New Sheep Jig and Registering

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by albertadave

I don't know. Ask them.
https://www.wsfab.org/

Thanks Dave. Always helpful and informative. Just like trusting WSF Alberta chapter to anything for our sheep here.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by albertadave

I did not say, or even imply, that I was in any way in favour of a draw (BTW I'm not, if it really matters). I simply stated that sheep going on draw would result in an increase in trophy quality.

Stopping hunting them would also result in bigger sheep.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by chuck

Stopping hunting them would also result in bigger sheep.

You're likely correct. But I'm not in favour of that either, any more than I would be in favour of a draw.
Again, since you seem to be having trouble understanding me (or maybe you're just looking for a fight), my statement about a draw increasing trophy quality was just me disagreeing with ramcrazy's post that I quoted, which said the opposite. Nothing more. Nothing less. Go back and re-read it, maybe that will help?

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Thanks Dave. Always helpful and informative. Just like trusting WSF Alberta chapter to anything for our sheep here.

What else do you want?? I haven't been a director on that board for about a year and half now. I have no more information than any other regular member that gets a newsletter a couple times a year. If you want to know their position on a potential draw, or any other matter, just call or email them. If you don't think they're doing enough for sheep, then get off your ass and get involved. Or just complain on the internet. Makes no difference to me.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by albertadave

What else do you want?? I haven't been a director on that board for about a year and half now. I have no more information than any other regular member that gets a newsletter a couple times a year. If you want to know their position on a potential draw, or any other matter, just call or email them. If you don't think they're doing enough for sheep, then get off your ass and get involved. Or just complain on the internet. Makes no difference to me.

That’s good to hear.

[dave99]

Despite our strong opinions, none of us know exactly what would happen should Alberta go from an OTC sheep tag to a draw.

How could we be so sure without first knowing the numbers that would be allocated to residents and guides as well as the uncontrolled variable of unlicensed hunters?

My best guess is that under a draw, areas with good and relatively easy access within any given WMU will see a downward trend in size of ram harvested, often to well below 4/5 curl, while more remote and overlooked areas will steadily improve. Guides would benefit greatly, because of guaranteed allocations and the decrease in apparent competition due to the drop in average sheep hunter IQ and effort that inevitably occurs under a draw system.

Unfortunately, it looks like we are inching toward a showdown between opportunity and perceived hunt/trophy quality (both in terms of competition from other hunters and possibly trophy size). I say unfortunately, because I see it as a shame to limit opportunity before addressing other variables such as habitat and predation.

Here is a crazy idea: a small number of draw tags on 4/5 curl sheep, and concurrent general OTC tags for anything past full curl, or double broomed 4/5. This would appease the opportunity crowd (myself included) while doing something to improve ram age structure, all done without handing outfitters a blank cheque.


Thoughts?


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[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by dave99

Despite our strong opinions, none of us know exactly what would happen should Alberta go from an OTC sheep tag to a draw.

How could we be so sure without first knowing the numbers that would be allocated to residents and guides as well as the uncontrolled variable of unlicensed hunters?

My best guess is that under a draw, areas with good and relatively easy access within any given WMU will see a downward trend in size of ram harvested, often to well below 4/5 curl, while more remote and overlooked areas will steadily improve. Guides would benefit greatly, because of guaranteed allocations and the decrease in apparent competition due to the drop in average sheep hunter IQ and effort that inevitably occurs under a draw system.

Unfortunately, it looks like we are inching toward a showdown between opportunity and perceived hunt/trophy quality (both in terms of competition from other hunters and possibly trophy size). I say unfortunately, because I see it as a shame to limit opportunity before addressing other variables such as habitat and predation.

Here is a crazy idea: a small number of draw tags on 4/5 curl sheep, and concurrent general OTC tags for anything past full curl, or double broomed 4/5. This would appease the opportunity crowd (myself included) while doing something to improve ram age structure, all done without handing outfitters a blank cheque.


Thoughts?


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Certainly better than a full draw, would love to see more habitat management and predator management with whatever is proposed.

[ram crazy]

From what I’ve heard is draw with 150 tags given out for the province and taking the 4/5 curl and the full curl requirement out and increasing the the tag amount when drawn. I’m not sure what the cost of the tag will be. I think this would hurt the quality of rams and it would make it easier for fish and wildlife officers with the registration of sheep.

[wildwoods]

sheep management has got to be the most divisive topic in our circles. I guess that’s a good thing. People care so they get passionate.

Personally I would like to see incentive to clean up the predators and also see more controlled burns. I’ve talked to some old timers who know the Willmore, for example like their own backyard. I guess way back in time they used to burn out those meadowland valleys to reinvigorate the grass. The ungulates thrived as a result. Now you have valleys so choked full of impassable underbrush and willow. I agree with most that these areas are the low hanging fruit that could be easily remedied with a little elbow grease. Here’s hoping

[walking buffalo]

We went through the regulation options ten years ago.
Nothing new has occurred in the meantime other than proponents of the draw keep pushing their anti-hunting agenda.
Sheep pops are stable, harvest is stable, harvested ram age is right on management goals and is stable....
F&W, we DO NOT have a problem!

Do not forget, or learn it now, the push to put sheep on draw is Only coming from a group of biologists that have constantly pushed for reduced sheep hunting claiming hunting induced harm throughout Alberta and BC, and up north. None of their research conclusions have withstood scrutiny.

Our sheep are doing great, lots of big old rams are being killed each year, and lots of big old rams are not killed each year. There are so many sanctuaries that hunters simply cannot access most of our sheep during hunting seasons.




Ram Crazy is correct that the number of draw tags being discussed is 150.

In other words, a 100% success rate is anticipated.

With over 150,000 eligible hunters in the resident draw, this will instantly be a once in Many lifetimes opportunity.
The only people that can guarantee themselves a chance to hunt Alberta Bighorns will be Non-residents that have enough money.

Just think about what Us Alberta hunters could lose over an unproven claim that hunting is causing a genetic harm to sheep, that our current population of over 6000 bighorns can't handle the 200 rams a year being harvested under current regulations.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

From what I’ve heard is draw with 150 tags given out for the province and taking the 4/5 curl and the full curl requirement out and increasing the the tag amount when drawn. I’m not sure what the cost of the tag will be. I think this would hurt the quality of rams and it would make it easier for fish and wildlife officers with the registration of sheep.

What is your source? Let’s get that established.

[spurly]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We went through the regulation options ten years ago.
Nothing new has occurred in the meantime other than proponents of the draw keep pushing their anti-hunting agenda.
Sheep pops are stable, harvest is stable, harvested ram age is right on management goals and is stable....
F&W, we DO NOT have a problem!

Do not forget, or learn it now, the push to put sheep on draw is Only coming from a group of biologists that have constantly pushed for reduced sheep hunting claiming hunting induced harm throughout Alberta and BC, and up north. None of their research conclusions have withstood scrutiny.

Our sheep are doing great, lots of big old rams are being killed each year, and lots of big old rams are not killed each year. There are so many sanctuaries that hunters simply cannot access most of our sheep during hunting seasons.




Ram Crazy is correct that the number of draw tags being discussed is 150.

In other words, a 100% success rate is anticipated.

With over 150,000 eligible hunters in the resident draw, this will instantly be a once in Many lifetimes opportunity.
The only people that can guarantee themselves a chance to hunt Alberta Bighorns will be Non-residents that have enough money.

Just think about what Us Alberta hunters could lose over an unproven claim that hunting is causing a genetic harm to sheep, that our current population of over 6000 bighorns can't handle the 200 rams a year being harvested under current regulations.

There is another group that will hunt them any time the feel like.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

From what I’ve heard is draw with 150 tags given out for the province and taking the 4/5 curl and the full curl requirement out and increasing the the tag amount when drawn. I’m not sure what the cost of the tag will be. I think this would hurt the quality of rams and it would make it easier for fish and wildlife officers with the registration of sheep.

They better cut the allocations back by 80% if they are going to pull a stunt like that.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

We beat this last time. If this goes through AFGA and WSFAB will have completely us Albertans.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by chuck

What is your source? Let’s get that established.

A good friend of mine who sits in the meetings.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We went through the regulation options ten years ago.
Nothing new has occurred in the meantime other than proponents of the draw keep pushing their anti-hunting agenda.
Sheep pops are stable, harvest is stable, harvested ram age is right on management goals and is stable....
F&W, we DO NOT have a problem!

Do not forget, or learn it now, the push to put sheep on draw is Only coming from a group of biologists that have constantly pushed for reduced sheep hunting claiming hunting induced harm throughout Alberta and BC, and up north. None of their research conclusions have withstood scrutiny.

Our sheep are doing great, lots of big old rams are being killed each year, and lots of big old rams are not killed each year. There are so many sanctuaries that hunters simply cannot access most of our sheep during hunting seasons.




Ram Crazy is correct that the number of draw tags being discussed is 150.

In other words, a 100% success rate is anticipated.

With over 150,000 eligible hunters in the resident draw, this will instantly be a once in Many lifetimes opportunity.
The only people that can guarantee themselves a chance to hunt Alberta Bighorns will be Non-residents that have enough money.

Just think about what Us Alberta hunters could lose over an unproven claim that hunting is causing a genetic harm to sheep, that our current population of over 6000 bighorns can't handle the 200 rams a year being harvested under current regulations.

This is spot on! There is absolutely nothing wrong with our sheep in this province.

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

This is spot on! There is absolutely nothing wrong with our sheep in this province.

Ok then can all those guys quit bitching about predators being a problem then.

[WhiteTailAB]

When is this supposed to go to draw?

[LJalberta]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We went through the regulation options ten years ago.
Nothing new has occurred in the meantime other than proponents of the draw keep pushing their anti-hunting agenda.
Sheep pops are stable, harvest is stable, harvested ram age is right on management goals and is stable....
F&W, we DO NOT have a problem!

Do not forget, or learn it now, the push to put sheep on draw is Only coming from a group of biologists that have constantly pushed for reduced sheep hunting claiming hunting induced harm throughout Alberta and BC, and up north. None of their research conclusions have withstood scrutiny.

Our sheep are doing great, lots of big old rams are being killed each year, and lots of big old rams are not killed each year. There are so many sanctuaries that hunters simply cannot access most of our sheep during hunting seasons.




Ram Crazy is correct that the number of draw tags being discussed is 150.

In other words, a 100% success rate is anticipated.

With over 150,000 eligible hunters in the resident draw, this will instantly be a once in Many lifetimes opportunity.
The only people that can guarantee themselves a chance to hunt Alberta Bighorns will be Non-residents that have enough money.

Just think about what Us Alberta hunters could lose over an unproven claim that hunting is causing a genetic harm to sheep, that our current population of over 6000 bighorns can't handle the 200 rams a year being harvested under current regulations.

I couldn't agree more.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

A good friend of mine who sits in the meetings.

Who? And in what meetings?

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by chuck

Who? And in what meetings?

I asked him the same question on a different thread about a month ago. Never got an answer.

[Acesneights]

Just for the record as I am a director for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta. As of right now we do not believe in any regulations changes. We have had meetings with government and they have ensured us that there is no change in the foreseeable future. If you have any questions or concerns for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta feel free to email info@wsfab.org and become a member to stay up to date with monthly email blasts and newsletters keeping membership informed. Anything other than what I just stated is speculation and I will not comment further on this forum.

[Bluedog]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Just for the record as I am a director for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta. As of right now we do not believe in any regulations changes. We have had meetings with government and they have ensured us that there is no change in the foreseeable future. If you have any questions or concerns for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta feel free to email info@wsfab.org and become a member to stay up to date with monthly email blasts and newsletters keeping membership informed. Anything other than what I just stated is speculation and I will not comment further on this forum.

Two Thumbs up! 👍🏼👍🏼
Thanks for the update Acesneights
Bluedog

[Family Hunter]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Just for the record as I am a director for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta. As of right now we do not believe in any regulations changes. We have had meetings with government and they have ensured us that there is no change in the foreseeable future. If you have any questions or concerns for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta feel free to email info@wsfab.org and become a member to stay up to date with monthly email blasts and newsletters keeping membership informed. Anything other than what I just stated is speculation and I will not comment further on this forum.

My son and I both just joined
Thanks for the great update
FH

[dustinjoels]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

They better cut the allocations back by 80% if they are going to pull a stunt like that.

For draw species aren’t outfitter allocations set at 10%? Wouldn’t this reduce the outfitter tags to only 15 sheep province wide? I can’t see how this would be good for outfitters.

[WhiteTailAB]

Originally Posted by dustinjoels

For draw species aren’t outfitter allocations set at 10%? Wouldn’t this reduce the outfitter tags to only 15 sheep province wide? I can’t see how this would be good for outfitters.

What's better, pleasing outfitters or pleasing resident hunters?

[dustinjoels]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

What's better, pleasing outfitters or pleasing resident hunters?

I was just referring to everyone saying outfitters would love if it went to draw. But based on a 10% allocation, I don’t see how that makes sense.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by dustinjoels

For draw species aren’t outfitter allocations set at 10%? Wouldn’t this reduce the outfitter tags to only 15 sheep province wide? I can’t see how this would be good for outfitters.

Allocation for Sheep is currently set on a "gentlemans" agreement of around 20% of Resident harvest, limited to north of the Bow River.

The new draft Allocation Policy discussions has an attempt to set the allocation to be 20% with a possibility of including the area south of the Bow River.

Outfitters would possibly lose some allocations if Sheep went on draw for residents.

Outfitters would probably gain business from Residents looking to do all they can to fill a truly once in a lifetime tag.


There is a set of changes proposed in the draft Allocation Policy that could eliminate ALL Outfitter allocations for sheep. Few to no one seems to be aware or at least discussing this perfect storm....

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Just for the record as I am a director for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta. As of right now we do not believe in any regulations changes. We have had meetings with government and they have ensured us that there is no change in the foreseeable future. If you have any questions or concerns for Wild Sheep Foundation Alberta feel free to email info@wsfab.org and become a member to stay up to date with monthly email blasts and newsletters keeping membership informed. Anything other than what I just stated is speculation and I will not comment further on this forum.

Sorry to hear this from you....

When We fought like lions to save sheep from going on draw (before your tenure), the key to our success was open dialogue, sharing info with the Whole hunting community and loud voices.


You're pretty much offering the opposite....

[dustinjoels]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Allocation for Sheep is currently set on a "gentlemans" agreement of around 20% of Resident harvest, limited to north of the Bow River.

The new draft Allocation Policy discussions has an attempt to set the allocation to be 20% with a possibility of including the area south of the Bow River.

Outfitters would possibly lose some allocations if Sheep went on draw for residents.

Outfitters would probably gain business from Residents looking to do all they can to fill a truly once in a lifetime tag.


There is a set of changes proposed in the draft Allocation Policy that could eliminate ALL Outfitter allocations for sheep. Few to no one seems to be aware or at least discussing this perfect storm....

Thanks for the information.