Trying to identify Nodwell CF60 brake parts.

[trackrig]

I'm trying to identify some brake parts for a Nodwell that I've just bought. It's a Canadair Flextrac CF60 - the same as a Nodwell RN60. It was made in 1977.

I've identified the steering master cylinder which is a Wagner Lockheed casting #FE21720 which is a Napa #M22231. The rebuild kit is Napa #146. What I can't identify is the slave cylinder on the rear end to operate the brake bands located inside of the rear end. The rear end model # is a T-16.

Also if anyone can identify the brake shoes in the rear in that would be appreciated also. Originally the T-16 came with two 3-pc shoes that form a band around the brake drum. I've been told, but haven't seen, that they later modified the brake shoes to a 2-pc band. I have seen the 1-pc band in pictures but haven't been able to identify it as to a mfg and P/N.

PICT0394.jpg

Thanks
Bill

[LKILR]

There used to be a place in Calgary called Tracked Vehicle Supply. They could help you. Or Diversified Equipment in Calgary used to be my go to place when I needed parts for my Nodwell 160.

[trackrig]

Thanks, TVSs and Diversified are one and the same under the name of Track Industries Ltd. Their parts Mgr Keith is very knowledgeable and they can supply them, but it will be up in the $500+ range. Napa should be well under $300 if I can get to a P/N they can work with.

Bill

[HyperMOA]

I'm not sure if either still exist, but Foremost and Track Industries sold parts and serviced them. Been a long time since I had to work on a Nodwell. Last time, was re-splicing a track in about 3 feet of gumbo mud. Good times.

[HyperMOA]

Likely that slave cylinder could be honed and reused. Then you just need to find some seals or a seal kit.

[trackrig]

Yes, when I can bring the rig home in the spring (it's about 300 miles away near Fairbanks which is at -30F at the moment) I'll take them off and I'm sure Napa can come up with the rebuild kit. I was trying to get ahead of the game and get two new ones and then rebuild the current ones for spares.

Bill

[grouse_hunter]

If you have the "VIN" for your Nodwell, you could contact the manufacturer in Calgary. They were able to find a 1974 machine for me. I had to speak to the shop foreman because the information is all in paper form.

Do you have any pictures of your rig? Do you think that it'll tackle muskeg better than a wheeled unit with flotation tires?

[trackrig]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

If you have the "VIN" for your Nodwell, you could contact the manufacturer in Calgary. They were able to find a 1974 machine for me. I had to speak to the shop foreman because the information is all in paper form.

Do you have any pictures of your rig? Do you think that it'll tackle muskeg better than a wheeled unit with flotation tires?

This is my larger Nodwell RN110. We're backed up to where our hanging pole is between two trees. They're getting ready to hook up the chain to the moose's horns to hang him for skinning.


This is the smaller CF60 I've just acquired. Wanted to go to the smaller rig so that it matches the rig my hunting partner has. It's also a lot easier to work on if you slip a track or you get it stuck. When I get it home this spring, the shack the former owner used on the rear will be coming off.


I do have the VIN #.

Yes, the track rigs do outperform the wheeled rigs in the serious mud. On the larger orange RN110, I've had mud come in the doors and the tracks seem to always be under water or under mud. We go in 30+ miles on what's called the Rex Trail. I will have to watch it a little more on which mud holes I take off down through the middle of with the smaller rig but I've used one of them in there before. Everything has advantages and disadvantages. DNR outlawed the large wheeled rigs because they were always stuck and tore up the trail too much.

Bill

[grouse_hunter]

Thank you for the pictures and info! Both of the vehicles look pretty damn robust.
Since you have the VIN call Foremost Industries 1-866-927-2787 is their vehicle parts/tech assistance number.
For a while now, I've been lusting after a locally available unit. Articulating wheeled Nodwell FN100TT with a 6 cylinder Detroit Diesel and 5 speed Allison tranny. The tire cost alone is dissuading me from purchasing it.

Do you have any experience with these types of vehicles up in Alaska? Wouldn't low tire pressure give it enough surface area to float on top of the muskeg?

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Likely that slave cylinder could be honed and reused. Then you just need to find some seals or a seal kit.

Exactly, the pic of the cyl would indicate it as cast iron, a wheel cylinder " Hone" will take out the rust and make for a good inner seal( cup) surface , get a measurement of the clean improved/honed cylinder , and then locate a brake shop/truck shop to get the new cups ,

As for the brake shoes, or band brake material that is also available and for a slow speed machine as that, the replacement shoe material can be drilled and riveted by someone willing to invest the time and patience ,

[birdee]

or you could get the shoes relined
http://edbrakeclutch.ca/service/reline/
they could help you with the cyl cups if you knew the cyl bore.

[trackrig]

Grouse Hunter,

I thought I'd seen all of the Nodwell / Foremost wheeled rigs, but I hadn't seen this one. I've used Delta 2's with 3,000 gal tanks to haul diesel fuel into small villages and some mining operations. There was a cat trail into them, but in the summer it was way too muddy for that type of load. In the winter it was often too cold and there was a long uphill climb that was snowed in too much and often too slippery. Fortunately the uphill grade was south facing and the snow would melt rather early before the rest of the trail down in the valleys thawed out into more than a couple inches of mud.

We were never out of the tundra with the rigs, but I would be very hesitant. If we got stuck, we had two more Deltas to hook up to pull the stuck one out with.

I've stuck two larger Nodwells, both a 110 and a 160. The difference between a larger track rig and your rig is the ground pressure. Often Nodwells in the bad mud, will do a lot of track spinning, because the actual ground pressure per square inch is so low that they're not putting enough pressure down in the mud to grab - they're not really stuck, they're just sitting there on top of it not grabbing traction. A wheeled unit, even with those large Goodyear terra tires on it will dig down and down until they either find traction or they're sitting on the frame rails.

We had a Nodwell 160 down so far in the water in a mud hole, that my brother floated the extra fuel drums off of the back of it. Then, and it took him two days to get out. He got out with a 5-ton com-a-long pulling a 25,000 pound track rig. He'd tighten up the com-a-long, then hop in the Nodwell and make about a inch or two and then repeated it and repeated it for two days. The Nodwell wasn't high centered badly, it just couldn't get any traction to come up out of the mudhole on the far side. As long as there was a slight pressure pulling it forward it would move that inch or two until the com-a-long went slack. He was by himself so there was no one to keep cranking on the com-a-long.

I also didn't have much sympathy for him because he was to have put the tracks back on my Nodwell before he went in there. Then he could have ridden the quad out 20 miles to the highway, gotten my Nodwell and a second person to pull him out. I thought it was rather funny.

So on the wheeled rig, it will go a lot of places. If you're talking high tundra where there's solid gravel under it down a foot or two, then you'll probably be OK. But if you have to travel on or cross normal tundra or areas where even small streams are out wondering across the tundra, then stay far away with this rig.

In the orange 110 above, there's a large two mile wide swampy tundra field you have to cross one place. I saw the results of two Bombardier Muskegs being stuck in there for a week. On the far side of it once, I broke through the top tundra layer and before I could stop my front bumper was under the muskeg - that's 4' down. Luckily because I hadn't done any spinning, I eased it into reverse and came right out of it. A wheeled rig would still be sitting there.

The wheeled rig doesn't have a winch, not that there's a tree within miles to winch to out there larger than six feet, but you'll need a winch when you find another rig that can get out to where you're at.

It has large tires for flotation, but you have to look at how much the machine weighs. A standard new Ford F250 diesel truck now weighs 8,000 to 8,500 pounds. Compare that to your rig - just look at the weight of the wheels, rims, , heavy steel frame rails, engine, the Allison, the engine, those axles, and how much fuel you'll have on it plus whatever gear you throw on it. It has to weigh over 20,000 pounds.

When you get it stuck, not IF you get it stuck, but when, how are you going to get it out? You're not going to get some 20 ton hydraulic jacks under it and you're certainly not going to lift it with a Handy Man or Hi-Lift jack. They can barely handle what a full sized truck weighs now days. You're going to need the largest Bubba Rope and another rig or two of comparable size to get you out.

Tires - Yes they're large and provide a lot of flotation but the tread is half gone. Some people will say this good because when you get into a bad mud, without a lot of tread, they won't dig you down too far too quickly. With full tread on the tires, if you aren't careful, they'll grip so much mud they'll dig a hole real quick in soft tundra putting you right down on the frame rails.

One thing we learned about tires real quick was to watch which tire you matched what tire on the other side of the axle. As I said there was a long uphill grade several miles long. When the sun had melted the snow off of it, the traction was great, almost too good. With 21,000 pounds of fuel plus the weight of the tank, tools, the rig's fuel and other stuff, there wasn't any wheel spin due to the good traction. We go a flat and put on a tire with almost new tread - why not put on a new tire?

After we did that we started loosing bearings in that axle. It took a little while for it to dawn on me. Look at how large those tires are and what the circumference of that large of tire has to be. I forget now what the differences in circumference was between a new tire and a well used tire was, but it was enough that when the tires couldn't slip, then differences were binding up the axle taking out the bearings. Take those tires off and change axle and differential bearings - lots of fun. Luckily we didn't loose any differentials. When it did dawn on me and we matched up some tires of equal wear, we didn't have any more bearing problems. So if you get another tire either get one that matches your existing tire or get two that match.

These rigs were primarily meant for hauling large loads on frozen tundra or semi-muddy trails where a truck couldn't go, but you wanted something faster than a track rig. That's why Nodwell / Foremost built large rigs of equal weight hauling capacity in both wheeled and tracked rigs.

At one time out hunting we had five Nodwells in camp. If you got stuck, while a pain, it was no big deal, there were four more rigs within ten miles of you.



For the last five years I've been the only Nodwell out there, so it makes for an uncomfortable situation. Now that we'll have two rigs, I'm feeling a lot better. So, before you buy this rig, figure out how you're going to get it unstuck. Also, how are you going to haul it to where you want to use it. I had to buy a small tractor and lowboy to haul my 110 Nodwell.

I'd highly recommend you find a Nodwell RN60, FN60 or CF60 or a Go Trac 800 or 1000, or a Bombardier Muskeg and then find a partner with an equal rig.

Have fun and don't get stuck..........

Bill

[grouse_hunter]

Thank you trackrig!
I couldn't have wished for a more comprehensive reply! I intend to travel solo, winches on both ends of a unit are a must. Most of the terrain which I intend to traverse is located within the boreal forest. There are trees, and I intend to have a ground anchor with me for the more unpleasant situations.
The machine which I linked above needs to be completely rebuilt. The tires are cracking from sitting for an extended period of time. The cab is shot. The only positive is that the frame is fully intact. And that's my appraisal from a couple of hours of visually inspecting it. I'd imagine that an X-ray would show otherwise. That unit was used to bring fuel to reserves up in North West Territories. It has a 1200 gal fuel tank between the rear tires and below the flat deck.
I'll follow your advice and concentrate on tracked units. I already have a vehicle and a trailer capable of moving a smaller unit.
I've come to realize that there isn't a vehicle which can "do it all". Even a Unimog, set up for off road work wouldn't be able to get me where I want to go.
Thank you again!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by trackrig

I'd highly recommend you find a Nodwell RN60, FN60 or CF60 or a Go Trac 800 or 1000, or a Bombardier Muskeg and then find a partner with an equal rig.

Have fun and don't get stuck..........

Bill

You ever notice that if you break down, it's always when you are floor mat deep in swamp.

Nodwells will make or break you. Changing a tire is something you have to experience to understand and changing a transmission when you're sitting in two feet of mud is as close to purgatory as is possible on earth.


I told you I ran FN75s but I was looking at some old photos I took back then and the machines I ran were FN110s.

They were much older then the rig you just bought so it's unlikely that any of the parts would be comparable and I wouldn't doubt they are no longer based on Ford power trains.

I am still friends with one of the owners of Warnke Drilling so I'll ask him if he has any ideas and I'll get back to you.

[KegRiver]

I talked to Gerrett's business partner, he says they sold all the seismic equipment years ago but he thinks there are some Nodwell parts still lying around. He said to talk to Gerrett.

I'm thinking that Gerrett must be getting pretty long of tooth these days. I'm thinking that his son Alan is probibly the one in charge now and would be the guy to talk to. Either way, a call to Warnke Drilling in Wetaskiwin should put you in touch with the right guy.

His only other comment was that Tracked Vehical Supply in Calgary is your best bet.

I'm not giving up yet. I posted the question on a twin track forum I'm part of, we'll see where that leads.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by trackrig

I'm trying to identify some brake parts for a Nodwell that I've just bought. It's a Canadair Flextrac CF60 - the same as a Nodwell RN60. It was made in 1977.

I've identified the steering master cylinder which is a Wagner Lockheed casting #FE21720 which is a Napa #M22231. The rebuild kit is Napa #146. What I can't identify is the slave cylinder on the rear end to operate the brake bands located inside of the rear end. The rear end model # is a T-16.

Also if anyone can identify the brake shoes in the rear in that would be appreciated also. Originally the T-16 came with two 3-pc shoes that form a band around the brake drum. I've been told, but haven't seen, that they later modified the brake shoes to a 2-pc band. I have seen the 1-pc band in pictures but haven't been able to identify it as to a mfg and P/N.

Attachment 129491

Thanks
Bill

As mentioned above, try tracked vehicle in Calgary (used to deal with Garth I believe, but that was a long time ago). No experience with the T16, lot's with the OC15 and the M24 though. M24 used air for steering and was a bulletproof diff. Was also used in tanks. Ran a FN 320 up in the arctic one winter with a massive air drill on it. 600 hp and hydrostatic, that was a fun machine.

[KegRiver]

The guys on the twin track forum say to take your slave cylinder to Edmonton Brake and Clutch.
They say they can match up any cylinder if you take it in to them.

[The moose]

Hey Guys,

Call Keith at track Industries (403) 255-1101, he will set you up if there is a chance to get these parts and this is coming from track industries competitor in Calgary.

T-16's have become very difficult to get parts for. We gave any stock we had in the T-16 to Keith a few years ago but still do have a Complete differential in stock if you find the need arises( hopefully not)

The M24 and OC-15 parts a much more readily available but even them are coming to the end of their life cycle.

Grouse, I would definitely focus more on finding a tracked vehicle then any wheeled unit, They just wont perform as well in muskeg as a tracked vehicle. Personally I would look for something with a OC-15 in it then the T-16. The OC-15 is a heavier duty diff and has stood up much better over time and we still fabricate gears and pinions to refurbish these units. That being said understand parts for any of the older differentials has become expensive.

If any one is looking for belting, Bars , tires , axles or anything else give us a call @ ALLTRACK (403)250-8856 or our website http://www.all-track.ca/ and we will try to help ya out.

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by The moose

Grouse, I would definitely focus more on finding a tracked vehicle then any wheeled unit, They just wont perform as well in muskeg as a tracked vehicle. Personally I would look for something with a OC-15 in it then the T-16. The OC-15 is a heavier duty diff and has stood up much better over time and we still fabricate gears and pinions to refurbish these units. That being said understand parts for any of the older differentials has become expensive.

Thank you for the advice! I found a 1973 FN60 close to home. The unit has steering problems, however the price is fair. Any experience with that particular model? It seems to be small enough to get into the trees. Just over 18' long and 8' wide.

[trackrig]

Originally Posted by The moose
Grouse, I would definitely focus more on finding a tracked vehicle then any wheeled unit, They just wont perform as well in muskeg as a tracked vehicle. Personally I would look for something with a OC-15 in it then the T-16. The OC-15 is a heavier duty diff and has stood up much better over time and we still fabricate gears and pinions to refurbish these units. That being said understand parts for any of the older differentials has become expensive.

Posted by Grouse Hunter
Thank you for the advice! I found a 1973 FN60 close to home. The unit has steering problems, however the price is fair. Any experience with that particular model? It seems to be small enough to get into the trees. Just over 18' long and 8' wide.

I agree with Moose, except for the reasons I'm switching from an RN110 with an OC15 to to a CF60 with a T-16 rear end.
- My RN110 weighs 22 - 23,000# with required me to also go buy a single axle tractor and a lowboy trailer. That not only costs money buy there's also the yearly insurance bills.
- You'll need an over-width permit signage to move an RN110, but no pilot cars.
- If you slip a track on an RN110 (have done it twice during the learning process) it's almost impossible for the operator to put it back on themselves without a second RN110. I've seen it take four guys four days to put a track back on an RN110 (not mine) without a second Nodwell. And then it's a matter of having enough jacks, dunnage and com-a-longs with you. The last time I slipped one, because we had a second Nodwell, I was going down the trail 4hr 15min later, but that's also because I knew exactly what to do from previous experience.
- Most of the RN110s have diesels, not all but most. And then up here, they're either Detroit 453s or 653s. They're very loud and I'm tired of them.
- Some have straight Ford 6-cyl engines in them, they're fine for some mud and frozen ground, but not mile after mile of mud where we hunt. My first Nodwell, an RN110B, an ex-Army rig, had a Ford 292 V-8 in it. All and all, not a bad engine once I changed out the generator for an alternator. Even though it was an RN110, it was one of the first generation 110s and a lot lighter, about 18,000#.
The OC or OE-15 rear ends are more plentiful. I know of where there are five or six of them, but I haven't found a T-16 yet - but then I don't want to pay dealer prices for one just to have a spare sitting around.

- The CF60, at 10,500# can be hauled behind a heavy duty pick-up truck. I plan on keeping my little single axle International tractor to haul it using a Fleming fifth wheel equipment trailer I have that's too small for the RN110. I'll sell the lowboy.
- No over-width permit or signage required.
- The CF60 has a Ford 391 V-8 in it which is very quiet and more than enouigh power for the CF60. Very nice to operate. If anything goes bad with it, a gas engine is cheaper to either rebuild or replace than a diesel. Also physically easier.

When it comes to which rear end is stronger, I'm not sure. My RN110 has been out with well over 12,000# on the back end and has not had a problem. I've seen ones that have had problems but they stemmed from the owner not knowing what he was doing - the brass pins in the planetaries were shot causing other parts to jam up.

The CF60 I just got did have problems at one time with a drive planetary, but the owner that had the problem is now dead and I can't run down who his hunting partners were. Wish I could find out the whole story.

If you were working the track rig commercially, I'd say get an RN110, preferably with the T24 rear end. In this case, I think the 60 is better suited for your hunting. One of the secrets to owning a Nodwell for hunting, is to always be on the look out for parts. A dealer needs to make money, but hunting doesn't justify buying new parts. I look at it this way - I'm going to waste money on something, it might as well be my Nodwell for hunting..........

Now here's a good compromise. Get a Go Trac 1000. It's basically a Nodwell 60 on steroids. It's the same size as a 60, but it has heavier running gear under it and it's using the OE-15 rear end.

Grouse - on the 60 you found, you said it's a 1973. If that's the case it should have the planetary gear reduction units at the ends of the axles where the drive sprockets are? The earlier 60 versions don't. I've stayed away from them because of all the heavy mud we're constantly end and I didn't know if they would have the power.

Tell us more about it and post a couple of pictures - you must have taken some when you looked at it.

Bill

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by trackrig

Grouse - on the 60 you found, you said it's a 1973. If that's the case it should have the planetary gear reduction units at the ends of the axles where the drive sprockets are? The earlier 60 versions don't. I've stayed away from them because of all the heavy mud we're constantly end and I didn't know if they would have the power.

Tell us more about it and post a couple of pictures - you must have taken some when you looked at it.

Thank you for a bunch of information again, trackrig! I haven't looked at the unit yet. I found it online and it's close to home. Nodwell FN60
Are the cabs made from steel? Is the ROPS really necessary? I'd imagine that the machine would slide before it rolled. Am I correct?

[justletmehunt]

Hey Trackrig.
I'm not sure if you've found the parts you're looking for but you can also try the Foremost parts department (403-295-5800) ask for Steve Pfaff.

[trackrig]

Originally Posted by justletmehunt

Hey Trackrig.
I'm not sure if you've found the parts you're looking for but you can also try the Foremost parts department (403-295-5800) ask for Steve Pfaff.

Thanks, just finishing up my parts list, will probably call them tomorrow.

Bill

[trackrig]

Grouse Hunter,

That FN60 at Machinery Mikes was sold back mid summer. He bought three of them and sold two. The last one had steering problems. I talked to him, He said it went forward and backwards with no problems or noise, but didn't like to steer.

I think it just needed to have the brake shoes adjusted, maybe new ones. There's the steering brake master cylinders in the cab and the slave cylinder on the rear end - the master cylinder may have just needed brake fluid. Then in the rear end, you reach into it with a 9/16" socket welded to an extension so it can't fall off and then tighten the brake shoes a little bit at time.

The shoes could need changing due to wear and or someone filled the rear end with gear lube and it put a glaze on the shoes so they won't grab anymore. The brake shoes are inside of the oil bath rear end.

Anyways, he got it working I guess, though he was offering a good discount if you took it as is where is since neither he or is mechanics had ever messed with a Nodwell rear end. It had a 353 Detroit in it so I wasn't interested due to the noise.

No the large roll cage isn't needed but I'm sure it was there due to the commercial contracts the company had that owned it. Have only seen one roll and that was when they were offloading it from an icy trailer with a steel deck. It slipped and went over the side.......

Keep looking.

Bill

[grouse_hunter]

So much for a unit close to home! Too bad that some merchants don't keep their listings current. I'll keep my eyes open. Maybe something will come through Ritchie Bros or Iron Planet auctions. The two 110s at Iron Planet are priced a bit too high for my liking. Yet again, thank you for being willing to share your knowledge on the subject!

[MountainTi]

A 110 will go anywhere........well almost

sunk nodwell 004.jpg

sunk nodwell 005.jpg

sunk nodwell 013.jpg

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

A 110 will go anywhere........well almost

Wow. That's the exact situation that I fear, considering that the plan is to travel solo. My plan is to always drive on the edge of the mud holes, hopefully close to some trees or more solid ground to assist with recovery. I'd imagine that guys running company equipment don't really care if they get stuck or not.
Was the unit in the pictures left until the ground froze? How was it recovered?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

Wow. That's the exact situation that I fear, considering that the plan is to travel solo. My plan is to always drive on the edge of the mud holes, hopefully close to some trees or more solid ground to assist with recovery. I'd imagine that guys running company equipment don't really care if they get stuck or not.
Was the unit in the pictures left until the ground froze? How was it recovered?

2 6's and a a big ***** snow ramp. I've seen them worse, and quite a few as bad. Gets pretty expensive. Saw one of Pentastars sows suck one out that was deeper in floating muskeg onto it's trailer and walk away with it. Quite impressive, but cost was huge. No pics handy though

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

2 6's and a a big ***** snow ramp. I've seen them worse, and quite a few as bad. Gets pretty expensive. Saw one of Pentastars sows suck one out that was deeper in floating muskeg onto it's trailer and walk away with it. Quite impressive, but cost was huge. No pics handy though

What's a sow? Pardon my lack of understanding when it comes to oilfield terms. I figured that recovering a stuck Nodwell is at least as expensive as recovering a pick up that went through the ice...
The guys on a Unimog forum which I frequent say that one will need a tracked unit to recover a stuck Mog. What in the world do you need to recover a stuck tracked transporter?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

What's a sow? Pardon my lack of understanding when it comes to oilfield terms. I figured that recovering a stuck Nodwell is at least as expensive as recovering a pick up that went through the ice...
The guys on a Unimog forum which I frequent say that one will need a tracked unit to recover a stuck Mog. What in the world do you need to recover a stuck tracked transporter?

Basically about the size of a FN 320 nodwell but with an articulating trailer on it as well. Flat decks front and back. Big winch. That was about 20 years ago and the bill started out at $5000 just to start it.