Long-range Optics

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Awesome! Do you dial them in for the load by using the magnification? This sounds super interesting...my burris stuff limits you pretty much to about 600 tops. I love the idea, not sure i'm going to love clickers so i will totally look into this for my long range rig!

Yes it is set by magnification but it is a multiple crosshair system with crosses from 100-800 yards and 100-1000 yards depending on the model. Swaro has a target turret that colour coded for three ranges but with 40MOA it would likely top out at around 700 yards or possibly less.

[Stinky Coyote]

This is awesome news! Lots more aimpoints than the burris system...and you'd probably need a fairly good range of magnification to fine tune things properly? Do they give a simpler set of instructions on how to fine tune than the method i was thinking of?

And going to be very effective stuff if used properly forsure! How much energy does .270 wsm have left at 7-800 yrds...i don't have ballistic software and factory charts only tell me to 500 yrds?...still haven't decided on a caliber for my next bolt gun but pretty sure it will be wsm to rum...just not sure what cal i want....want to make sure its got close to 1000 ft/lbs at that range?

[Stinky Coyote]

I love where technology is headed on this stuff!

See any of those new bushnell 6500's btw? 6.5x power adjustment range....4.5-30x scopes! Pretty neat stuff coming out now!

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I love where technology is headed on this stuff!

See any of those new bushnell 6500's btw? 6.5x power adjustment range....4.5-30x scopes! Pretty neat stuff coming out now!

Ya, checked it out. Nice scope but a bit less light transfer than the 4200. If I were looking at a high zoom range scope, I think I'd go with the Swaro Z6.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

This is awesome news! Lots more aimpoints than the burris system...and you'd probably need a fairly good range of magnification to fine tune things properly? Do they give a simpler set of instructions on how to fine tune than the method i was thinking of?

And going to be very effective stuff if used properly forsure! How much energy does .270 wsm have left at 7-800 yrds...i don't have ballistic software and factory charts only tell me to 500 yrds?...still haven't decided on a caliber for my next bolt gun but pretty sure it will be wsm to rum...just not sure what cal i want....want to make sure its got close to 1000 ft/lbs at that range?

Yes, it's very simple and crosshairs are marked in yardage so no remembering which crosshair is for which range.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya, checked it out. Nice scope but a bit less light transfer than the 4200. If I were looking at a high zoom range scope, I think I'd go with the Swaro Z6.

Yeah, not sure i want to head that way either...the reticle/turret options will be what sells me far more in the future than the zoom range....combine it all though? Be kind of nice on the range forsure to dial up that high lol.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yes, it's very simple and crosshairs are marked in yardage so no remembering which crosshair is for which range.

I guess i was wondering if they had a simpler way of finding out exactly which magnification you need to be on to match your gun/cartridge perfectly rather than shoot a group at a known range and draw a black circle around the group then go back to the gun and zero the main crosshair while you dial the magnification so that the right hash mark lands on your black circle? I mean...that doesn't sound super hard to me but just curious if they had some instructions that made it even simpler than that?

Because you have to fine tune it to your rig forsure...can't just zero where they say and assume the rest of the marks will line up perfectly?

[ABwhitetail]

Ok, I am having a bit of a Brain block here.....Maybe someone could help explain....

I am having trouble understanding how the magnification plays a role in the aiming points on scopes with multiple reticles....

I have both types of scopes (single and multiple reticles)....on my single reticle....The gun seems to shoot the same (ie...bang on at 200yrds) no matter what magnification the 4-12 power scope is on....The groups are better as the magnification is higher. I chalked this off to being able to see your target better at higher magnification, therefore having a more precise point of aim....

Now on my Leupold VXIII with the B&C reticle....According to instructions I should be using it at a "set" magnification (in my case the highest magnification)....when using the multiple reticles for their designated distances....

So, how does the different levels of magnification effect the point of aim?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I love where technology is headed on this stuff!

See any of those new bushnell 6500's btw? 6.5x power adjustment range....4.5-30x scopes! Pretty neat stuff coming out now!

Yeah, I looked at these but with a .25 MOA reticle they are not an 800 yard setup by any means. The reticle on the 4200 is .5 MOA so it really isn't a long range scope. There is no possible way to hit something waaaay out there if the crosshairs are fatter than the target!

Originally Posted by ABwhitetail

Ok, I am having a bit of a Brain block here.....Maybe someone could help explain....

I am having trouble understanding how the magnification plays a role in the aiming points on scopes with multiple reticles....

I have both types of scopes (single and multiple reticles)....on my single reticle....The gun seems to shoot the same (ie...bang on at 200yrds) no matter what magnification the 4-12 power scope is on....The groups are better as the magnification is higher. I chalked this off to being able to see your target better at higher magnification, therefore having a more precise point of aim....

Now on my Leupold VXIII with the B&C reticle....According to instructions I should be using it at a "set" magnification (in my case the highest magnification)....when using the multiple reticles for their designated distances....

So, how does the different levels of magnification effect the point of aim?

You are corect that on most variable scopes that it doesn't change POI but on these it does. I think it's got something to do with magic....lol Not sure on the mechanics but that's how it works on the Zeiss.

[ABwhitetail]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are corect that on most variable scopes that it doesn't change POI but on these it does. I think it's got something to do with magic....lol Not sure on the mechanics but that's how it works on the Zeiss.

Magic is what my brain is telling me too The Leupold's are exactly the same....I just thought there possibly could be some simple explanation I was totally missing (cause I'm stupid )...good to know that might not be the case.....

[catnthehat]

It has to do with the power ring being on the first or second focal plane.
As far as long range scopes go, I use either a Unertl TRB 20X, a Lyman Super targetspot TRB in 15X, or a big IOR Valdada 8-36X tactical scope with a 34mm tube for a larger reticle adjustment.

here is the IOR on my son's 308 match rifle.

here is the Lyman TRB on a martini grener sporting rifle in .22lr.


here is the Unertl RTB on my long range 300WSM.
This rifle has gone all the way out to the mile.
If the range is known, it is a simple matter of clicking the external micrometer adjustment up to hit whatever you are aiming at.
A person would not want to carry this one far, but for stand hunting, it would be a fantastic rifle.

Cat

[sullijr]

Each power setting will have a different field of view.Thus the difference in the (min of angle) inches between the lines will change when the power is changed .Thats why the instructions that came with the B&C say to shoot it at the range for the yardage you want to verify that you are hitting where you want.

[ABwhitetail]

Originally Posted by sullijr

Each power setting will have a different field of view.Thus the difference in the (min of angle) inches between the lines will change when the power is changed .Thats why the instructions that came with the B&C say to shoot it at the range for the yardage you want to verify that you are hitting where you want.

Ok, I think I am getting it....

So if you have 2 focal plains....you will have 1 MOA inches for EACH of those plains (2 different MOA inches).... therefore under higher magnification the MOA inches between the various reticles will be greater....so in use, by switching from one reticle to the next you are actually moving your POI more than you would under lower magnification (or the other Focal Plain)...

In the case of only 1 reticle, this is not an issue.....

Am I on to something here?????

[Stinky Coyote]

Yup AB Whitetail...your onto it forsure. If the reticle is on first focal plane it magnifies with the target when you turn it up so it doesn't matter what power your on your known drop points will be same with a multi aim point type reticle. Yes it makes NO difference what mag your on if its just a regular crosshair without the extra aiming points regardless if front or rear focal plane reticle. And your right on about the 2nd focal plane reticle which is what most of our scopes are....you change the mag but reticle stays same so you change the gaps in relation to the animal....so you have to be on the right power to make a multi aim point reticle work consistantly.

Apparently North America likes their reticles on the second focal plane and the Europeans prefer it on the 1st. They debate this a bit on the long range hunting forums but i think i like the idea of the Zeiss system alot (especially for hunting!)....using the magnification to fine tune a multi point reticle to your specific gear is a great idea imo! The burris system is essentially the same but they don't go out as far as the Zeiss system and by the sounds of it don't get into the fine tuning part of it by adjusting your magnification to better match the aim points to the actual distances for your specific set up. Now that i've tried the simple burris version my next one is going for a 7-800 yrd set up.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Yeah, I looked at these but with a .25 MOA reticle they are not an 800 yard setup by any means. The reticle on the 4200 is .5 MOA so it really isn't a long range scope. There is no possible way to hit something waaaay out there if the crosshairs are fatter than the target!

Yeah, i guess changing the topic a bit there but was curious if you guys saw them and your thoughts(not as a long range option really)....unless they come with a good clicker option(didn't see any target versions on website yet) for dialing the long stuff i wouldn't look at one with the new drop stuff available now.

Did you guys check out the huskemaw stuff? Thoughts? I like the idea...especially for a clicker for 'hunting' purposes rather than the usualy 1/4moa clicks for the target stuff and ability to get a rotation out etc....its nice to see companies working to get more hunter friendly systems going on the optics forsure.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Yeah, i guess changing the topic a bit there but was curious if you guys saw them and your thoughts(not as a long range option really.

You know they were a nice scope and I'm going to get one to try out in the 4.5x30. The one down side to the 6.5 magnification is the loss in light transference. The 6500 is at 92% as compared to the 4200 at 95%. I couldn't find Husky there.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are corect that on most variable scopes that it doesn't change POI but on these it does. I think it's got something to do with magic....lol Not sure on the mechanics but that's how it works on the Zeiss.

Sorry, but your spreading some mis-information. Unless your scope is a first focal reticle, the spacing between stadia bars and therefore POI on a multi-point reticle always changes as you change magnification. The distance (as in bullet drop) accomodated between the stadia bars increases as you decrease magnification and decreases as magnification is increased. For example, if the spacing between the 500 yards stadia and 600 yards stadia acounts for 20" drop at 12x, that drop can be 36 " at 6x, which puts POI well off the mark if your using that 600 yard stadia at an incorrect magnification. At 200 yards probably not a big deal, but past 400 yards, it is very important.

The above is exactly the problem why these types of scopes should never be advertised as "quite literally point and shoot." You must verify the specific ballistics (at any given altitude, baro pressure, temp, etc because it changes your trajectory, really, it does) against the magnification and stadia line spacing of these reticles (never mind wind which really challenges POI at extended range). Scary some of the hype being spread on this thread....

Originally Posted by depopulator

Sorry, but your spreading some mis-information. Unless your scope is a first focal reticle, the spacing between stadia bars and therefore POI on a multi-point reticle always changes as you change magnification. The distance (as in bullet drop) accomodated between the stadia bars increases as you decrease magnification and decreases as magnification is increased. For example, if the spacing between the 500 yards stadia and 600 yards stadia acounts for 20" drop at 12x, that drop can be 36 " at 6x, which puts POI well off the mark if your using that 600 yard stadia at an incorrect magnification. At 200 yards probably not a big deal, but past 400 yards, it is very important.

The above is exactly the problem why these types of scopes should never be advertised as "quite literally point and shoot." You must verify the specific ballistics (at any given altitude, baro pressure, temp, etc because it changes your trajectory, really, it does) against the magnification and stadia line spacing of these reticles (never mind wind which really challenges POI at extended range). Scary some of the hype being spread on this thread....

I was actually talking about single reticle scopes not changing POI. No misinfo there.

Also, I agree that ballistics change with temp and elevation and such but you can enter that into the equation before setting the scope...no mis info there either.

[depopulator]

Sorry if I misunderstood. Just trying to clarify some of the above points.

Still, lot's of marketing hype being pushed on this thread, which is scary because it's too easy for some to be misguided (pun intended) into thinking they can go out and buy LR capability. Granted, interesting technology, but never a replacement for the actual long range trigger experience in actual field conditions. In fact, most who assume this tech is "point and shoot" learn different after seriously applying it at extended range. Maybe not a big deal under 500 yards though, but let's get real, this hype is not promoting these types of shots.........

Originally Posted by depopulator

Sorry if I misunderstood. Just trying to clarify some of the above points.

Still, lot's of marketing hype being pushed on this thread, which is scary because it's too easy for some to be misguided (pun intended) into thinking they can go out and buy LR capability. Granted, interesting technology, but never a replacement for the actual long range trigger experience in actual field conditions. In fact, most who assume this tech is "point and shoot" learn different after actually using it for any length of time. Maybe not a big deal under 500 yards though, but let's get real, this hype is not promoting these types of shots.........

Obviously there are a lot of provisions when shooting long range and I did reference that in the beginning but these new optics do aid greatly in becoming more effective at long ranges. Obviously there is no replacement for time behind the trigger but for someone with good shooting skills, these scopes will make you far more effective at longer ranges.

[209x50]

I can't or won't speak for anyone else but I never said for one second that you could go buy a high end scope and instantly shoot 800 yards. Only an idiot would believe me if I did!
Nothing replaces practice and as someone who has done just a little of that I was simply commenting how good the new scopes and technology are at amplifying that practice.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Obviously there is no replacement for time behind the trigger but for someone with good shooting skills, these scopes will make you far more effective at longer ranges.

or at the very least increase the sales bottom line, while making those with insufficient experience believe it will make them more effective......

Actually, I'd venture to say that scopes like the Rapid Z Zeiss will make any shooter more effective at longer ranges and hopefully give them the confidence to practice more at extended ranges before actually attempting a shot on a live animal. It sure beats guessing hold over with a single reticle!

[Jamie]

I think a good analogy here would be..

"Just because you have a stove, it doesn't make you a cook"

You need the tools to enjoy this end of our sport.
I guess its like anything else.. PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE

Jamie

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Too cool Cat....I'd love to get out with ya and blast some rocks with the irons....

Come on up this spring!
You can shoot the rifle rodeo with us at the same time!
Cat

[Bobby B.]

I agree with Jamie on this one, just because you have a stove, doesn't mean you can cook. Nonetheless, it is easier to cook a gourmet meal with a gas stove and range than a wood fire and a weeenie stick.

Bobby B.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Come on up this spring!
You can shoot the rifle rodeo with us at the same time!
Cat

I'm gonna have to look into makin it to the Ft. Mac rodeo this year...thanks for the invite...I will keep it in mind!!

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

I agree with Jamie on this one, just because you have a stove, doesn't mean you can cook. Nonetheless, it is easier to cook a gourmet meal with a gas stove and range than a wood fire and a weeenie stick.

Bobby B.

Jamie what a great way of putting it.

I knew you had it in you Bob.

A catch phrase to what I've been trying to convey on here for some time now.
Agree 100%
Mind if I plagiarize it from you!

[Donny Bear]

Being a user of the shepherd and now getting use to the ability of the rapid target aquisition on 300wsm. I cant help but be interested in the this new system. With shepherd you have your range finding ability in the scope the 9" 18" or 24" circles are in fact just that at all ranges out to 1000 yrds my current load is calibrated to the scope rather thaan the scope to the load but is accurate to 800 yrds without ajustment leaving room for windage and elevation ajustment a plenty!

So the only question I have is COST Shepherd 850.00 shipping included and range finding? Cost of the big Z

I wish I would have Met Dan you have an interesting life TJ I have spoke to Him and his sister your right nice people.
Added not talked to Rick at ATR he said he has never seen a scope quicker for target aquisition than the Shepherd things are changing quickly.