheep River area http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/W...lackBears.aspx according to SRD.


Do I think Wolf populations are too high in some areas now? Yes I do.
Do I think there needs to be a Wolf cull, no I don't.
Do I care if others want to kill wolves? No I don't
Actually your posts about Minnesota wolves targeting such high numbers of deer isnt really much of a surprise Keg? What else are they supposed to eat?

When their total elk population is basically counted from two herds (The Grygla herd and the Kittson herd) and total numbers for the state are less than many single herds in Alberta and pretty much under 100 head!

And Moose numbers are at such a huge decline that they have closed the entire hunting season to try and solve the issue on why the moose are dieing off.

So when large ungulate numbers arent there its natural that the largest targeted species in that state would be deer which is in far over abundance in the Eastern states.

Im sure in many areas wolves target huge numbers of deer here in Alberta. But since you know the country you would know that in places such as the YaHa deer numbers arent significant enough to have high wolf harvests of them. For sure deer are on the hit list but sure arent in the thousands out there!!

Last edited by sheepguide; 10-12-2013 at 10:45 AM.
  #139  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:40 AM
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Few Blacks in Grizzly country!! Utter nonsense!!
I love this.

How many black bears do all our sheep hunters see while hunting sheep? I guarantee if we did a poll it would be very very few. Wonder why that would be if there is such a good population in Grizz country?
Its pretty tough to argue with someone that has no time in the areas or knowledge on the topics.

Of course there is some overlap! But for the most part high alpine country that the largest percentage of Grizz inhabit there are very few black bears. Its a know fact of anyone that hunts these areas at all.
  #140  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk View Post
An interesting read!
I never realized that non-utilization of traplines was an actual fact.

Time to start taking note of the fur royalty receipts?
Oh it's a fact on some lines, no doubt about that.
And SRD is well aware of that.

Trapping used to be about making a living.
Because the returns are so low, these days, for most trappers, it's a hobby, nothing more.

You can't force people to work for nothing.

Some hot heads seem to think trapper work for SRD. That is simply not the case. Trappers are self employed.

It is up to each individual trapper to decide what he traps and how much he traps. Within the law of course.

If the money isn't there, and it isn't these days for most traplines, then that trapper will find other employment to supplement his trapping, or he will give up trapping altogether.

There are not a lot of jobs that fit well with trapping as a side income. And in many places no jobs at all that fit with trapping.

It's not nearly as simple as it seems to those who have never done it.

I figured it out one time that as a trapper I was making about half what a kid working in McDonald's would make for the time I put in.

There are a lot of factors that aren't apparent to those looking in from the outside. There is wild fluctuations in fur prices, there are weather factors.
There is the expense of fuel and equipment. There is animal populations fluctuations.

All these things and more must be taken into consideration when deciding what where and when to trap. If trappers did what some hunters expect them to do, most trappers would soon starve to death.
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  #141  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:53 AM
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My bad, I didn't pick up on the sarcasm!! I don't trap as a living. I work shift work but am still able to get to my line every 2-3 days. It's only 50km from my home.
No problem at all!
50km and you still get out every few days, thats pretty damn good!
If everyone that trapped suddenly said, Eff this, Im just gunna hunt once a year, when I want, for what I want, and other than that I'll take the easy way and just work in town, 5 years from now we would all be pooched.
Your kind ( Trappers) are a now built in heavily relied upon influence in our outdoors.

And I have never seen a trapper with a mansion, so you all seem to do it out of passion, and no, it isnt a charity, but it certainly is not a easy life.
Thanks for what you do for us,


Brad
  #142  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:58 AM
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Oh it's a fact on some lines, no doubt about that.
And SRD is well aware of that.

Trapping used to be about making a living.
Because the returns are so low, these days, for most trappers, it's a hobby, nothing more.

You can't force people to work for nothing.

Some hot heads seem to think trapper work for SRD. That is simply not the case. Trappers are self employed.

It is up to each individual trapper to decide what he traps and how much he traps. Within the law of course.

If the money isn't there, and it isn't these days for most traplines, then that trapper will find other employment to supplement his trapping, or he will give up trapping altogether.

There are not a lot of jobs that fit well with trapping as a side income. And in many places no jobs at all that fit with trapping.

It's not nearly as simple as it seems to those who have never done it.

I figured it out one time that as a trapper I was making about half what a kid working in McDonald's would make for the time I put in.

There are a lot of factors that aren't apparent to those looking in from the outside. There is wild fluctuations in fur prices, there are weather factors.
There is the expense of fuel and equipment. There is animal populations fluctuations.

All these things and more must be taken into consideration when deciding what where and when to trap. If trappers did what some hunters expect them to do, most trappers would soon starve to death.
Then if trappers arent trapping wolves due to the low return and high costs they should have no issues for SRD to do what ever they need to control the wolf population in times of over abundance and need. SRD should at anytime then be able to bring in people that do chose to trap wolves if they feel that that management tool needs to be utilized. But I could just imagine the out cry on that!!! They aren't our responsibility and we shouldn't have to do anything with them but dont you dare take our right away to not doing it!

Its a privileged for a trapper to have a line. Not a right as they seem to so often think so.
  #143  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:05 AM
6.5swedeforelk 6.5swedeforelk is offline
 
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Originally Posted by norwestalta View Post
... Do the park wardens kill wolves in jasper and Banff?
...

Rhetorical question? Sarcasm? Joke?
  #144  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:05 AM
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then if trappers arent trapping wolves due to the low return and high costs they should have no issues for srd to do what ever they need to control the wolf population in times of over abundance and need. Srd should at anytime then be able to bring in people that do chose to trap wolves if they feel that that management tool needs to be utilized. But i could just imagine the out cry on that!!! They aren't our responsibility and we shouldn't have to do anything with them but dont you dare take our right away to not doing it!

Its a privileged for a trapper to have a line. Not a right as they seem to so often think so.
^^^^^this^^^^^^
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  #145  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:14 AM
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I love this.

How many black bears do all our sheep hunters see while hunting sheep? I guarantee if we did a poll it would be very very few. Wonder why that would be if there is such a good population in Grizz country?
Its pretty tough to argue with someone that has no time in the areas or knowledge on the topics.

Of course there is some overlap! But for the most part high alpine country that the largest percentage of Grizz inhabit there are very few black bears. Its a know fact of anyone that hunts these areas at all.
I've only ever seen one in the alpine. We watched it for several days rooting around like a grizz. On the 4th or 5th day we watched a grizz do a stalk on him. At the last minute the black bear realized what was going down and barely escaped. One of the coolest outdoor experiences I've ever had !

I was talking with a F&W officer who had spent some time in the Ya Ha and he had witnessed a grizz who specialized on preying on new born elk. It would hit the open areas and check under every spruce tree where the calves were.

I know if they opened up a few gated oil patch roads it might increase the wolf mortality. Here's a pack that hung around a well operators truck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRxo-1JSz0Y

I see your point on the trapping issue. Maybe if we put a bounty on them it would give trappers more incentive to target wolves.
  #146  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:20 AM
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I've only ever seen one in the alpine. We watched it for several days rooting around like a grizz. On the 4th or 5th day we watched a grizz do a stalk on him. At the last minute the black bear realized what was going down and barely escaped. One of the coolest outdoor experiences I've ever had !

I was talking with a F&W officer who had spent some time in the Ya Ha and he had witnessed a grizz who specialized on preying on new born elk. It would hit the open areas and check under every spruce tree where the calves were.

I know if they opened up a few gated oil patch roads it might increase the wolf mortality. Here's a pack that hung around a well operators truck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRxo-1JSz0Y

I see your point on the trapping issue. Maybe if we put a bounty on them it would give trappers more incentive to target wolves.
For sure DW. Grizz are very hard on new borns and have a large impact as well. Definitely another issue in our west country that needs to be addressed.

As well ive with blacks ive seen very few. In northern BC in the huge tracks of grizz country we did harvest the odd black in grizz country but 9/10 times they were very large boars that were able to defend themselves.
  #147  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:21 AM
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Then if trappers arent trapping wolves due to the low return and high costs they should have no issues for SRD to do what ever they need to control the wolf population in times of over abundance and need. SRD should at anytime then be able to bring in people that do chose to trap wolves if they feel that that management tool needs to be utilized. But I could just imagine the out cry on that!!! They aren't our responsibility and we shouldn't have to do anything with them but dont you dare take our right away to not doing it!

Its a privileged for a trapper to have a line. Not a right as they seem to so often think so.
You are not doing yourself any favors here.

SRD can at any time use whatever tool, equipment or manpower they choose to do whatever they need to do on any crown land, trapline or not.
And I don't know a single trapper who has a problem with that.

What I see here is one hunter protesting against trappers, not trappers protesting against hunters or SRD.

Do not attribute to us what you would do.
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  #148  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:24 AM
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You are not doing yourself any favors here.

SRD can at any time use whatever tool, equipment or manpower they choose to do whatever they need to do on any crown land, trapline or not.
And I don't know a single trapper who has a problem with that.

What I see here is one hunter protesting against trappers, not trappers protesting against hunters or SRD.

Do not attribute to us what you would do.
And why am I not doing myself any favors??? Because I have an opinion on how wolves should be delt with that differs from yours?

Do you honestly believe trappers would sit back and watch SRD walk in with other trappers onto their lines to do wolf management? Come on Keg pull your head out of the sand.
  #149  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk View Post
...

Rhetorical question? Sarcasm? Joke?
Just a question. Seen wolves as well as sheep. After reading some of the posts on here there should be one or the other. Can't say I've seen lots of wolves there(only seen 2) but there is no shortage of sheep.
  #150  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:42 AM
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I see your point on the trapping issue. Maybe if we put a bounty on them it would give trappers more incentive to target wolves.
Bounties have been tried and in the end they didn't solve the problem.

And for the record, I don't know a single trapper who objected even though it meant a lot of wolves got killed by hunters instead of trappers.

The uneducated seem to think this can be solved just by getting lazy trappers off their butts.

I don't know anyone who works harder for their money then a trapper, except perhaps a farmer.

But I do know a number of trappers who went to work on the rigs and stayed because it was the easiest money they had ever made.
I was one of them to a degree.

I didn't totally leave trapping, but I did give up full time trapping in exchange for the easy money of the oilfield.

Maybe the solution is to pay trappers the same wages oilfield workers get.
Then everyone would want to be a trapper, and all trappers would be the hardest working guys on the planet.

Hey, I like that plan. Lets make trappers public employees.
Clearly some folks here already think we are public employees.

There could be trappers unions, trappers pension plans, trappers severance packages! Health benefits for trappers, government subsidized housing for trappers.

We could make trappers into wanna be postal workers.

That ought to work.
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