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  #31  
Old 11-12-2017, 03:09 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by southernman View Post
I've got two CZ .17 hornets a varmint, now chopped and suppressed to 20", and a American.
Have tried the following powders, H110, H4198, Littlegun, 4227, N120. And CFE blackout,
N120 gave best accuracy, in both rifles, at 3300fps for 10.5 gr
H110 was vet slow, 3100 fps, 4227 a bit faster 3200 good accuracy with both.
Littlegun was very erratic, and I experienced the odd blowed primer.
H4198 very accurate and at 3350,
Blackout gave just slight less accuracy that the best powder N120, and much higher speeds. 3700fps

blackout with a 20gr v-max. Wsr primer. /Cci 400, Hornardy or Ppu brass.

I got 12g -3470fps x5 shots avg
12.3 -3566fps x5 shots avg
12.5 -3700fps x5 shots avg
12.6- 3738fps x5 shots
12-8-3779fps x3 shots.
Shot in a CZ American and a mangospeed crony.
My CZ varmint 20" barrel is with in 25fps of the American. Very good performance, from such a small case.
Hard on rabbits, got head shot them, or no eating left.
I have settled on 12.5 gr Blackout with 20 v-max, wsr or Cci, for my main varmint load.
I tried 11.2 gr blackout with a 25 gr hornardy HP, for 3187 fps. Sub half inch.

Hope this help those looking for info.
Thanks for your input. I saw your post on a NZ site and hoped you would chime in as I have found no better information. It looks like you had a pressure spike either between 12.3 and 12.4 gr or between 12.4 and 12.5 grains. Did you try 12.4 gr? If not you may have missed the best accuracy node which may be at about 3675, which is still very good for the 17H, and may prove more stable. Let us know what you find should you decide to try this or if you already tried it and found 12.5 gr to be more accurate as it in the middle of the node.

Would also be great to know if you were using new brass or fired brass from early or new lot factory ammo that was FL or neck sized.
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  #32  
Old 11-12-2017, 04:02 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by dogslayer403 View Post
Well lil gun is out on my rifle set up the chrono and loaded up some 20g vmax 5 of each at 9.2,9.3,9.4
First two at 9.2 went 3646 and 3657 i was suprised to be almost at book max velocity on that load then shot 3 went 3580 and sure enough blown primer. Chronoed my factory ammo at 3570. The other day i went to 9.5g before it showed pressure signs when i didnt have my chrono now im having blow outs at 9.2g way to unpredictable for me I think I will grab some cfe blk and try to shoot for 3550-3600 fps if that doesnt work out this gun is getting fed factory 20g heck it might anyway shoots darn good with factory
You have described much the same results as many have reported. There seems to be more to it than temperature instability and maybe how different primers burn may be the answer? Here is a link to a good article about primers that may not answer the question but is good none the less http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...motaip_200909/. This link may partly answer the question http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html. Notice how much more flash a Rem 7 1/2 primer has than a CCI BR4 or Federal 205. Lil Gun is a dual base powder with a high nitroglycerine/nitrocellulose content compared to other dual base powders like RL 10 & 7 , Ramshot Tac & Exterminator and CFE 223 & CFE BLK. In fact I believe it begins to deteriorate fairly fast when exposed to air and/or plastic as I have had it get wet in my RCBS Chargemaster and even etch the plastic. This and the lower load density, coupled with cooler burning primers, may actually lead to detonation which would cause pressures high enough to cause enough primer pocket/web expansion to blow primers followed by a drop in pressure propelling the bullet. I think it best to find some CFE BLK as it looks like it will give a higher load density due to a slower burn rate so this problem may be resolved.
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  #33  
Old 11-12-2017, 10:07 PM
southernman southernman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
Thanks for your input. I saw your post on a NZ site and hoped you would chime in as I have found no better information. It looks like you had a pressure spike either between 12.3 and 12.4 gr or between 12.4 and 12.5 grains. Did you try 12.4 gr? If not you may have missed the best accuracy node which may be at about 3675, which is still very good for the 17H, and may prove more stable. Let us know what you find should you decide to try this or if you already tried it and found 12.5 gr to be more accurate as it in the middle of the node.

Would also be great to know if you were using new brass or fired brass from early or new lot factory ammo that was FL or neck sized.
Iclund, I haven't bothered with testing between 12.3 and 12.5grains, I am well inside 1/2 an inch with both rifles, for five shots, and this is with all charges tried, except the max charge of 12.8.
The varmint CZ is likely shooting groups of around .3-.4, and small game here is much bigger, rabbits, hares, cat, opossums all between 5 to 15lbs. So slightly larger target,

Brass used during the intinal testing was Hornardy. With 2-4 firings, full length sized with redding dies, and Winchester small rifle primers,
I have since used, once fired formed Ppu brass, and noticed no obvious difference in accuracy,
Even the fireform Ppu brass,( I drop charge by half a grain )is well inside a one inch group,
I see no point in fiddling any further, with my .17 hornets, for any small accuracy gain, if I want more accuracy, in a varmint rifle, I will take my Sako in .17 fireball and shoot 25gr v-max or Cooper 6x45 and shoot a 65 gr v-max or 80gr Serbia, as both are much less affected by wind, have far greater legs, more energy, and far better scopes.
Great walk about gun, but if I want long distance, I take another rifle.
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  #34  
Old 11-13-2017, 06:30 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by southernman View Post
Iclund, I haven't bothered with testing between 12.3 and 12.5grains, I am well inside 1/2 an inch with both rifles, for five shots, and this is with all charges tried, except the max charge of 12.8.
The varmint CZ is likely shooting groups of around .3-.4, and small game here is much bigger, rabbits, hares, cat, opossums all between 5 to 15lbs. So slightly larger target,

Brass used during the intinal testing was Hornardy. With 2-4 firings, full length sized with redding dies, and Winchester small rifle primers,
I have since used, once fired formed Ppu brass, and noticed no obvious difference in accuracy,
Even the fireform Ppu brass,( I drop charge by half a grain )is well inside a one inch group,
I see no point in fiddling any further, with my .17 hornets, for any small accuracy gain, if I want more accuracy, in a varmint rifle, I will take my Sako in .17 fireball and shoot 25gr v-max or Cooper 6x45 and shoot a 65 gr v-max or 80gr Serbia, as both are much less affected by wind, have far greater legs, more energy, and far better scopes.
Great walk about gun, but if I want long distance, I take another rifle.
Knowing you personally, you are a practical person that cares less about theory and what should happen , and more about the results that you actually achieve. And you are seeing very good results by using that approach to load delopment.
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  #35  
Old 11-13-2017, 11:50 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by southernman View Post
Iclund, I haven't bothered with testing between 12.3 and 12.5grains, I am well inside 1/2 an inch with both rifles, for five shots, and this is with all charges tried, except the max charge of 12.8.
The varmint CZ is likely shooting groups of around .3-.4, and small game here is much bigger, rabbits, hares, cat, opossums all between 5 to 15lbs. So slightly larger target,

Brass used during the intinal testing was Hornardy. With 2-4 firings, full length sized with redding dies, and Winchester small rifle primers,
I have since used, once fired formed Ppu brass, and noticed no obvious difference in accuracy,
Even the fireform Ppu brass,( I drop charge by half a grain )is well inside a one inch group,
I see no point in fiddling any further, with my .17 hornets, for any small accuracy gain, if I want more accuracy, in a varmint rifle, I will take my Sako in .17 fireball and shoot 25gr v-max or Cooper 6x45 and shoot a 65 gr v-max or 80gr Serbia, as both are much less affected by wind, have far greater legs, more energy, and far better scopes.
Great walk about gun, but if I want long distance, I take another rifle.
Thanks for that information as it will be very helpful to the OP, and others. I only asked if you had tried 12.4 grains because working up in larger increments one can miss an accuracy node with these small cartridges. I stopped fiddling with the 17 Hornet because of the overpressure problems resulting from Hornady's initial loadings and load data that was obviously obtained by the "Safe in My rifle", with disclaimer of course. I have went to the more practical 22LR for close in gophers and my 20 wildcat which is practical for 100 yard to 500 yard shots on these little buggers .

When the 17 H was first introduced I was very excited to try this well designed little 17. I likely had one of the first in Canada and after obtaining this Load Development Information from Hornady I quickly set about using it in a practical way to find a load, in new brass that compared to the factory ammo I had obtained.
[IMG][/IMG]
It was in late winter but I went ahead and did this ladder with AA 1680 as it showed 12.4 grains getting 3700 fps in a rifle just like mine using the same components.
[IMG][/IMG]

Wow 12.0 grains impressed me so I loaded up a few and wow nearly the same velocity as the factory and to the same POI on two targets!
[IMG][/IMG]

Buddy did a ladder with H335 and the 25 V-Max and we thought we had a keeper when we saw the 12.8 grain target which appeared to be a nice full load.

[IMG][/IMG]

I went ahead and drew up the cartridge to find what I had and found that the 20 V-Max load only filled 93% of the case below the bullet. I realized that AA 2200 may be a better fit than the 1680.
[IMG][/IMG]

Later that spring, as the weather warmed up my measurements , against the Saami Drawing shown earlier and primer protrusion measurements, showed that the pressures developed by both the factory load and my "good" AA 1680 were not "safe loads".

My drawings helped me determine full loads of AA 2200 under the 20 V-Max and I estimated the velocity I might get, which proved more than a bit off.
[IMG][/IMG]

I contacted Western Powders and told them what I suspected which was that the Hornady Data was much too hot with 12.4 gr AA 1680 and the 20 V-Max. I also gave them my findings on AA 2200 and suggested it would get more velocity than the 1680 and about the right pressure from a full case. I asked them if they would provide pressure data. About a month or two later they came out with the data in their online manual which showed 11.2 gr 1680 as max delivering 3498 fps and 49,657 PSI. The AA 2200 Data showed a max load of 13.0gr, exactly as my new brass drawing indicted, developing 3553 fps and 49,768 PSI with more than acceptable accuracy. Wow a "Good Safe Load" was now possible and later proved practical. It seems strange that Hornady's factory ammo now runs more than 100 fps slower than their original hype indicated . My methods may seem impractical to some but they do work much better than trial and error.

Later that summer, on a hot day in the gopher patch, my good friend had the misfortune of a blown primer with factory ammunition as shown on previous pictures. Luckily he did not sustain any bodily harm but it was the demise of the 17 H, as far as I was concerned, because my methods were again proven right, in spite of denial by one of the Hornady engineers on this project.

I did work on another 17 Hornet last spring and have reported on that earlier in this thread. I did want to try CFE BLK but we decided to scrap the project in spite of what looked like a very good powder that would make this cartridge what Hornady had originaly reported it to be.
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  #36  
Old 11-13-2017, 05:38 PM
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6.5 shooter 6.5 shooter is offline
 
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Default .17 hornet

I am shooting the CZ rifle and have tried both lil gun and H4198..Lil gun smells bad and is finicky but accuracy is great and meters better then H4198. H4198 is less finicky and give the same accuracy as Lilgun so it is a bit of a toss up...but I tend to lean towards H4198 due to smell and not quite as finicky as lil gun....I have and do use Rem 6.5 and CCI 400 primers, I have had zero issues with either.

I have found that 20gr. bullets tend to leave more walking wounded then the 25 gr. bullets and shoot them exclusively now either in Berger or Hornady v-max. V-max has a bit better bc but the gophers never notice.
These bullets have taken hundred of gophers up to 300+ yds. and 2 coyotes both yotes never moved at 25yds and 225yds. "so it will kill".

As for dies and brass well that is another story.
Hornady dies, my first ones SUCKED and customer service was none exsistant. Expander ball was to small so I had a machinist friend build me a proper sized one and was able to load a few hundred rounds ...before the seating dies cheap aluminium seater pin failed and I was left with 300 rounds primed and powdered....and no help from Hornady.....I waited 4 months to get a reply or a new set from my dealer here in town....nothing.

So off to the internet I go, a friend had a set of Hornady dies plus a bunch of brass bullets etc....so I bought then from him.... I was also was offered a set of RCBS dies from another gentleman online so I bought those as well.

Long story short I think the RCBS dies are better then the Hornady dies but both work well....if you get a good set.

Primer pockets on factory once fired brass has been loose as a goose to super tight...causing some tearing of the primer pocket cup..which caused a few issues with blow back and marking the bolt face...... on my rifle.

Though the round has been VERY challenging..... I love it...Accurate, deadly and mild mannered..... what is not to love

P.S. buy a single follower from James Calhoon....you will thank me later
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  #37  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter View Post
I am shooting the CZ rifle and have tried both lil gun and H4198..Lil gun smells bad and is finicky but accuracy is great and meters better then H4198. H4198 is less finicky and give the same accuracy as Lilgun so it is a bit of a toss up...but I tend to lean towards H4198 due to smell and not quite as finicky as lil gun....I have and do use Rem 6.5 and CCI 400 primers, I have had zero issues with either.

I have found that 20gr. bullets tend to leave more walking wounded then the 25 gr. bullets and shoot them exclusively now either in Berger or Hornady v-max. V-max has a bit better bc but the gophers never notice.
These bullets have taken hundred of gophers up to 300+ yds. and 2 coyotes both yotes never moved at 25yds and 225yds. "so it will kill".

As for dies and brass well that is another story.
Hornady dies, my first ones SUCKED and customer service was none exsistant. Expander ball was to small so I had a machinist friend build me a proper sized one and was able to load a few hundred rounds ...before the seating dies cheap aluminium seater pin failed and I was left with 300 rounds primed and powdered....and no help from Hornady.....I waited 4 months to get a reply or a new set from my dealer here in town....nothing.

So off to the internet I go, a friend had a set of Hornady dies plus a bunch of brass bullets etc....so I bought then from him.... I was also was offered a set of RCBS dies from another gentleman online so I bought those as well.

Long story short I think the RCBS dies are better then the Hornady dies but both work well....if you get a good set.

Primer pockets on factory once fired brass has been loose as a goose to super tight...causing some tearing of the primer pocket cup..which caused a few issues with blow back and marking the bolt face...... on my rifle.

Though the round has been VERY challenging..... I love it...Accurate, deadly and mild mannered..... what is not to love

P.S. buy a single follower from James Calhoon....you will thank me later
Thanks for the input 6.5! I'm enjoying this thread, enjoying hearing from fans of this caliber, etc. I can't remember spending so much time/preparation/research on any caliber, especially one I've never even shot, or been in the presence of. lol I'm a big CZ rimfire fan and was instantly smitten with the rifle when I opened the box. Just a thing of beauty. For that reason..and because of the deteriorating weather situation here in Southern Ontario, I don't mind taking my time...and trying to get this right. I did pick up some once-fired Hornady brass (all gold-primer) as well as some factory ammo from Cabela's~it TOO has the gold primer. Powder, more factory ammo, Hornady Dies, Satern Powder funnel, bore guide, .17cal Proshot rod, CFE BLK~all on their way. As are 16mm, 1" MED height WARNE rings. Thought I had the right ones purchased...turns out the 19mm rings are for the CZ550.

If anybody wants a great deal on 1" MED height, CZ550 WARNE rings..PM me! lol
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  #38  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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Oh...and if anyone has a lead on a .17 Pilot for a Lyman case trimmer, please message me.
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  #39  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:30 AM
45/70/500 45/70/500 is offline
 
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Default lyman 17

unless it has changed in the last yr. the pilot and cutter shaft are one piece at about 36 U.S
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:50 AM
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unless it has changed in the last yr. the pilot and cutter shaft are one piece at about 36 U.S
I searched Lyman's site and didn't see that. Have a link by any chance?
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  #41  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:00 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Oh...and if anyone has a lead on a .17 Pilot for a Lyman case trimmer, please message me.
One listed on Canada Brass site: https://www.canadabrass.ca/collectio...ant=1405706948
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  #42  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:28 AM
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Thanks lclund~I had hoped my LGS could find me one from their supplier, but had heard they could only get the RCBS. Not compatible from what I've found out on the Googler. I just messaged CanadaBrass.

thanks again for the help,
Rob
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  #43  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:37 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Thanks for that information as it will be very helpful to the OP, and others. I only asked if you had tried 12.4 grains because working up in larger increments one can miss an accuracy node with these small cartridges. I stopped fiddling with the 17 Hornet because of the overpressure problems resulting from Hornady's initial loadings and load data that was obviously obtained by the "Safe in My rifle", with disclaimer of course. I have went to the more practical 22LR for close in gophers and my 20 wildcat which is practical for 100 yard to 500 yard shots on these little buggers .

When the 17 H was first introduced I was very excited to try this well designed little 17. I likely had one of the first in Canada and after obtaining this Load Development Information from Hornady I quickly set about using it in a practical way to find a load, in new brass that compared to the factory ammo I had obtained.
[IMG][/IMG]
It was in late winter but I went ahead and did this ladder with AA 1680 as it showed 12.4 grains getting 3700 fps in a rifle just like mine using the same components.
[IMG][/IMG]

Wow 12.0 grains impressed me so I loaded up a few and wow nearly the same velocity as the factory and to the same POI on two targets!
[IMG][/IMG]

Buddy did a ladder with H335 and the 25 V-Max and we thought we had a keeper when we saw the 12.8 grain target which appeared to be a nice full load.

[IMG][/IMG]

I went ahead and drew up the cartridge to find what I had and found that the 20 V-Max load only filled 93% of the case below the bullet. I realized that AA 2200 may be a better fit than the 1680.
[IMG][/IMG]

Later that spring, as the weather warmed up my measurements , against the Saami Drawing shown earlier and primer protrusion measurements, showed that the pressures developed by both the factory load and my "good" AA 1680 were not "safe loads".

My drawings helped me determine full loads of AA 2200 under the 20 V-Max and I estimated the velocity I might get, which proved more than a bit off.
[IMG][/IMG]

I contacted Western Powders and told them what I suspected which was that the Hornady Data was much too hot with 12.4 gr AA 1680 and the 20 V-Max. I also gave them my findings on AA 2200 and suggested it would get more velocity than the 1680 and about the right pressure from a full case. I asked them if they would provide pressure data. About a month or two later they came out with the data in their online manual which showed 11.2 gr 1680 as max delivering 3498 fps and 49,657 PSI. The AA 2200 Data showed a max load of 13.0gr, exactly as my new brass drawing indicted, developing 3553 fps and 49,768 PSI with more than acceptable accuracy. Wow a "Good Safe Load" was now possible and later proved practical. It seems strange that Hornady's factory ammo now runs more than 100 fps slower than their original hype indicated . My methods may seem impractical to some but they do work much better than trial and error.

Later that summer, on a hot day in the gopher patch, my good friend had the misfortune of a blown primer with factory ammunition as shown on previous pictures. Luckily he did not sustain any bodily harm but it was the demise of the 17 H, as far as I was concerned, because my methods were again proven right, in spite of denial by one of the Hornady engineers on this project.

I did work on another 17 Hornet last spring and have reported on that earlier in this thread. I did want to try CFE BLK but we decided to scrap the project in spite of what looked like a very good powder that would make this cartridge what Hornady had originaly reported it to be.
My methods may not be practical to some but sometimes they come very close to real world "Good Safe" pressure tested loads before they become available from manufactures of various powders.

I did this drawing showing dimensions of a Fired, Hornady 17H case compared to New and then Sized in a Hornady FL die set. I measured how much AA 2200 fit in the FL sized case and adjusted my drawing to reflect the 14.6 grains. I also determined that the Hornady die was perfect as it sized the base only 0.001", the shoulder by 0.0015" and put about 0.002" neck tension on the bullet. I was also able to determine that the chamber was at Saami minimum specs at the neck and just over minimum spec at the base. I was also able to determine HS and confirm that the die gave about 0.001" HS when just touching the shell holder.
[IMG][/IMG]

I was then able to draw a 25 Hornady bullet seated in that FL case and record how much it held with various other powders. I was then able to easily compute how much of each powder was needed to fill the case to the bullet. AA 2200 filled the case at 12.9 grains so I did a conservative ladder to 12.6 grains. 12.1 gr gave me the best accuracy at, 3256 with my Chrony, and 12.6gr begin to show max pressure signs. When Ramshot released their pressure tested loads they showed a max load @ 12.4 gr running 3223fps at 48714PSI so I was in the ball park. I also determined that 11.05 grains of H 4198 would be a full case under the 25 V-Max and estimated velocity to be 3175 fps. When Hodgdon came out with pressure tested loads they showed 11.1C gr getting 3187 fps at 42,500 PSI. I believe that it would be practically impossible to come any closer to a "Good Safe Load" than that especially considering there was no pressure data available at the time.
[IMG][/IMG]

Hornady got it right with the H 4198 load for the 25 V-Max and were only a bit high on the AA 1680 loading. To bad that they hadn't done the same with their 20 grain factory load and the 20 grain AA1680 load. I believe that, if they had, the 17 Hornet would have gotten off to a much better start as the problems with the brass was mostly due to overpressure loads and the excessive HS problems. I also believe that amsofella is on to something when he lubes his cases as they likely fire form properly by sliding back against the bolt face and blowing the shoulder forward rather than the case head backward. A good friend informed me that this is what Ackley would have done and that G96 works great.
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:32 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I finally got around to testing CFE-BLK in my 17 Hornet. 12.4 gr was around 1/2moa for five shots at 3650fps, and 12.6 gr was around 3/4moa at 3700fps. I felt slight resistance lifting the bolt after firing 12.6 gr, so 12.4gr is going to be my load with this powder.
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:19 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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Man a 1/10th of a grain sure makes a difference on this little cases.
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  #46  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:29 PM
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Elk good to see your results, pretty much mirror mine, and quite a useful gain in speed over N 120,
You been out yet, picking on them ground squirrels ?
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:39 PM
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Elk good to see your results, pretty much mirror mine, and quite a useful gain in speed over N 120,
You been out yet, picking on them ground squirrels ?
The snow is just about gone here, I hope to do some looking around next week for new fields. Our results with both Lil Gun and CFE-BLK demonstrate why loads should be worked up, rather than just starting with the max load.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2018, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
Rem 6 1/2 Small Rifle Primers written on the package and similar to CCI 400 but may take slightly less pressure. Rem 7 1/2 Small Rife Bench Rest on the package and very similar to Federal Small Rifle 205 Gold Medal Match and CCI BR4 Small Rifle Match Primers. Although the Rem 7 1/2 will take a bit more pressure, before showing pressure signs, than the 205GMM they take a bit less pressure than the CCI BR4. Any of these will work fine in the 17 Hornet just be aware that they will take more pressure than the case will handle and any cratering or primer flow of the primers, in a fire formed case, is likely too hot for this 50,000 PSI rated case. Use data from the Ramshot Manual as some Hornady loads are too hot with AA1680 and try AA 2200 if you can get it. (see Link) http://www.ramshot.com/load-data/. Ramshot use Winchester Small Rifle Primers (WSR) in their Data.

Hodgdon have pressure data for Lil Gun at a Max 10.0 grains but I would avoid using it as it can be quite volatile and cases of detonation have been reported. However their CFE BLK, or blackout powder shows great promise for this cartridge and is what I would be looking for. Hodgdon use Federal 205M primers in their loads.

I did not find a problem with the Early Brass but the early Factory ammo was loaded too hot, with a temperature sensitive powder, and I had a primer blow. I also believe that this was the problem with reloading Factory 1X fired brass as the primer pockets were already loose. However I did not reload these cases and some reported shallow primer pockets which I did not experience. One blown primer was enough with my Savage 25 as it blew the extractor out of the bolt so I sold it along with likely the first set of Hornady dies to hit Canada as a friend brought them up from the States before they were readily available in Canada. I found these dies to be a perfect fit as they sized brass to within 0.001", of a fire formed brass at the neck, shoulder and base datum and HS as well. Got an opportunity to buy a CZ 527 American along with a set of Redding FL dies and a bunch of fired brass and ammo. Found the Reloaded brass to have about 0.0012- 0.0015" excess HS although that could have been because the new brass had not fireformed?? At any rate the Redding Dies overworked the brass at the shoulder and base, compared to the Hornady dies so I recommending buying Hornady.

I had an opportunity to compare some brass from some of the "New" Factory ammo and found that it held nearly a grain less than the "Old" brass and primers seated so hard that they were flattened a bit from my hand held primer. The new factory rounds were running much less pressure/velociyty as well. Please be aware of this and load accordingly and start low with a pressure ladder. I have no further interest in this cartridge although it performs well with the new factory ammo and perhaps even better with handloads?? Just be careful as pressures can really jump up fast in this small cartridge.


i'm sure glad you mentioned your issue with the Redding dies before you sold thm to me
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Old 04-21-2018, 02:34 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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I finally got around to testing CFE-BLK in my 17 Hornet. 12.4 gr was around 1/2moa for five shots at 3650fps, and 12.6 gr was around 3/4moa at 3700fps. I felt slight resistance lifting the bolt after firing 12.6 gr, so 12.4gr is going to be my load with this powder.
Thanks for that information which is very timely as I just got a can to test in my friend's 17. I guess I was pretty close in my estimations when I suggested to southerman that he should try 12.4 grains in this post. "Thanks for your input. I saw your post on a NZ site and hoped you would chime in as I have found no better information. It looks like you had a pressure spike either between 12.3 and 12.4 gr or between 12.4 and 12.5 grains. Did you try 12.4 gr? If not you may have missed the best accuracy node which may be at about 3675, which is still very good for the 17H, and may prove more stable."

I guess your snide comment, directed at me, was unwarranted as usual. Knowing you personally, you are a practical person that cares less about theory and what should happen , and more about the results that you actually achieve. And you are seeing very good results by using that approach to load delopment."
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Old 04-21-2018, 03:16 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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i'm sure glad you mentioned your issue with the Redding dies before you sold thm to me
I cannot remember mentioning this issue to you before selling the Redding Dies? I am sure that you found the dies exactly as described which was in good working order. As Elk uses the same dies, without incident, they should give you good service as long as you adjust them properly. As I reported the Hornady FL dies I had were are a perfect match for the 17 HH chamber. The issue I had was that the Wilson Case Holder, I had specially made to fit brass FL sized with the Hornady die, was too large for the brass sized with the FL Redding die. I found it easier to have "buddy" buy a Hornady die than to have another Shell holder made so I could trim brass for him.

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Old 04-24-2018, 12:00 PM
aardvaark aardvaark is offline
 
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I just came across this thread. I’ve had nothing but trouble with this round and also the cz527. If it wasn’t for the money and time I’ve spent on this project I’d have given up long ago. But this thread looks like I might be able to get a better handle on this round.

I’ve only been able to get around 1.5 moa and that's with factory 20 & 25, 20, 25 gr Vmax, lilgun, and h4198. All the above combos and the only consistency is 1.5 moa. Lots of ruined cases from over pressure which I thot might be soft Hornady brass bc I thot published info had to be accurate. Error. At least according to your above info.

I’m also going to try to adjust out some of the after travel in the trigger as past experience has showed me that can be detrimental.

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I’ll give this thread a more thorough going over and apply some of your findings.

What I’ve learned on this thread so far is that I have (correctly) been using SR magnum primers fr cci which is likely why I didn’t detect overpressure. I like the Hornady dies cuz of the drop down which holds the bullet in place while seating. I have had a lot of trouble eliminating case runout, and am not sure what to do about that yet. I’ve already gone through 100 Horn cases and was hoping new cases might help that problem.

I’ve also experienced a wide variance in empty case weight with Horn factory rounds. Not so much with Horn brass.

Also the small .17 is very fussy on keeping the barrel clean. Groups open up very quickly fr 1.5 to 4 moa if allowed to foul. Can’t remember the # of rounds to produce this but it does happen much quicker and also much more suddenly than other calibers.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvaark View Post
I just came across this thread. I’ve had nothing but trouble with this round and also the cz527. If it wasn’t for the money and time I’ve spent on this project I’d have given up long ago. But this thread looks like I might be able to get a better handle on this round.

I’ve only been able to get around 1.5 moa and that's with factory 20 & 25, 20, 25 gr Vmax, lilgun, and h4198. All the above combos and the only consistency is 1.5 moa. Lots of ruined cases from over pressure which I thot might be soft Hornady brass bc I thot published info had to be accurate. Error. At least according to your above info.

I’m also going to try to adjust out some of the after travel in the trigger as past experience has showed me that can be detrimental.

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I’ll give this thread a more thorough going over and apply some of your findings.

What I’ve learned on this thread so far is that I have (correctly) been using SR magnum primers fr cci which is likely why I didn’t detect overpressure. I like the Hornady dies cuz of the drop down which holds the bullet in place while seating. I have had a lot of trouble eliminating case runout, and am not sure what to do about that yet. I’ve already gone through 100 Horn cases and was hoping new cases might help that problem.

I’ve also experienced a wide variance in empty case weight with Horn factory rounds. Not so much with Horn brass.

Also the small .17 is very fussy on keeping the barrel clean. Groups open up very quickly fr 1.5 to 4 moa if allowed to foul. Can’t remember the # of rounds to produce this but it does happen much quicker and also much more suddenly than other calibers.
Hey aardvaark~I've done more research and load preparation than I have shooting, but that's about to change now that spring actually feels like it's here in Southern Ontario. Weekend forecast is rain...but soon after.

I'd be more than happy to share my load data, as I was SUB MOA on several loads right out of the gate. I started with factory ammo (3 Hornady flavors) before I bought any bullets/powder, then quickly settled on 20gr V-Max and no others. At lclund's suggestion, the only powder I've been loading with is CFE-BLK...in spite of having LOTS of other options to try without buying another pound of powder. No regrets. My brass is once-fired Hornady, dies are Hornady, primers CCI BR4s, and loaded to a 1.72" OAL. (I think, don't have my notes with me) I had hoped that the .010" off the lands would have worked, but no dice with this bullet/rifle. I might also add, I FL resize, and have only gone as high as 13gr. of this powder...which if memory serves, is maybe .01 or .02 gr. over the highest, recommended charge. I won't exceed that, nor do I suggest anyone else do it. I only mention that because I've had zero evidence of excessive pressure.

Lastly~when shooting any centerfire, I go slow...so no signs of accuracy drop-off/fouling yet. Maybe a combination of factors there. BUT, because of my own habits and my lack of fondness for the box mag (though I love the look of it) I bought a single-shot adapter from James Calhoon. It might be the nicest, firearm accessory I've ever bought. A money order for $70 US mailed to Montana put one in my mail box about 2-3 weeks later.

I probably have less experience with 17 Hornet than anyone else who has chimed in, but if I can help...don't hesitate to ask.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:52 PM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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Aardvark, back off your action screws, and retorque them. 35 in lbs. Resight in your gun.

I had that problem.
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2018, 01:10 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Where is everyone getting their CFE-BLK in Calgary?
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:36 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvaark View Post
I just came across this thread. I’ve had nothing but trouble with this round and also the cz527. If it wasn’t for the money and time I’ve spent on this project I’d have given up long ago. But this thread looks like I might be able to get a better handle on this round.

I’ve only been able to get around 1.5 moa and that's with factory 20 & 25, 20, 25 gr Vmax, lilgun, and h4198. All the above combos and the only consistency is 1.5 moa. Lots of ruined cases from over pressure which I thot might be soft Hornady brass bc I thot published info had to be accurate. Error. At least according to your above info.

I’m also going to try to adjust out some of the after travel in the trigger as past experience has showed me that can be detrimental.

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I’ll give this thread a more thorough going over and apply some of your findings.

What I’ve learned on this thread so far is that I have (correctly) been using SR magnum primers fr cci which is likely why I didn’t detect overpressure. I like the Hornady dies cuz of the drop down which holds the bullet in place while seating. I have had a lot of trouble eliminating case runout, and am not sure what to do about that yet. I’ve already gone through 100 Horn cases and was hoping new cases might help that problem.

I’ve also experienced a wide variance in empty case weight with Horn factory rounds. Not so much with Horn brass.

Also the small .17 is very fussy on keeping the barrel clean. Groups open up very quickly fr 1.5 to 4 moa if allowed to foul. Can’t remember the # of rounds to produce this but it does happen much quicker and also much more suddenly than other calibers.
The hornet cases actually tend to be more accurate with the weaker primers, magnum primers are likely part of your problem. As for excessive pressure, the Hodgdons loads with Lil Gun are too hot with most rifles, and magnum primers just make things worse. My Ruger gave me accuracy issues, but with some work, I was able to achieve sub moa. My CZ easily did 3/4moa, and around 1/2 moa with some loads. My Cooper easy does 1/2moa. In all cases, the rifles liked the bullets seated just off of the lands. As far as run out goes, I use regular Redding dies, and have them adjusted to bump the shoulder just enough to allow cases to chamber with little resistance.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:34 PM
aardvaark aardvaark is offline
 
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Default Big Thank-You!

Not my thread, but I really appreciate the replies and advice. I got this gun as a back-up for close in coyotes cuz the 204 is too hard on fur under 200yds. Because of all the trouble I’ve had I haven’t used it yet on yotes and I’ve had it 2 winters now.

Thanks guys, and let’s keep the 17Hornet chatter going!
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:57 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Once you get a load the rifle likes, It's a great cartridge. It can take higher volume shooting than the larger cases without heating up, and kills on ground squirrels are still dramatic at over 250 yards.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:51 PM
southernman southernman is offline
 
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Aardvaark, you may have to bed the action, in your rifle, CZ 527 don't come very well bedded,, at least the 4 I have didn't, I've had to do two, of mine, one was bought new, wonky,wobbley in the action to stock, for cheap.

Try using the set trigger, this may also improve groups, off the bench,
Both Cz .17 hornets I have are consistent 3/4 five shot group's, the varmint is closer to 1/2", very small powder differences, make a big difference in speed, 1/10g make change things by 50 fps.
I recommend weigh each load, at least during development,
I also agree with elk above, that magnum primers are not at improvement, if your getting overpressure ruined cases, drop back your H4198 loads, throw away little gun, I had blowen primers at minimum littlegun charges,
Blackout, N120 h4198, 4227 are good powders to start with,
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Old 04-25-2018, 01:58 PM
aardvaark aardvaark is offline
 
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Default CFE BLK availability

Thanks again for the replies, guys. Very helpful. I’ve done a little searching and haven’t been able to come up with a supply of the CFE BLK you guys mention above. Any ideas?

The only one I found was Higginson but I don’t need enough to get an order large enuf to make it worth while. Unless some of you want to team up with me and make it worth while?
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:02 PM
aardvaark aardvaark is offline
 
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Southern man: I’ve thought about bedding the action, it is really sloppy. Also when I use the set trigger, it still has as much, maybe even more after travel and the groups don’t change. I only used it enough to realize I don’t like it.

All in all, a beautiful gun, but so poorly made. Third world quality for first world price is what I call it.
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